What do you think of Spoilers?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Dr. Pepper,

So:

Luke... I am your father

references from The Empire Strikes Back should always be spoiler tagged?

[smegma]

No one is preventing discussion; that's what I find to be absolutely mind-numbing about this debate. Just be mindful and respectful and spoiler-tag your shit, or create a separate thread for spoiler discussions. When I post on Facebook about something, I first warn my friends. It's not that friggen hard.

[Dr. Pepper]

What are common examples of forcing it?

If you mean stuff like just blurting out "Hey, the butler did it" then yeh i agree that's just being an ass.

Basically, yeah. General references and metaphors aren't the same as forcing a specific plot point on to someone who doesn't want it. "Luke, I am your father" is meaningless to someone who hasn't seen Star Wars and/or doesn't know what Star Wars is. To use myself as an example, I grew up with very little tv and in an area where the banned book list was one of the longest. I earned little social currency in my childhood. I didn't know what "Luke, I am your father" meant for years, merely learned the appropriate times it is said. Thankfully, no one came up to me and said "Hey, Star Wars is blah blah blah blah blah and it ends with Blah blah blah blah" until I was able to determine whether or not it was something I wanted to see.

I mean, this isn't some exact science or anything. It's fairly basic and extends to most areas of human interaction. You don't force things on people when they don't want it. Accidents happen, no big deal.

[eyenon15]

No one is preventing discussion; that's what I find to be absolutely mind-numbing about this debate. Just be mindful and respectful and spoiler-tag your shit, or create a separate thread for spoiler discussions. When I post on Facebook about something, I first warn my friends. It's not that friggen hard.

I certainly think it's stopping open discussion but I repeat Ser Scots question to this.

[Dr. Pepper]

I certainly think it's stopping open discussion but I repeat Ser Scots question to this.

What are you being prevented from talking about here on this forum? There are subforums for nearly every topic, thousands of threads for every sub-topic. You can start a thread for any movie or show, book, or game you can think of. If you're tired of that, there's a general forum where almost anything goes- from politics to gender identity to mental health to the art of being a coffee snob. Like, just because this isn't a thread where you can discuss the plot points of X book doesn't mean open discussion is somehow prevented. It means that this is a different conversation, one not intended to spoiler bomb whatever the fuck you want.

PS: You can totally make a spoiler bomb thread, if that's what you want.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Dr. Pepper,

So:

Luke... I am your father

references from The Empire Strikes Back should always be spoiler tagged?

Is it really that useful to search for the most ubiquitous pop culture references possible to assure yourself that some spoiler is acceptable? Does this meaningfully apply to the vast majority of cases? Does it apply to the case at hand- an as yet unfinished series?

[eyenon15]

What are you being prevented from talking about here on this forum? There are subforums for nearly every topic, thousands of threads for every sub-topic. You can start a thread for any movie or show, book, or game you can think of. If you're tired of that, there's a general forum where almost anything goes- from politics to gender identity to mental health to the art of being a coffee snob. Like, just because this isn't a thread where you can discuss the plot points of X book doesn't mean open discussion is somehow prevented. It means that this is a different conversation, one not intended to spoiler bomb whatever the fuck you want.

PS: You can totally make a spoiler bomb thread, if that's what you want.

Whatever one thinks is a spoiler is what's being prevented. If you're talking about spoiler tagging 30 year old shit that seems crazy to me.

[smegma]

Seriously, does spoiler tagging really affect your enjoyment of life? If you think that's a nuisance, try considering how spoilers do affect one's enthusiasm and enjoyment in creating their own experience.

It comes down to being a reasonable, conscientious person. If that concept escapes you, then perhaps you have larger concerns.

[eyenon15]

Seriously, does spoiler tagging really affect your enjoyment of life? If you think that's a nuisance, try considering how spoilers do affect one's enthusiasm and enjoyment in creating their own experience.

It comes down to being a reasonable, conscientious person. If that concept escapes you, then perhaps you have larger concerns.

Spoiler tagging is a mild inconvenience yes. when and where to use them more so.

[Relic]

Spoiler tagging is a mild inconvenience yes. when and where to use them more so.

Seriously? You need to get the Fuck off the Internet, in that case.

[eyenon15]

Seriously? You need to get the Fuck off the Internet, in that case.

That's gangster

[smegma]

Spoiler tagging is a mild inconvenience yes. when and where to use them more so.

Well then prepare to have people block your posts to avoid you, since your extraordinarily mild inconvenience is more important than respectfully engaging in discussion.

[eyenon15]

Yes, I'll prepare for the massive waves of Mutumbo like rejections

[smegma]

Obviously I'll be missing some compelling conversation. Woe is me.

[Relic]

That's gangster

I'd say it's more sad, than anything. If typing "spoilers" twice and using 4 brackets and a slash is inconvenient you should probably give up typing altogether.

[ab aeterno]

In my opinion, the issue lies with the problem lies with the following

1) we can't really know what size the minority without further inquiry.

2) ''reasonable judgement'' is difficult to apply in many situations because you can't be aware of of cultural paradigms - e.g. while Peterbound is adamant that Citizen Kane is seen by many as ''the greatest American movie'', you yourself pointed out that it's probably not as well known here in the UK, let alone abroad.

In which case, wouldn't it just be easier to either ask or spoiler tag your remarks? That's not a huge inhibition, imo.

In a thread like this? Sure. On most internet forums? Yes, that's fair enough for the most part. In a chat room, or anywhere online or offline with free-flowing, informal conversation? It's less practical.

Reasonable judgement isn't easy to apply, but it's the basis of pretty much all social interaction. As for knowing the size of the minority, we won't always get it right, but we can make a fair approximation. I think it's very unlikely that anyone would be upset by the mention that (spoiler tags for the sake of being pedantic in this specific discussion)

Dorothy's house gets dropped on a witch,

but identifying the character involved in a certain event in To Kill a Mockingbird would be far more likely to cause consternation.

Generally speaking, all that I'm saying is that it's reasonable to be aware of your surroundings and audience in a manner that is proportionate to the novelty and general knowledge of the spoilers you're discussing, and like Dr. Pepper says, being considerate and conscientious of others is a basic part of human interaction. On the other hand, if you're either not directly involved in a conversation, *or* don't make people aware that you're trying to avoid specific (or even general) spoilers, it's not fair (IMO) to get upset at people who have every right to discuss those sorts of things, even if we feel they could have been more considerate.

On a forum like this, erring on the side of caution is fair enough, given the simplicity of adding spoiler tags, but at the same time, would you expect me to put something like the (tongue in cheek) Shakespeare spoilers I posted before in spoiler tags? Whichever way you slice it, IMO it comes back to reasonable judgement, because a blanket prohibition on any spoilers of any kind would be unrealistic, impracticable and rather silly, in the case of some examples that have been posted previously in this thread.

ETA: For a TL;DR version: I think people should be considerate of others, not go out of their way to spoil things, and use reasonable judgement, but in public places/informal discussions/discussions with no set topic(s), there is no right not to be spoiled.

[Fragile Bird]

Speaking of GRRM's attitude, this story just popped up on my Facebook news feed:

In one intriguing new wrinkle, Martin says he just came up with a big, revealing twist on a long-time character that he never previously considered. “This is going to drive your readers crazy,” he teases, “but I love it. I’m still weighing whether to go that direction or not. It’s a great twist. It’s easy to do things that are shocking or unexpected, but they have to grow out of characters. They have to grow out of situations. Otherwise, it’s just being shocking for being shocking. But this is something that seems very organic and natural, and I could see how it would happen. And with the various three, four characters involved… it all makes sense. But it’s nothing I’ve ever thought of before. And it’s nothing they can do in the show, because the show has already—on this particular character—made a couple decisions that will preclude it, where in my case I have not made those decisions.”

But you'll have to wait for the book.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/03/george-rr-martin-winds-date

[eyenon15]

I'd say it's more sad, than anything. If typing "spoilers" twice and using 4 brackets and a slash is inconvenient you should probably give up typing altogether.

thanks, just what i needed! everyone should have a hostile stranger police their activities.

[ab aeterno]

You could have edited *before* I read :P

I could have, but I wanted to make you work for it.

Also, fwiw if you are using spoiler tags you should probably tell us what the spoiler is for :P

So now you want me to not only spoiler tag things but also to type out the entire name of the piece of work that I'm spoiling? That is such an unreasonable imposition.

Although in this case, I was only spoiler tagging it for the sake of completeness, because I really feel that that spoiler is not one worth worrying about. Personally, I wouldn't feel too bad for spoiling that part of The Wizard of Oz, judge me for that if you like. :P

I see what you're saying wrt free-flowing informal conversation - although you should remember that in the IRC chat that you moderate, we generally get by pretty well not spoiling the many topics that come up.

Yes, but that is aided by the relatively small number of participants and my constantly telling people to avoid spoilers whenever a spoilerish topic comes up. I only allow and encourage fake spoilers. :devil:

I think to some extent the onus of avoiding spoilers lies on all participants of an informal conversation - if it's unreasonable for someone to moderate their speech entirely (although I really don't think this is much of an inhibition), then they should at least give some warning in terms of context. I know I personally spend a lot of time shouting ''wait, no spoilers!'' or something if I see something is coming up in conversation, and I don't feel like this is a difficulty for me so long as I'm given fair opportunity to make my opinion clear.

I mostly agree, but I think it comes down to judgement again, and other factors such as whether you're directly involved in the conversation or just a bystander. My view is that if you're directly involved, and the spoiler is from a topic that people will generally assume you're familiar with (Star Wars is a good example,) then the onus is probably more on you to make it known. If it's not a topic that people will generally assume everyone's familiar with, there is more onus on the people bringing up the spoiler.

That's just my take on things, to be honest, and I don't mind if people take different views on that. But yes, generally as a minimum mention that you're about to spoil something, in all but the most obvious/well known cases. I wouldn't warn people I'm about to spoil Empire, for example, unless I knew there was someone around who hadn't seen Star Wars.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Leap,

I will not use such spoilers in casual conversation regarding works that have not created metaphores that have moved into common parlance like "Achilles heel". Any "spoiler bombs" that I've droped have been regarding very old classic works of literature or historical events that everyone should know about.

Dr. Pepper,

Have I done something to personally offend you? Your few interactions with me have been very antagonistic and I'm curious as to why.

Scot the Achilles Heel example doesn't even work.

Warning: Illiad spoilers

It's just a term for a weakness or vulnerability. And you could explain what it means without giving away the story: "Achilles mother dipped him into the River Styxx as a baby, making him invulnerable everywhere the River touched his skin. His heel, where she held him, remained the only part of his body that could be harmed" That doesn't say that Paris kills him with an Apollo guided arrow.