R+L=J v.138

[RumHam]

Stuff about the show really doesn't belong on this sub-forum at all.

[Ser Creighton]

amazing i quote

But when, in one lovely scene in this new season, two characters find themselves in an old, old crypt and one of them shares a faraway memory with the other, one that has grander implications than they can likely imagine (but we can!), the series whispers with Martins same melancholy magic.

i think i made a strike only seing the trailer. it is indeed sansa that is being told the truth first

Your new and sj4iy is right your quote should be in spoilers, this is the book forum and it's sort of a rule. Just click edit on your post and add [ spoiler ] quote and then [ /spoiler ]. Just lose the spaces between the word spoilers and the brackets [ and all will be good.

Even though most of us have read the books and know a lot some prefer not to be spoiled on the show changes.

Example

There are actually 2 Ser Creightons in the books, I am neither, I Ser Creighton number 3, because 3 is the magic number for a proper Ser Creighton.

[Ser Creighton]

Stuff about the show really doesn't belong on this sub-forum at all.

I have seen the mods say they understand it will happen, but ask that spoiler quotes be used. That person has like 5 posts, just a honest mistake, it happens all the time in the books section.

[sj4iy]

I have seen the mods say they understand it will happen, but ask that spoiler quotes be used. That person has like 5 posts, just a honest mistake, it happens all the time in the books section.

Agreed. This stuff is going to seep in- I don't really care that people are talking about show stuff, I just was pointing out that it should be in spoiler quotes for those who don't want to know just yet. It was an honest mistake, though...no real harm done.

[Ser Creighton]

Agreed. This stuff is going to seep in- I don't really care that people are talking about show stuff, I just was pointing out that it should be in spoiler quotes for those who don't want to know just yet. It was an honest mistake, though...no real harm done.

Oh I totally know that sj4iy, I just saw 5 posts and figured they probably didn't know the rules and may not know how to do spoiler tags, not that I am an expert, but I thought I would at least try and help. The mods say if I am nice for a whole year to people I get a cookie. Only 364 days to go. Wait, hold on, I see a Dany hate thread and... only 365 days to go.

I can't say I am great with spoiler tags myself, the last time I used one before today was probably months ago.

Disclaimer: The mods never said that to me about the cookie, and there was no Dany hate thread, it is only part of a joke, that the wonderful mods should not take any offense too, because they are wonderful and I am... well lets face it, I am a pain in the ass.

[JonSnow4President]

Oh I totally know that sj4iy, I just saw 5 posts and figured they probably didn't know the rules and may not know how to do spoiler tags, not that I am an expert, but I thought I would at least try and help. The mods say if I am nice for a whole year to people I get a cookie. Only 364 days to go. Wait, hold on, I see a Dany hate thread and... only 365 days to go.

I can't say I am great with spoiler tags myself, the last time I used one before today was probably months ago.

Disclaimer: The mods never said that to me about the cookie, and there was no Dany hate thread, it is only part of a joke, that the wonderful mods should not take any offense too, because they are wonderful and I am... well lets face it, I am a pain in the ass.

Are they using a 365.25 day year, or just the leap year 365, 365, 365, 366 convention? I feel like that could make a big difference.

[sj4iy]

Oh I totally know that sj4iy, I just saw 5 posts and figured they probably didn't know the rules and may not know how to do spoiler tags, not that I am an expert, but I thought I would at least try and help. The mods say if I am nice for a whole year to people I get a cookie. Only 364 days to go. Wait, hold on, I see a Dany hate thread and... only 365 days to go.

I can't say I am great with spoiler tags myself, the last time I used one before today was probably months ago.

Disclaimer: The mods never said that to me about the cookie, and there was no Dany hate thread, it is only part of a joke, that the wonderful mods should not take any offense too, because they are wonderful and I am... well lets face it, I am a pain in the ass.

I think we all are, to some degree.

I certainly can be a smart ass when the situation seems ripe for it XD But I do try to not be mean...especially to newbies who don't know the rules around here ^^

[BearQueen87]

I'm not a mod, but I'll give you a cookie, Ser Creighton, just for all the stories.

[markg171]

That's how I always thought it was. It was stated that Elia loved Rhaegar, it seems he was a good man and it was hard not to love him, but he didn't love her back, unfortunately. At ToJ he was for the first time happy and as you said "living". The prophecy obsession just could become even stronger since Lyanna was a descendants of the Kings of Winter (the Pact of Ice and Fire and I think that Rhaegar being a great reader could know about it).

It should probably be pointed out that the quote is actually this:

It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory.

Nothing says that Rhaegar called it the tower of HIS joy, though this is how the majority of people tend to treat this line as if that was how it was written. The reality is that Rhaegar just called it a tower of joy, and we have no idea why the tower was joyful, or who made it joyful.

[JonSnow4President]

I'm not a mod, but I'll give you a cookie, Ser Creighton, just for all the stories.

I'll give you 2 cookies, just so you love me more than Bear Queen.

Edit: Just realized I have lofthouse sugar cookies (those incredibly soft, sweet, iced sugar cookies), Blue Bell ice cream (if you're from the South, you understand), and M&M's to top it all off. I think dessert is going to be very good tonight.

[BearQueen87]

It should probably be pointed out that the quote is actually this:

Nothing says that Rhaegar called it the tower of HIS joy, though this is how the majority of people tend to treat this line as if that was how it was written. The reality is that Rhaegar just called it a tower of joy, and we have no idea why the tower was joyful, or who made it joyful.

It was Whent, obviously. That guy was a chuckle a minute. He lit up any room he walked into.

No, pipe down Lyanna. I'm sure this has nothing to do with you.

I'll give you 2 cookies, just so you love me more than Bear Queen.

This means war.

[JonSnow4President]

It was Whent, obviously. That guy was a chuckle a minute. He lit up any room he walked into.

No, pipe down Lyanna. I'm sure this has nothing to do with you.

This means war.

My wildlings and I will bring it.

We shall call it the War for Ser Creighton's Stories. Or maybe a Dance for Creighton?

[markg171]

I respectfully disagree on this one, because there is another companion piece that Pascal narrated that goes into the history of the Targaryen and the Martells which openly state that Elia did love Rhaegar and that even he, Oberyn couldn't sway her.

While I might have agreed with this early on, it seems that Martin, at this point in his writing is utilizing a lot of venues for his "information dump." I think in the early books, he couldn't have the characters Martell have a POV on Rhaegar and Elia because it was too soon to give away clues, and there was no way to have Ned, or the Martells really give any information without giving away those clues, as well as the fact the actors are openly talking if not joking about it, so I think he thinks "its time."

The closest we get finally is aDwD and Selmys telling Dany as did Aerys and Rhaella, so too did Rhaegar marry for duty. Martin still has yet to flesh out the relationship between Rhaegar and Aerys, but we are getting hints.

You mean the piece where Oberyn says that Rhaegar specifically picked Elia to be his wife and that Oberyn couldn't fend off Rhaegar's advances as he had so many others (as in Rhaegar fought to be with Elia)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UycBLmPYPUc

Because that piece paints a very different picture than what you're saying it did, so I think you must have mixed it up with something else. Especially seeing as it's full of completely contradictory information from the books so it can't be fleshing out the story.

[The Dames do Moan]

In the matter of Jon's legitimacy, does it even really matter if R+L weren't married? Seeing as if Robb's Will comes back to the fold Jon has already been legitimized?

[markg171]

In the matter of Jon's legitimacy, does it even really matter if R+L weren't married? Seeing as if Robb's Will comes back to the fold Jon has already been legitimized?

Legitimized as a Stark though.

[The Dames do Moan]

Ok, wasn't sure if it was just like a blanket legitimization, like JS is now legitimized. Or JS is now legitimized as a Stark.

[Ser Creighton]

Well thanks for the love you two but know wars, Ser Creighton has had his share of wars and prefers to avoid them, even if he does get to be the blue rose of R+L=J thread. There is a question I think I will pose, and while it may not be a popular question, I think it is a valid one. I like to come at anything from multiple angles because you never know what you will find, and any subject should be open to scrutiny. Including this one.

But first I am going to watch this video that is being talked about. Because it does relate and while I can't say if it is canon or not, becaue I don't know it is very interesting. Though I don't think Alia misrepresented as she did not give a break down of the video just paraphrased a brief section.

So the question is this, did Rhaegar love Lyanna or did he want to love Lyanna?

Now a few things stand out in that video, one was that he was looking for a princess. In fact a point made in the video is that the Dornish could keep their titles of prince and princesses. And Rhaegar came pursuing her, though I am sure his mom had a connection to it. Another point made is that Elia was a flower without thornes, and that really ties to HH. Now Oberyn points out he was very protective of his sister who appears to be very innocent and sweet. Now I do tend to work a lot with symbolism and that will still be the case here. I have a Targaryen princess with sun symbolism and Targaryen blood. The mothers worked the match.

He locked her in the red keep and they were surrounded by false friends. Now I have to remember this video is shot from the perspective of Oberyn, Elia did want to go, at least at first. It seems to indicate a lack of love by him. So why pursue the match? Given some of the stuff we know of prophecies this seems to be fitting in very well with that. He may have even known about Sun and moon. From his perspective Lyanna was a cold person and Rhaegar stole her away. Rhaegar is called faithless? Faith in what? He makes Dorne seem ideal in a way but I do believe they did keep their word, and I don't think they could of done anything to change Aerys actions towards Elia. Intresting that they say Robert would have basically been killed if he ever set foot in Dorne, but Ned did just that, while the war was still on.

Now of course this is all the TV perspective so it is not the exact same, but it does matter to an extent, as we know where they get their material from, or at least who.

So when it comes to Rhaegar I always seem to find things come back to prophecy. Now I can't say if he loved Lyanna or not, but I think he wanted too, I think he thought there was something to it and prophecy. Now prophecies are dangerous things, and I don't think there is anything that changes that with Rhaegar. But aside from Selmy pointing out Love and Duty, Aemon as well, Selmy is not sure Rhaegar could love anyone (I think I don't remember the exact quote and there is a doom about him (I think the doom relates to a future threat). Aemon releates that he was very much into prophecy. I think Rhaegar probably studied as much as he could on the subject and that prophecies with Dragons and lightbinger, Azor, the Prince, maybe things like Sun and moon were all part of it.

If I learned anything from Dune and Martins series it's that prophesies can be confusing and very dangerous, they can corrupt a person (Mel), take over thier lives if they are not careful. Duty with Rhaegar was pointed out, even for a guy who went missing, but that does not mean he did not think he was doing his duty. He just may have felt his duty was not what others though it should be. Like the naming of the tower of Joy almost feels like he was strying to make it about love. But I do tend to feel he was trapped within a prophecy. Not evil, but maybe misguided, obssesive, and perhaps corrupted by the idea or desire to make it happen.

I know popular opinion is a love story here, but it always ends up coming back to prophecy for me when I look at it. Believe me I would much rather have a love story here, because could something just be nice for once. But I don't know if that is true. I think there is a love story in the books but again I think that relates to the future, not the past.

I am not writing this or asking this question because I want to upset anyone, but I do think it is a valid question. I wonder if he may have seduced her similar to Elia, you never know. maybe both woman loved him but his focus was duty, and in the end that is what he did, he did his duty and died doing it. It's amazing how toxic things became in reguards to Rhaegar, Summerhall, Harenhal, his father, his family, his wife Elia, his children, Lyanna, his relationship with Robert, the KG, the Mountain, everyting he touched. Look at JonCon is that a healthy person? His obsession of course being Rhaegar. Not that I think he is evil but it reminds me a lot of Paul from Dune. What can happen when one is trapped within a prophecy. Everything he seemed to be working on self destructed and the fire went out in Westeros.

[RumHam]

Ok, wasn't sure if it was just like a blanket legitimization, like JS is now legitimized. Or JS is now legitimized as a Stark.

I suppose it would depend on how Robb's decree was worded. Another problem is that most people probably wouldn't recognize any of Robbs kingly decrees.

[BearQueen87]

Well thanks for the love you two but know wars, Ser Creighton has had his share of wars and prefers to avoid them, even if he does get to be the blue rose of R+L=J thread. There is a question I think I will pose, and while it may not be a popular question, I think it is a valid one. I like to come at anything from multiple angles because you never know what you will find, and any subject should be open to scrutiny. Including this one.

But first I am going to watch this video that is being talked about. Because it does relate and while I can't say if it is canon or not, becaue I don't know it is very interesting. Though I don't think Alia misrepresented as she did not give a break down of the video just paraphrased a brief section.

So the question is this, did Rhaegar love Lyanna or did he want to love Lyanna?

He loved her. Now get away from me with your thought provoking questions, heathen.

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

I suppose it would depend on how Robb's decree was worded.

In what way?