R+L=J v.138

[sj4iy]

sj4iy--

Glad to see you have not stuff strictly to your hiatus (but I guess technically, the show has not started yet). I agree 100% with your analysis regarding the distinction between polygamy and divorce/broken marriage contract.

Thanks. I'm more of a lurker than a poster right now, but I'm still contributing a bit ^^

I don't think Elia or the Dornish would be thrilled about the arrangement...but I do think that with her being unable to bear anymore children, it would be understandable from a political point of view. And as long as Aegon was still first in line for the throne, Dorne would just back off and let Rhaegar do as he wished.

[Lord Varys]

The line of succession could only be determined after Rhaegar became king. As Prince of Dragonstone Rhaegar could not promise anything. And from a dynastic POV it's not only about Elia's children vs. Lyanna's it is also Lyanna's children vs. Elia's grandchildren. Maegor usurped the throne and killed two of Aenys' sons. How should Elia know that Lyanna's son(s) aren't going to try to pull off something like that? Catelyn even fears that Jon Snow might do something like that to Robb's children.

Plenty of people blame Viserys I for the Dance because he took a second wife. I now say that any sane person at court would have seen the danger and feared the future had Rhaegar truly risen to the Iron Throne as a polygamist. And Rhaegar would have done nothing to prevent a war for succession as he believed all his children were heads of the dragon. He could not possibly have made one of the them a maester or a septon, or could he? The idea that half-siblings would have grown up as close friends if they had two different mothers who both would have vied for the king's favor makes little sense. Rhaenys and Visenya were sisters and even they were rivals. Why the hell should we even entertain the notion that Elia would have ever liked Lyanna after what Rhaegar had done to her at Harrenhal - public humiliation and all?

[sj4iy]

The line of succession could only be determined after Rhaegar became king. As Prince of Dragonstone Rhaegar could not promise anything. And from a dynastic POV it's not only about Elia's children vs. Lyanna's it is also Lyanna's children vs. Elia's grandchildren. Maegor usurped the throne and killed two of Aenys' sons. How should Elia know that Lyanna's son(s) aren't going to try to pull off something like that? Catelyn even fears that Jon Snow might do something like that to Robb's children.

Plenty of people blame Viserys I for the Dance because he took a second wife. I now say that any sane person at court would have seen the danger and feared the future had Rhaegar truly risen to the Iron Throne as a polygamist. And Rhaegar would have done nothing to prevent a war for succession as he believed all his children were heads of the dragon. He could not possibly have made one of the them a maester or a septon, or could he? The idea that half-siblings would have grown up as close friends if they had two different mothers who both would have vied for the king's favor makes little sense. Rhaenys and Visenya were sisters and even they were rivals. Why the hell should we even entertain the notion that Elia would have ever liked Lyanna after what Rhaegar had done to her at Harrenhal - public humiliation and all?

So? That argument could pretty much be applied to EVERYONE and ANY TIME. It's a hypothetical of something that never happened. Aegon was heir to the throne. Dorne wasn't going to cause shit unless that changed at some point. It never did change, which is why they supported the crown in Robert's Rebellion.

They could absolutely have hated the marriage arrangement and any siblings that came from it, but that doesn't mean they are stupid enough to jeopardize their direct link to the Iron Throne- not while Aegon was a child, anyway.

[Lord Varys]

Aegon was Rhaegar's heir, not the heir to the Iron Throne. And Dorne did refuse to support the Targaryens throughout most of the war. There are hints that Doran only sent men when Aerys took Elia and her children hostage - of threatened to harm them should he not comply. It is confirmed that Aerys blatantly told Prince Lewyn that he would better go out there and take command or else his niece and their children would pay the price.

It is kind of odd that the Dornishmen did not attack the Stormlands, don't you think? Or joined Jon Connington's army later on...

[sj4iy]

Aegon was Rhaegar's heir, not the heir to the Iron Throne.

Oh, goody. Nitpicking.

Same. Damn. Thing. And I'm not going to get into semantics about it.

And Dorne did refuse to support the Targaryens throughout most of the war.

They still supported them. Because of Aegon and Elia. Why would that change under Rhaegar? It wouldn't, as long as Aegon was still in line for the throne.

There are hints that Doran only sent men when Aerys took Elia and her children hostage - of threatened to harm them should he not comply.

And how do you know exactly when they were taken hostage? Because it certainly isn't told to us anywhere in the text. So this is an unsupported claim.

It is confirmed that Aerys blatantly told Prince Lewyn that he would better go out there and take command or else his niece and their children would pay the price.

And? Aerys was mad. And this was war. I don't see how this foreshadows the political situation with Rhaegar, who is, you know, not mad...and polygamy, which is, you know, not war.

It is kind of odd that the Dornishmen did not attack the Stormlands, don't you think? Or joined Jon Connington's army later on...

Again...you're trying to use what Dorne did during Robert's Rebellion as some sort of indicator of how they would react to Rhaegar marrying a second wife. It's not analogous in any way.

The book keeps telling us that Doran isn't stupid...I'm having a difficult time believing it, but I guess I should believe the author. So, if it's not stupid, then he wouldn't want to start shit over Rhaegar taking a second wife when it doesn't immediately impact Aegon's chances for the throne. Now, if at some point in the future, any children of Rhaegar and Lyanna's union threatened Aegon's right to rule, then there would be reason to act. There's absolutely NO reason to act in the situation of a polygamous marriage.

But I'm tired of fighting this argument. It's pointless. Rhaegar isn't going to not marry Lyanna because of what Dorne MIGHT do if he truly believes marrying her is necessary. So it shouldn't factor into the whole 'were they married?' discussion in the first place. We'll know soon enough for sure, anyway. I'm content to leave it until then.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

And how do you know exactly when they were taken hostage? Because it certainly isn't told to us anywhere in the text. So this is an unsupported claim.

Well, yesterday I asked this

Would the fact that Doran was very slow to lend aid to the Targaryens, only sending men when Rhaegar returned from the south, be a suggestion that Elia became Aerys' hostage only shortly before Rhaegar's return (or possibly only after)?

But so far, no one has voiced their opinion on the issue...

[Ygrain]

and a nod to popular theories about Jon Snow’s parentage.

So, Ashara and FMD finally make it into the show? :P

[Gala]

If Jon is who he is, he likely was conceived at a time when Rhaegar was actually living, maybe for the first time in his life, and the Tower of Joy sounds like he was living.

That's how I always thought it was. It was stated that Elia loved Rhaegar, it seems he was a good man and it was hard not to love him, but he didn't love her back, unfortunately. At ToJ he was for the first time happy and as you said "living". The prophecy obsession just could become even stronger since Lyanna was a descendants of the Kings of Winter (the Pact of Ice and Fire and I think that Rhaegar being a great reader could know about it).

[Gala]

My gut tells me that John is the son of Ed Stark and Ashara Dayne. John is the sword of the morning. R + L = Edric Dayne

Though I like RLJ theory, there could be other alternatives.

Recently I've had an idea: Lyanna give birth to a boy, who Ned took with him, but switched the baby with Ashara's child (what if she gave birth to twins and the girl was dead or actually not dead and is Allyria Dayne-we don't know how old she is, only that she is not old enough to marry Beric in the GoT). Ashara is septa Lemore and fAegon is actually Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. And Jon is either Ned's or Brandon's son by Ashara. All this story is quite complicated enough for Ned to conceal any info about Jon's mother. I know this "alternative" is a bit crazy and too complicated.

Also "Wylla" name is mentioned by Ned Dayne. It was a common knowledge among Daynes that Ned Stark's bastard was Wylla's son, may be she was also only his wet nurse (It seems there are a lot of we do not know between Daynes and Stark, not mentioning the mutual respect even now, so many years later, it seems Daynes speak good about Ned even though he killed Arthur).

[Gala]

Aegon was Rhaegar's heir, not the heir to the Iron Throne. And Dorne did refuse to support the Targaryens throughout most of the war. There are hints that Doran only sent men when Aerys took Elia and her children hostage - of threatened to harm them should he not comply. It is confirmed that Aerys blatantly told Prince Lewyn that he would better go out there and take command or else his niece and their children would pay the price.

It is kind of odd that the Dornishmen did not attack the Stormlands, don't you think? Or joined Jon Connington's army later on...

Yes, I agree with you here. It also seems that Martells never blamed Starks for anything (may be they see them as victims, who knows). It was Lannisters they hated and blamed for murder of Elia and her children. Though, according to TV show Oberyn there is some bitterness about Rhaegar and his actions ("Elia loved him, but he ran off with another woman"-wasn't that too strange coming from the Dornish prince, who has 8 bastard daughters, though he is not married, of course). I think that Oberyn should have known Rhaegar and Elia's marriage wasn't a love match, though, of course, it does not justify any of Rhaegar's actions, but Dorn understands passion better then other place.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Though I like RLJ theory, there could be other alternatives.

Sure, we discuss R+L=J here, but do care for the alternative.

Recently I've had an idea: Lyanna give birth to a boy, who Ned took with him, but switched the baby with Ashara's child (what if she gave birth to twins and the girl was dead or actually not dead and is Allyria Dayne-we don't know how old she is, only that she is not old enough to marry Beric in the GoT). Ashara is septa Lemore and fAegon is actually Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. And Jon is either Ned's or Brandon's son by Ashara. All this story is quite complicated enough for Ned to conceal any info about Jon's mother. I know this "alternative" is a bit crazy and too complicated.

There's your own crackpot. Now if you return to the books and find and collect all the hints you can that speak in favor of it, you can turn it into your own theory. Give it a grippy name, too, so people instantly understand what it is about.

Also "Wylla" name is mentioned by Ned Dayne. It was a common knowledge among Daynes that Ned Stark's bastard was Wylla's son, may be she was also only his wet nurse (It seems there are a lot of we do not know between Daynes and Stark, not mentioning the mutual respect even now, so many years later, it seems Daynes speak good about Ned even though he killed Arthur).

No, all we have is Edric Dayne's words, he was born much later and may even have misunderstood what he had been told. We have no idea as to what "common knowledge among" the Dayne family members was or is, not yet.

Yes, Ned seems to be held in high esteem, although he killed Arthur. Such a nice puzzle there.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes, I agree with you here. It also seems that Martells never blamed Starks for anything (may be they see them as victims, who knows). It was Lannisters they hated and blamed for murder of Elia and her children. Though, according to TV show Oberyn there is some bitterness about Rhaegar and his actions ("Elia loved him, but he ran off with another woman"-wasn't that too strange coming from the Dornish prince, who has 8 bastard daughters, though he is not married, of course). I think that Oberyn should have known Rhaegar and Elia's marriage wasn't a love match, though, of course, it does not justify any of Rhaegar's actions, but Dorn understands passion better then other place.

What is said on the TV show, doesn't necessarily apply to those characters in the books.. For example, there is no claim of Elia loving Rhaegar in the books..

[Gala]

Sure, we discuss R+L=J here, but do care for the alternative.

There's your own crackpot. Now if you return to the books and find and collect all the hints you can that speak in favor of it, you can turn it into your own theory. Give it a grippy name, too, so people instantly understand what it is about.

No, all we have is Edric Dayne's words, he was born much later and may even have misunderstood what he had been told. We have no idea as to what "common knowledge among" the Dayne family members was or is, not yet.

Yes, Ned seems to be held in high esteem, although he killed Arthur. Such a nice puzzle there.

If you look carefully I did say this "alternative" "is crazy and complicated", thus, admitting it's a crackpot, my own. I just wanted "to say it aloud" rather than to prove anything, you know.

All the other things I've written (about Daynes) are my own assumptions, a feeling I got while reading the books and I personally prefer to believe it.

[Gala]

What is said on the TV show, doesn't necessarily apply to those characters in the books.. For example, there is no claim of Elia loving Rhaegar in the books..

That's true and I agree. Unfortunately, in the books we have nothing about what Martells think of Targs and Starks both. The only thing we have : Jon Arryn was interrogated seriously by Dornish and that they 100% believe him (that the sack of KL, Aerys, Elia and her children's death are entirely Lannisters work). At least TV show Oberyn mentioned something.

Also I feel something creepy about that interrogation. Some kind of "truth potion" made of light poison may be?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

If you look carefully I did say this "alternative" "is crazy and complicated", thus, admitting it's a crackpot, my own. I just wanted "to say it aloud" rather than to prove anything, you know.

All the other things I've written (about Daynes) are my own assumptions, a feeling I got while reading the books and I personally prefer to believe it.

Please don't feel offended by the word, it is crackpot and nothing wrong with it, you are being very welcome. To make it presentable as a theory and get real people on the boat finding ways to prove or disprove it, you have to collect some material from the books to strengthen it and make it a viable theory. No doubt R+L=J regulars will help there, but you have to make the start yourself. Just voicing it probably won't make it survive outside your own head for very long, I hope you get my meaning.

It is alright to personally believe in anything, including that the flying spaghetti monster is actually the drowned god. Again, if you want to find out, if there could be more to your believes than your personal choice, you might want to join a discussion with findings, starting out with the real text that we all can refer to and check your ideas. Got me right?

[sj4iy]

Sure, we discuss R+L=J here, but do care for the alternative.

There's your own crackpot. Now if you return to the books and find and collect all the hints you can that speak in favor of it, you can turn it into your own theory. Give it a grippy name, too, so people instantly understand what it is about.

A combination of capital letters and mathematical symbols seems to work...especially when the capital letters can mean several different names, and confuses people enough to give it a look to see which people the theory is talking about. If they are real bold, they could use [brackets].

[Jon Weirgaryen]

A combination of capital letters and mathematical symbols seems to work...especially when the capital letters can mean several different names, and confuses people enough to give it a look to see which people the theory is talking about. If they are real bold, they could use [brackets].

:P - unfortunately that's all true.

[FrozenFire3]

Big R+L=J hints from TIME's 4 episode review! DON'T READ if you want to wait until the episodes air.

http://time.com/3767866/game-of-thrones-season-5-review/

It's hidden behind blurred texts.

(Disclaimer: I’ve seen four episodes of the season; there’s no telling what might come up later.) But there are also a few elements I’m pleasantly surprised the show has retained–including info dumps about Rheagar and Lyanna, Maester Qyburn’s weird-science research, and a nod to popular theories about Jon Snow’s parentage.

Yes! Also,

Vanity Fair:

But when, in one lovely scene in this new season, two characters find themselves in an old, old crypt and one of them shares a faraway memory with the other, one that has grander implications than they can likely imagine (but we can!), the series whispers with Martin’s same melancholy magic.

WiC:

Later, someone brings up Lord Whent’s infamous Tourney at Harrenhal, and more than one character discusses Rhaegar Targaryen at length. All this might just be a function of the season’s slower pace, but it could also indicate that there are revelations coming about what happened in the days before the current crop of young characters was born, revelations that could drastically alter their futures.

WotW:

The show seems intent on bringing the past to the present this year, with more than one reference to long-dead characters who may still hold significance.

[Alia of the knife]

That's how I always thought it was. It was stated that Elia loved Rhaegar, it seems he was a good man and it was hard not to love him, but he didn't love her back, unfortunately. At ToJ he was for the first time happy and as you said "living". The prophecy obsession just could become even stronger since Lyanna was a descendants of the Kings of Winter (the Pact of Ice and Fire and I think that Rhaegar being a great reader could know about it).

And that is Martins point on the tricky nature of prophesy. He said himself that you have to treat it with caution because it usually plays out in ways the person doing the interpretation hadn't anticipated.

You aren't supposed to actually "live" by it unless you fully understand it, and as able and clever a man as Rhaegar was, I don't see any indication that he was good at it.

Going back to how the "savior" theory is conflated with the North, i.e., the Others, we never see Rhaegar apparently do anything proactive with the Wall. Usually young aristocratic men, particulary a CP would chomp at the bit to prove themselves, or take on something that they actively accomplished, and as late as Tyrion, Aemon is still begging for help for the Wall, so was he just waiting to sire the super babies?

Did he or any of his current relatives ever go to Winterfell, or anyone from the Targaryen court such as Steffon Berantheon? I mean, what are we doing here?

[RumHam]

Did he or any of his current relatives ever go to Winterfell, or anyone from the Targaryen court such as Steffon Berantheon? I mean, what are we doing here?

Not that I'm aware of, but Rickard did visit King's Landing. (before that time he got burnt to death.) Aerys came up with his second wall idea, so at least he was thinking about the wall after that visit.

Oh, goody. Nitpicking.

Same. Damn. Thing. And I'm not going to get into semantics about it.

How is being heir to the throne and being the heir to the heir to the throne the same damn thing, exactly?