R+L=J v.138

[Lord Varys]

UL,

well, we know that Rhaegar know his father was a madman. Thus my assumption that Rhaegar would have to know that his father react irrational under any circumstances. That is a fact. We also know for a fact that Rhaegar and Aerys and their parties were at each other's throat shorty before the rebellion - Pycelle's letter comparing the situation to the pre-Dance climate at KL proves this. Then it also very much implied that Rhaegar plotted against Aerys prior to the rebellion. He wanted to depose him which means he was aware that his father should or could not continue to rule for the good of the Realm.

Aerys and his cronies were just looking for a pretext to pass over Rhaegar in favor of Viserys. What better pretext than Rhaegar taking a second wife without the king's persmission and thus causing uproar and trouble in the Realm? The problems Aerys would have faced with the Martells alone in the aftermath of such a thing would have given them reason enough to destroy Rhaegar - if we assume for a moment that the Starks and Baratheons would have gone along with the whole thing.

This makes it very unlikely that Rhaegar hoped that another child by Lyanna would sway Aerys to accept his new family at court. If you want to go with a convincing scenario try to continue the exile idea (which would fit with him and Lyanna disappearing) or perhaps assume that Rhaegar intended to return to depose Aerys rather than hoping to strike a deal/reconcile with his father. Both would make more sense. But Rhaegar did obviously not intend to go into exile with Lyanna, Elia, and her children. Elia remained on Dragonstone, and ended eventually in Aerys' grasp. Had Rhaegar intended to leave with Elia he would have sent to Essos or at least to Dorne were he could pick her up.

The scenario of Aerys not accepting the marriage despite Rhaegar's 'credible witnesses':

A nicer not-so-mad Aerys not intent to destroy of punish Rhaegar could have gone down that road.

'Son, you claim to have married this woman somewhere in the wilderness. Your two friends there are bound by oath to serve and obey me, not you. And I command them to the tell the truth as I see it. This gives me the opportunity to keep you as my heir as you have just taken a mistress not offended all the gods and men by taking a second wife.'

It is also not clear when and how Lyanna and Rhaegar married - if they did marry. Right now nothing suggests that Lyanna was involved in the whole plan. From TWoIaF we know that Rhaegar was close to the Whents and could thus have received information about Lyanna's whereabouts from Lord Walter and Ser Oswell if we go with the assumption that she stayed at Harrenhal after the tourney. In that scenario Rhaegar may have had to convince/persuade her first to marry him if we assume that he did not take her to wife against her will.

Thus it is not impossible to assume that Rhaegar and Lyanna were not yet married when the Brandon/Rickard were killed and the rebellion broke out.

Alia,

the idea of Elia being set aside actually makes sense. It cannot be a coincidence that we have only a sketchy impression how Dorne felt about this whole Lyanna thing - despite having many Dornish POV characters. We only know they were pissed. But where they pissed because Rhaegar ran away with Lyanna or because he had taken a second wife or because he had set Elia aside? That is not clear yet, and I think it is not unlikely that Rhaegar went down that road rather than entering into polygamy. Rhaenys and Aegon would remain his children in that scenario.

[Alia of the knife]

UL,

well, we know that Rhaegar know his father was a madman. Thus my assumption that Rhaegar would have to know that his father react irrational under any circumstances. That is a fact. We also know for a fact that Rhaegar and Aerys and their parties were at each other's throat shorty before the rebellion - Pycelle's letter comparing the situation to the pre-Dance climate at KL proves this. Then it also very much implied that Rhaegar plotted against Aerys prior to the rebellion. He wanted to depose him which means he was aware that his father should or could not continue to rule for the good of the Realm.

Aerys and his cronies were just looking for a pretext to pass over Rhaegar in favor of Viserys. What better pretext than Rhaegar taking a second wife without the king's persmission and thus causing uproar and trouble in the Realm? The problems Aerys would have faced with the Martells alone in the aftermath of such a thing would have given them reason enough to destroy Rhaegar - if we assume for a moment that the Starks and Baratheons would have gone along with the whole thing.

This makes it very unlikely that Rhaegar hoped that another child by Lyanna would sway Aerys to accept his new family at court. If you want to go with a convincing scenario try to continue the exile idea (which would fit with him and Lyanna disappearing) or perhaps assume that Rhaegar intended to return to depose Aerys rather than hoping to strike a deal/reconcile with his father. Both would make more sense. But Rhaegar did obviously not intend to go into exile with Lyanna, Elia, and her children. Elia remained on Dragonstone, and ended eventually in Aerys' grasp. Had Rhaegar intended to leave with Elia he would have sent to Essos or at least to Dorne were he could pick her up.

The scenario of Aerys not accepting the marriage despite Rhaegar's 'credible witnesses':

A nicer not-so-mad Aerys not intent to destroy of punish Rhaegar could have gone down that road.

'Son, you claim to have married this woman somewhere in the wilderness. Your two friends there are bound by oath to serve and obey me, not you. And I command them to the tell the truth as I see it. This gives me the opportunity to keep you as my heir as you have just taken a mistress not offended all the gods and men by taking a second wife.'

It is also not clear when and how Lyanna and Rhaegar married - if they did marry. Right now nothing suggests that Lyanna was involved in the whole plan. From TWoIaF we know that Rhaegar was close to the Whents and could thus have received information about Lyanna's whereabouts from Lord Walter and Ser Oswell if we go with the assumption that she stayed at Harrenhal after the tourney. In that scenario Rhaegar may have had to convince/persuade her first to marry him if we assume that he did not take her to wife against her will.

Thus it is not impossible to assume that Rhaegar and Lyanna were not yet married when the Brandon/Rickard were killed and the rebellion broke out.

Alia,

the idea of Elia being set aside actually makes sense. It cannot be a coincidence that we have only a sketchy impression how Dorne felt about this whole Lyanna thing - despite having many Dornish POV characters. We only know they were pissed. But where they pissed because Rhaegar ran away with Lyanna or because he had taken a second wife or because he had set Elia aside? That is not clear yet, and I think it is not unlikely that Rhaegar went down that road rather than entering into polygamy. Rhaenys and Aegon would remain his children in that scenario.

Yes, I think is should be considered as a possibility anyway.

It also goes back to the themes that Martin writes about, especially that history is written by the victors. There were some that said in the case of King John that he only kidnapped Isabella to spite his enemies, however, there are also court reports that he lay abed with Isabella all day, and even neglected state affairs because of her.

So what is true? The truth is that it is probably both- he did it for spite, but also for love of Isabella. What is interesting though, is after John died, she actually married the man she was initially betrothed to.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yes, I think is should be considered as a possibility anyway.

It also goes back to the themes that Martin writes about, especially that history is written by the victors. There were some that said in the case of King John that he only kidnapped Isabella to spite his enemies, however, there are also court reports that he lay abed with Isabella all day, and even neglected state affairs because of her.

So what is true? The truth is that it is probably both- he did it for spite, but also for love of Isabella. What is interesting though, is after John died, she actually married the man she was initially betrothed to.

While setting aside Elia might be a possibility, it seems not to be very likely. If we believe that Rhaegar was trying to build Team 3HD, he would need to raise Aegon and Rhaenys, together with his child by Lyanna, as a unified group. Anything that increased the likelihood of conflict among the children would be a problem for Rhaegar. Of course, marrying a second wife raises problems -- but setting aside Elia compounds these problems. Rhaegar would be increases the already meaningful risk that his older two children would not want to work with Rhaegar if he set aside their mother.

[MtnLion]

Aegon isn't from the 7 kingdoms either, neither was Aegon I. Targs come from Essos.

Again, I was responding to the "westerosi law" and "ruling monarch" statement, which was and remains false.

[Lord Varys]

UL,

we don't really know what 'setting aside a wife' actually means. This does not seem to be the same as an annullment - it rather seems a royal/king decides by his own authority that his marriage is at an end. The woman does not seem to have a say in the matter (which seems to be different in an annullment where - presumably - both spouses are interviewed/heard by the Faith).

Rhaegar needed his children for the whole savior thing. Elia was not necessary. And there is at least one precedent that seems to suggest that the children of a wife who has been set aside aren't declared bastards - the Gardener king who set aside his wives in favor of his new Hightower queen.

ML,

I imagine from the POV of the Targaryens Viserys III and Daenerys I are the ruling monarchs of Westeros. The fact that never sat on the Iron Throne until now does not really matter to them.

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

I was not asserted that Aegon and Rhaenys would become bastards. I was suggesting that they might have feelings for their mother and be upset with Rhaegar. Rhaegar needs his children to be cooperative in preparing to be the 3HD. Marrying a second wife is problem enough for avoiding resentment from his children with Elia (which is why I think he got Elia on board with the idea after she could no longer have children), but putting her aside would create an increased risk of losing the support of Aegon and Rhaenys.

[Avalatis]

LV--

The Faith opposed Maegor because they found polygamy to be against the Faith. You are using modern sensibilities to suggest it means the marriages did not exist. The Faith wanted him to "annul" the marriages -- so the Faith must have believed they were marriages or there would be nothing to annul. I think your murder example is sort of on point for my view -- not yours. The person is still dead, just as the marriage is still a marriages. But there are potential penalties for the action. So the issue is not whether the murder occurred or did not occur (presumably it did), but the penalties for the murder. Unlike murder, however, polygamy can be undone by annulling the marriage. So the Faith also want that action taken. But again, insisting on the violator annulling the marriage also acknowledges that the marriage is real. In the U.S., the state merely considers the second marriage not to be valid -- no action on the part of the person who engaged in the marriage is necessary to undo the marriages -- the law simply does not consider it to be a marriage. In Westeros, clearly something different is going on.

And you say Tywin "effectively" unmade the marriage. Is that like being "half pregnant"? Was the marriage unmade or not? I think not, but even if it was, as I explained in post #203, it would still be consistent with my theory. If you are right -- until the marriage is unmade, it is a marriage. Aerys never unmade Rhaegar's marriage to Lyanna. So if they were married, they would be rightfully considered to be married by anyone with knowledge of the marriage (such as Hightower). And with Aerys (and Rhaegar) dead, no one was in a position to unmake the marriage.

I covered the Tyrion and Tywin marriage debacle in this discussion a little while back.

Tywin had the drunk septon under this thumb. He also had the new wife under his thumb. The only witnesses to the "wedding" were under his thumb. That means the only person who could openly admit there was a wedding was Tyrion (who was also under his Father's thumb).

This wasn't a matter of Tywin using some legal authority to unmake a wedding (though it could be). This was Tywin being Tywin. So if no one is claiming there was a wedding, who is supposed to know they were married?

Now that Tywin is dead. It is quite possible the Septon could come out with the reveal (though it's unlikely, but I guess it might work for Sansa).

[Ygrain]

Provided that the septon still lives - Tywin was not a type to leave any loose ends.

[Avalatis]

but whether they did or not the Targaryens post-Jaehaerys tended to feel that it wasn't worth getting the faith wound up over it. Unless, of course, some really good reason came along.

Pretty much what I think. It's also possible that they actually accepted the tenets of the 7 (they were religions) but only violated the incest as it was necessary to keep their bloodline pure.

[Lord Varys]

UL,

well, the children are still young. Rhaegar could separate them from Elia and send her away. Problem solved. Not to mention that it is a stretch that Rhaegar would intend to prepare them for anything. All he himself did when he thought he was the savior was to train to become a warrior. That was it.

Avalatis,

actually, we don't know whether there were other witnesses to this wedding besides Tyrion, Tysha, and the septon. It could be. The important thing with Tysha is that she was a commoner. Technically, I could see a prince marrying a commoner in a non-mock-marriage (like the Unworthy did with Merry Meg) and it still having no teeth because a commoner was involved. Might makes right in Westeros.

The way Tyrion told the story is that the septon sobered up and told Lord Tywin the truth - which seems to imply that he sought out Lord Tywin and offered a solution to the problem. Like, 'as a I was drunk while performing the ceremony I can ensure you, my lord, this was no proper and legally binding marriage.' Problem solved.

Tyrion's first marriage is also no secret, by the way. People do know, and the High Septon marrying Tyrion to Sansa could have known, too. He just did not care.

[Avalatis]

I don't get the obsession with polygamy.

Cersei fears being put aside after Robert thinks she gave him two male heirs, and Daena the Defiant was divorced.

While it may not be illegal, no one is engaging in it, even Targaryens

It mattered in the context of why Hightower stayed at the tower instead of going to Viserys. The Targaryens didn't engage in it anymore, but there is precedent where Hightower would recognize that Targaryen children born from polygamy were still legitimate contenders for the throne. Based on the oldest male child being the heir, he could perceive Jon as the knew heir/King at the time Ned showed up to the tower (assuming no knowledge of Viserys being named heir).

It also matters if it just isn't recognized at all, or if it has to be annulled (which Hightowers actions suggests it would have to be annulled).

[UnmaskedLurker]

I covered the Tyrion and Tywin marriage debacle in this discussion a little while back.

Tywin had the drunk septon under this thumb. He also had the new wife under his thumb. The only witnesses to the "wedding" were under his thumb. That means the only person who could openly admit there was a wedding was Tyrion (who was also under his Father's thumb).

This wasn't a matter of Tywin using some legal authority to unmake a wedding (though it could be). This was Tywin being Tywin. So if no one is claiming there was a wedding, who is supposed to know they were married?

Now that Tywin is dead. It is quite possible the Septon could come out with the reveal (though it's unlikely, but I guess it might work for Sansa).

I went online and pulled up the chapter from GoT in which Tyrion tells this story (Tyrion VI, GoT). Maybe there is another chapter somewhere that goes into other details, but in that chapter, Tyrion does not state that any formal action was taken to "undo" the marriage or that the septon denied the marriage occurred. The closest is that Tyrion says "That was the end of my marriage" (or something along those lines). But he does not say what, if any, steps were taken to undo the marriage or cause it not be considered to be a marriage.

Basically, Tyrion states that he payed a drunk septon to marry him to Tysha. When the septon sobered up, he ratted Tyrion out, and Jaime told Tyrion that Tysha was really a whore, paid to seduce Tyrion, and then Tywin had the group of men rape Tysha, paying her a piece of silver each, and then made Tyrion rape her and pay her a piece of gold. There is no statement about the septon testifying that the wedding never happened. There is no statement that the marriage was "set aside" or "annulled" or any other formal action. As best I can tell, Tywin merely caused Tysha to disappear (to where he later describes as "where whores go"). But under the normal rules of Westeros, it would appear that Tyrion remained married (unless Tysha died). A marriage ceremony was held by a real septon, and no formal steps appear to have been taken to have the marriage not treated as a marriage. Tysha merely disappeared, and so for all practical purposes, the marriage was over. But I see no evidence that the marriage, in fact, ended.

UL,

well, the children are still young. Rhaegar could separate them from Elia and send her away. Problem solved. Not to mention that it is a stretch that Rhaegar would intend to prepare them for anything. All he himself did when he thought he was the savior was to train to become a warrior. That was it.

Avalatis,

actually, we don't know whether there were other witnesses to this wedding besides Tyrion, Tysha, and the septon. It could be. The important thing with Tysha is that she was a commoner. Technically, I could see a prince marrying a commoner in a non-mock-marriage (like the Unworthy did with Merry Meg) and it still having no teeth because a commoner was involved. Might makes right in Westeros.

The way Tyrion told the story is that the septon sobered up and told Lord Tywin the truth - which seems to imply that he sought out Lord Tywin and offered a solution to the problem. Like, 'as a I was drunk while performing the ceremony I can ensure you, my lord, this was no proper and legally binding marriage.' Problem solved.

Tyrion's first marriage is also no secret, by the way. People do know, and the High Septon marrying Tyrion to Sansa could have known, too. He just did not care.

As children grow older, they ask about their mothers. Sure, maybe Rhaegar thought he did not have to worry because he would have control of the children, but it might have been a factor in his thinking -- just an idea (not really a theory).

As to what the septon told Tywin, we obviously don't know the details. Tywin might not have cared -- believing that getting rid of the girl was sufficient and no one would later challenge him regarding whether a real marriage occurred or not. But if Tysha came back and if other witnesses to the ceremony came forward (apparently there were none, as Tyrion says only pigs were present as witnesses, and they ate one of them) or she otherwise came across as believed, I think it would be concluded that the marriage was real and was never "undone" in any way that would be recognized in Westeros.

[Lord Varys]

Avalatis,

only if we consider the dream sequence valid real world information. And only if we assume that Hightower would actually approve of Targaryen polygamy - which we simply do not know (I'd be surprised if he would - in fact, I'm pretty sure none of Rhaegar's companions found this a grea idea).

We would have to assume that Hightower would have to be in Rhaegar's camp, anyway, as I think it would be big stretch to assume that Hightower - as Aerys' man - would dare deciding that Lyanna's child - the offspring of a secret polygamous marriage of the Prince of Dragonstone - had a better claim that the king's second son (Viserys). Hightower was at KL before he went to tower - I imagine he would have known Aerys' view on whatever Rhaegar did with Lyanna there - even if Aerys had no idea or did not suspect that Rhaegar and Lyanna would marry. He may not have given him any orders but I guess Hightower would have been informed enough to conclude that it was very unlikely that Aerys II actually wanted a son of Lyanna's succeed him on the Iron Throne.

And if that's the case then it is unlikely that Hightower would have considered Lyanna's son his king. But he could still have found honor-bound to protect him. But this is the dream thing again ;-).

[Avalatis]

Provided that the septon still lives - Tywin was not a type to leave any loose ends.

Quite true. But it is a possibility.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well, according to the app, Elia was still supposed to become Rhaegar's queen when the Dornish army marched for the Trident

When Robert Baratheon begins his rebellion, triggered by Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna Stark shortly after Elia has given birth to Aegon, Doran is furious at Elia's mistreatment at the hands of her husband and so is slow to lend any aid to the embattled Targaryens. It is only after Rhaegar returns from the south to take charge of the Targaryen host that Doran sends ten thousand men under the command of his uncle, Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard, to fight under the Targaryen banner at the Trident. Despite Rhaegar's insult to his sister Elia by making off with Lyanna Stark, Doran understands that the fortunes of his house are tied to the Targaryens and that one day Elia will be queen and his nephew Aegon will one day inherit and be king.

That Elia was still supposed to become Rhaegar's Queen, would suggest that she was not set aside.

Not that I belief Elia would have simply accepted such. Rhaegar can promise whatever he wants, but with Elia being set aside for another woman, Aegon's inheritance would be in danger..

[Avalatis]

Basically, Tyrion states that he payed a drunk septon to marry him to Tysha. When the septon sobered up, he ratted Tyrion out, and Jaime told Tyrion that Tysha was really a whore, paid to seduce Tyrion, and then Tywin had the group of men rape Tysha, paying her a piece of silver each, and then made Tyrion rape her and pay her a piece of gold. There is no statement about the septon testifying that the wedding never happened. There is no statement that the marriage was "set aside" or "annulled" or any other formal action. As best I can tell, Tywin merely caused Tysha to disappear (to where he later describes as "where whores go"). But under the normal rules of Westeros, it would appear that Tyrion remained married (unless Tysha died). A marriage ceremony was held by a real septon, and no formal steps appear to have been taken to have the marriage not treated as a marriage. Tysha merely disappeared, and so for all practical purposes, the marriage was over. But I see no evidence that the marriage, in fact, ended.

Well you're more versed on it than I am if you just read through the text. I took it as Jaime convinced Tyrion it wasn't a real marriage and that she was a whore hired by him to please him. Meanwhile if they pretended the whole thing was a farce no one spoke of it. Tywin didn't have to unmake it, if no one spoke of it. A clear warning to the Septon of "Do no tell anyone, and here is some gold" or possibly the death of the Septon as Ygrain pointed out.

I would think that Tyrions marriage to Sansa would have been opposed by this Septon if the wedding hadn't been annulled, or if he hadn't been coerced to not speak about it. But no one really brings up the marriage to Tysha except for Tyrion. That seems to imply it wasn't widely known. Does Cersie know?

[RumHam]

Er, no need to, because a precedent has already been established with Maegor - or as GRRM said, "there was and IS precedent".

Once again, there being precedent for something does not automatically make it legal. It allows you to make an argument. Do you think it's considered legal to use fire as your champion in a trial by combat? The king can do it because who's gonna stop him, but I don't see a prince getting away with it without the king's blessing.

What we do learn from TPAQ, though:

- Daemon and Rhaenyra didn't consider Daemon's marriage an obstacle to getting married

- once the king forbids a marriage, it cannot take place, so it's better to ask forgiveness than permission (further confirmed by the case of Jaehaerys and Shaera)

I'm baffled that that's what you take away from that situation. Daemon explicitly asks the king to release him from his marriage so he can wed Rhaenyra. So clearly it was an obstacle. Viserys forbids their marriage, and then years later they do it anyway. Notably after they are both single.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Avalatis,

only if we consider the dream sequence valid real world information. And only if we assume that Hightower would actually approve of Targaryen polygamy - which we simply do not know (I'd be surprised if he would - in fact, I'm pretty sure none of Rhaegar's companions found this a grea idea).

We would have to assume that Hightower would have to be in Rhaegar's camp, anyway, as I think it would be big stretch to assume that Hightower - as Aerys' man - would dare deciding that Lyanna's child - the offspring of a secret polygamous marriage of the Prince of Dragonstone - had a better claim that the king's second son (Viserys). Hightower was at KL before he went to tower - I imagine he would have known Aerys' view on whatever Rhaegar did with Lyanna there - even if Aerys had no idea or did not suspect that Rhaegar and Lyanna would marry. He may not have given him any orders but I guess Hightower would have been informed enough to conclude that it was very unlikely that Aerys II actually wanted a son of Lyanna's succeed him on the Iron Throne.

And if that's the case then it is unlikely that Hightower would have considered Lyanna's son his king. But he could still have found honor-bound to protect him. But this is the dream thing again ;-).

Why wouldn't Hightower consider a polygamous marriage valid. As I have been pointing out repeatedly, even your theory regarding polygamy requires some action to undo the marriage. Prior to any such action, it is a marriage -- even under your theory. There is no support that a polygamous marriage is not regarded as a marriage or that the child of second wife is not in the normal order of succession to the throne.

As to what Aerys would have wanted -- it would be irrelevant because Aerys is dead at that point. Absent knowledge of a decree from Aerys naming Viserys as heir, Hightower would not care -- nor would he be allowed to care -- what Aerys would have wanted. Absent a GC or a royal decree from the king -- the normal rules of succession would apply -- which would make Jon the king. Hightower would not believe he had any authority to challenge these normal rules and so Hightower would not be in a position to consider Viserys as a potential rightful King. Again ,assuming no knowledge of any decree from Aerys to the contrary, the views of what Aerys might have wanted is irrelevant after his death. Hightower would not feel free to try to decide what "was likely" regarding Aerys nor would it matter given that Aerys was dead (again, absent a formal decree).

But again, you keep slipping in this notion that a second marriage would not be considered a marriage. But you have no evidence to support this position. The only arguments you have made that tend to provide any support require some action to undo the marriage. And we know no such action was taken to undo the marriage. So Hightower would be required to accept the marriage. He would not really have any choice. They had a marriage ceremony -- witnesses told Hightower it happened -- we have no precedent of any marriage properly performed not being considered a marriage (absent action taken to annul the marriage -- which did not happen here). So why do you keep making this assertion when all evidence in the text suggests otherwise?

Well you're more versed on it than I am if you just read through the text. I took it as Jaime convinced Tyrion it wasn't a real marriage and that she was a whore hired by him to please him. Meanwhile if they pretended the whole thing was a farce no one spoke of it. Tywin didn't have to unmake it, if no one spoke of it. A clear warning to the Septon of "Do no tell anyone, and here is some gold" or possibly the death of the Septon as Ygrain pointed out.

I would think that Tyrions marriage to Sansa would have been opposed by this Septon if the wedding hadn't been annulled, or if he hadn't been coerced to not speak about it. But no one really brings up the marriage to Tysha except for Tyrion. That seems to imply it wasn't widely known. Does Cersie know?

Here is a re-print of the relevant text -- you decide for yourself what it means:

"A Lannister of Casterly Rock wed to a crofter's daughter," Bronn said. "How did you manage that?"

"Oh, you'd be astonished at what a boy can make of a few lies, fifty pieces of silver, and a drunken septon. I dared not bring my bride home to Casterly Rock, so I set her up in a cottage of her own, and for a fortnight we played at being man and wife. And then the septon sobered and confessed all to my lord father." Tyrion was surprised at how desolate it made him feel to say it, even after all these years. Perhaps he was just tired. "That was the end of my marriage." He sat up and stared at the dying fire, blinking at the light.

"He sent the girl away?"

"He did better than that," Tyrion said. "First he made my brother tell me the truth. The girl was a whore, you see. Jaime arranged the whole affair, the road, the outlaws, all of it. He thought it was time I had a woman. He paid double for a maiden, knowing it would be my first time.

"After Jaime had made his confession, to drive home the lesson, Lord Tywin brought my wife in and gave her to his guards. They paid her fair enough. A silver for each man, how many whores command that high a price? He sat me down in the corner of the barracks and bade me watch, and at the end she had so many silvers the coins were slipping through her fingers and rolling on the floor, she . . . " The smoke was stinging his eyes. Tyrion cleared his throat and turned away from the fire, to gaze out into darkness. "Lord Tywin had me go last," he said in a quiet voice. "And he gave me a gold coin to pay her, because I was a Lannister, and worth more."

After a time he heard the noise again, the rasp of steel on stone as Bronn sharpened his sword. "Thirteen or thirty or three, I would have killed the man who did that to me."

Tyrion swung around to face him. "You may get that chance one day. Remember what I told you. A Lannister always pays his debts." He yawned. "I think I will try and sleep. Wake me if we're about to die."

[Avalatis]

only if we consider the dream sequence valid real world information. And only if we assume that Hightower would actually approve of Targaryen polygamy

Yeah we have gone over this.

1.) No we don't have to assume it is real. We are assuming Hightower was at the tower and that he died fighting Ned and his 7 at the tower. If believe he was there at the tower and he died fighting Ned at the Tower (ignoring all the symbolic text in the dream) it does no connect up with what we *know* of his character if he believed Viserys was the legitimate heir (either from Polygamy being completely invalid or knows of the "decree" that made Viserys heir).

2.) His character shows that his approval is not necessary for him to follow his duty. He could think polygamy is wrong and a violation of the faith of the 7. But I imagine he also felt Aerys raping his wife and burning people alive was wrong and violated his Knightly vows to allow them to happen. What we saw was that Hightower put his duty to his Kingsguard vows above anything else.

(I'd be surprised if he would - in fact, I'm pretty sure none of Rhaegar's companions found this a grea idea).

I'm sure Rhaegar himself would not find the idea great (well until he fell in love with her). If this was a matter of prophecy and his companions were aware of it they would have known it was necessary. A lot of If's there, but we have no idea about many of the companions and what they knew and believed. We do know that Dayne and Whent played along with the abduction and avoiding the King for a full year. I can't imagine they thought that was a great idea on its surface.

We would have to assume that Hightower would have to be in Rhaegar's camp, anyway, as I think it would be big stretch to assume that Hightower - as Aerys' man - would dare deciding that Lyanna's child - the offspring of a secret polygamous marriage of the Prince of Dragonstone - had a better claim that the king's second son (Viserys).

I don't assume he was in either camp. If he was in any camp, it would be team Aerys. What I assume based on his character choices is that he places his duty above anything else. He wouldn't have to decide anything about Lyanna's child. He would know based on precedent that Jon was the next in line for the throne (as Aegon's polygamous marriage didn't invalidate any of the children in the line of succession). Duty first Hightower would have realized when he learned of Aerys and Aegon's death that Jon was the new Heir/King. Ensuring the safety of the new King would be his first duty. Had Hightower received news that Viserys was the new heir/King Hightower would have moved to see Viserys protected. I could definitely see him ordering Dayne and Whent to go with him to Dragonstone. It's quite possible that they refuse and he would have to go alone. Or he would compromise and send one of them to Dragonstone, or leave one behind to guard Lyanna and Jon.

And if that's the case then it is unlikely that Hightower would have considered Lyanna's son his king. But he could still have found honor-bound to protect him. But this is the dream thing again ;-).

You keep going back and forth on this. Either Hightower is going to be a King Maker or not. You seem to be implying he is a King Maker type character, but I don't see any evidence for it. He wouldn't assume anything of Aerys. He might know that Aerys wouldn't approve (which would be a understatement). He also would know that Aerys and Rhaegar are also having some reconciliation due to Rhaegar returning and leading the armies. But until he received word that Aerys was disinheriting Rhaegar and his children he would do his duty.

This isn't contingent on the dream (though that reinforces the notion that Hightower/Ned subconscious thoughts of Hightower, thought Jon was King). It is contingent on Hightower remaining there when he knew Viserys was the new heir/King. Him not sending at least one Kingsguard to his new King.

[Avalatis]

Here is a re-print of the relevant text -- you decide for yourself what it means:

It seems like Tyrion kept is secret. Tywin found out from the Septon. Tyrion was "told the truth" and was made to believe that the relationship was fake by having his guards rape his wife. Then the girl was never seen again. So the only people in the "know" are Jaime, Tywin, Tyrion, the Septon, and Tysha. Tyrion was supposedly shamed by his father about her being a whore I doubt he went around bragging about the marriage.

But yeah, there isn't enough information. I'll stand next to my interpretation. Tywin crushed the thought of a marriage ever actually happening, and there is no one stating differently.