R+L=J v.138

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yeah we have gone over this.

1.) No we don't have to assume it is real. We are assuming Hightower was at the tower and that he died fighting Ned and his 7 at the tower. If believe he was there at the tower and he died fighting Ned at the Tower (ignoring all the symbolic text in the dream) it does no connect up with what we *know* of his character if he believed Viserys was the legitimate heir (either from Polygamy being completely invalid or knows of the "decree" that made Viserys heir).

2.) His character shows that his approval is not necessary for him to follow his duty. He could think polygamy is wrong and a violation of the faith of the 7. But I imagine he also felt Aerys raping his wife and burning people alive was wrong and violated his Knightly vows to allow them to happen. What we saw was that Hightower put his duty to his Kingsguard vows above anything else.

I'm sure Rhaegar himself would not find the idea great (well until he fell in love with her). If this was a matter of prophecy and his companions were aware of it they would have known it was necessary. A lot of If's there, but we have no idea about many of the companions and what they knew and believed. We do know that Dayne and Whent played along with the abduction and avoiding the King for a full year. I can't imagine they thought that was a great idea on its surface.

I don't assume he was in either camp. If he was in any camp, it would be team Aerys. What I assume based on his character choices is that he places his duty above anything else. He wouldn't have to decide anything about Lyanna's child. He would know based on precedent that Jon was the next in line for the throne (as Aegon's polygamous marriage didn't invalidate any of the children in the line of succession). Duty first Hightower would have realized when he learned of Aerys and Aegon's death that Jon was the new Heir/King. Ensuring the safety of the new King would be his first duty. Had Hightower received news that Viserys was the new heir/King Hightower would have moved to see Viserys protected. I could definitely see him ordering Dayne and Whent to go with him to Dragonstone. It's quite possible that they refuse and he would have to go alone. Or he would compromise and send one of them to Dragonstone, or leave one behind to guard Lyanna and Jon.

You keep going back and forth on this. Either Hightower is going to be a King Maker or not. You seem to be implying he is a King Maker type character, but I don't see any evidence for it. He wouldn't assume anything of Aerys. He might know that Aerys wouldn't approve (which would be a understatement). He also would know that Aerys and Rhaegar are also having some reconciliation due to Rhaegar returning and leading the armies. But until he received word that Aerys was disinheriting Rhaegar and his children he would do his duty.

This isn't contingent on the dream (though that reinforces the notion that Hightower/Ned subconscious thoughts of Hightower, thought Jon was King). It is contingent on Hightower remaining there when he knew Viserys was the new heir/King. Him not sending at least one Kingsguard to his new King.

While I agree with pretty much your entire analysis (as usual)--I want to add one point about the dream that I find important. I don't think it really matters if the events in the dream happened precisely that way. The point is that Ned is having this dream -- and it is a recurring dream. Essentially, it serves as the summary in Ned's mind of what happened that day -- even if not a word-for-word report. But the telling of the conversation MUST be consistent with Ned's understanding of the facts. And Ned knows what Hightower was doing there. So when Ned has Hightower say that they did not "flee" to DS to be with Viserys because they swore a vow, Ned knows whether Hightower thought he was guarding the King or doing something else. And only if Ned believes that Hightower believed that he was guarding the king does it make any sense for Ned to formulate the conversation the way Ned did in the dream.

So it does not matter if Hightower actually said those words. What matters is that Ned puts those words in Hightower's mouth -- and so the words must be consistent with Ned's understanding of what Hightower was doing at ToJ. If Ned believed that Hightower considered Viserys to be the rightful King, but stayed at ToJ for some other reason, Ned would not put words in Hightower's mouth that he could not go to V at DS due to his Vow because such a thought would make no sense to Ned under those circumstances.

[Jô Maltese]

I do not want to interfere too much in this captivating debate about R+L's wedding (everybody could be right) but it seems to me that the real question is about Jon being a Royal Prince or not, not about Rhaegar and Lyanna being (lawfully) married. I find it interesting in this matter that both Elia and Arthur Dayne are Dornish, and the Dornish culture does not have a notion of legitimate / illegitimate children... Also the fact is that in most societies the bastard status only depends on the father officially acknowledging or not the paternity of the child, and this is even more true for a "King in waiting"... And I can see Rhaegar doing exactly that as soon as he knew Lyanna was pregnant?

[anonnyscouse]

It seems like Tyrion kept is secret. Tywin found out from the Septon. Tyrion was "told the truth" and was made to believe that the relationship was fake by having his guards rape his wife. Then the girl was never seen again. So the only people in the "know" are Jaime, Tywin, Tyrion, the Septon, and Tysha. Tyrion was supposedly shamed by his father about her being a whore I doubt he went around bragging about the marriage.

But yeah, there isn't enough information. I'll stand next to my interpretation. Tywin crushed the thought of a marriage ever actually happening, and there is no one stating differently.

You're forgetting a wildcard who does know of the marriage, he wasn't there but he has been told. Currently building power in the Crownlands, and would have no problem telling everyone of that is Tyrion's wish.

[Avalatis]

You're forgetting a wildcard who does know of the marriage, he wasn't there but he has been told. Currently building power in the Crownlands, and would have no problem telling everyone of that is Tyrion's wish.

Bronn? He knows, but is told second hand of the affair. I'm not sure how far his word would go. Also why would he bother? I don't see what he gains from it, or how it benefits Tyrion. I guess he could sell the information to someone to further scandalize the Lannisters. Though Tyrion has already been written off.

LF and Varys could know, but we're given no indication that they do.

[Ser Leftwich]

I do not want to interfere too much in this captivating debate about R+L's wedding (everybody could be right) but it seems to me that the real question is about Jon being a Royal Prince or not, not about Rhaegar and Lyanna being (lawfully) married. I find it interesting in this matter that both Elia and Arthur Dayne are Dornish, and the Dornish culture does not have a notion of legitimate / illegitimate children... Also the fact is that in most societies the bastard status only depends on the father officially acknowledging or not the paternity of the child, and this is even more true for a "King in waiting"... And I can see Rhaegar doing exactly that as soon as he knew Lyanna was pregnant?

The bold ideas above are absolutely incorrect.

Why then does the name 'Sand' exist?

Oberyn takes in all his natural children, but none of them have the last name or surname of Nymeros Martell. Oberyn has a paramour, not a wife. Those children are also Sands.

The father of a bastard is only acknowledging that the child is his, the child does not automatically get the father's last name or surname.

[Ser Creighton]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=11&v=BabsgCQhpu4

You're Welcome.

[Avalatis]

While I agree with pretty much your entire analysis (as usual)--I want to add one point about the dream that I find important. I don't think it really matters if the events in the dream happened precisely that way. The point is that Ned is having this dream -- and it is a recurring dream. Essentially, it serves as the summary in Ned's mind of what happened that day -- even if not a word-for-word report. But the telling of the conversation MUST be consistent with Ned's understanding of the facts. And Ned knows what Hightower was doing there. So when Ned has Hightower say that they did not "flee" to DS to be with Viserys because they swore a vow, Ned knows whether Hightower thought he was guarding the King or doing something else. And only if Ned believes that Hightower believed that he was guarding the king does it make any sense for Ned to formulate the conversation the way Ned did in the dream.

So it does not matter if Hightower actually said those words. What matters is that Ned puts those words in Hightower's mouth -- and so the words must be consistent with Ned's understanding of what Hightower was doing at ToJ. If Ned believed that Hightower considered Viserys to be the rightful King, but stayed at ToJ for some other reason, Ned would not put words in Hightower's mouth that he could not go to V at DS due to his Vow because such a thought would make no sense to Ned under those circumstances.

I agree. I was just approaching this from the angle (which LV is attacking it from) that the dream could not be reliable at all. I do believe the language is purposeful and gives us a view into how Ned viewed these men along with a lot of clues from the author via symbolism.

[Avalatis]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=11&v=BabsgCQhpu4

You're Welcome.

Lol. Awesome.

"So wait... who do you think your mother really is?"

"So I've thought about it a lot. And I'm 100% certain it's ah....."

"Let's play charades!"

Must be Ashara. Who else could it be?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=11&v=BabsgCQhpu4

You're Welcome.

Thank you for this :)

[BearQueen87]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=11&v=BabsgCQhpu4

You're Welcome.

HAHAHAH

[Ser Creighton]

Yeah it is an awesome video and Kit is great in it, glad to see he is having fun with the part.

[Alia of the knife]

While setting aside Elia might be a possibility, it seems not to be very likely. If we believe that Rhaegar was trying to build Team 3HD, he would need to raise Aegon and Rhaenys, together with his child by Lyanna, as a unified group. Anything that increased the likelihood of conflict among the children would be a problem for Rhaegar. Of course, marrying a second wife raises problems -- but setting aside Elia compounds these problems. Rhaegar would be increases the already meaningful risk that his older two children would not want to work with Rhaegar if he set aside their mother.

What does the prophecy say that Rhaegar was following?

Freeing the mother so that she might follow her own heart while keeping her son king seems much more honorable rather than keeping her bound in a marriage where she is faced with the woman who has her husband's affections, setting the stage for jealous rivalry which might pit the children against each other, especially as it seems to be becoming clear that Elia did love Rhaegar.

[UnmaskedLurker]

What does the prophecy say that Rhaegar was following?

Freeing the mother so that she might follow her own heart while keeping her son king seems much more honorable rather than keeping her bound in a marriage where she is faced with the woman who has her husband's affections, setting the stage for jealous rivalry which might pit the children against each other, especially as it seems to be becoming clear that Elia did love Rhaegar.

Elia could have no more children and there is no indication that she wanted to be with a different man. Being the queen (or crown princess) is typically not a bad situation. Being sent back to Dorne as a rejected wife would be considered worse by most people in that era (Lyanna is the one who would have to live with being the "second" wife). Of course, if Elia wanted Rhaegar to "release" her, I suspect he would accommodate her. But I don't think she would want to be separated from her children or be sent packing as a reject.

I agree that living with Rhaegar and a second wife and child would be difficult for Elia. But she would understand the need that Rhaegar has to make sure the 3HD prophecy is fulfilled -- and Rhaegar thought his children had to be the 3HD. What would you think Elia should do -- tell Rhaegar that it is too bad she can have no more children, he better look for the third head elsewhere? Or do you really think being set aside would be better for her? Given the nature of the society in which they lived, being a supporter of Team Dragon and getting behind whatever training Rhaegar would have had planned for the children to fulfill their purported destinies would probably be her best option -- whether she loved Rhaegar or just respected him. I think you are applying modern sensibilities to a time and place in which values were quite different.

[Avalatis]

This is probably old news. But I came across this on the wiki for season 5:

"Benioff and Weiss said that season 5 would include flashbacks , which they had previously avoided"

Any idea what flashbacks were left out of the series which might be brought up now? I don't recall the Tower of Joy flash back in the first season, but I can't see how they would add it in now that Ned is dead.

[Ser Creighton]

This is probably old news. But I came across this on the wiki for season 5:

"Benioff and Weiss said that season 5 would include flashbacks , which they had previously avoided"

Any idea what flashbacks were left out of the series which might be brought up now? I don't recall the Tower of Joy flash back in the first season, but I can't see how they would add it in now that Ned is dead.

Episode one will have Mags the frog and it has been white washed as well, so... that's about it. They even made a bit of deal about it like it was something important, it's not and was redundant in the books as well. Unless both D&D and Martin are establishing Maggy at Lannisport when Rhaegar was there. Which is possible in the books not sure about on the show though.

[Ygrain]

Elia could have no more children and there is no indication that she wanted to be with a different man. Being the queen (or crown princess) is typically not a bad situation. Being sent back to Dorne as a rejected wife would be considered worse by most people in that era (Lyanna is the one who would have to live with being the "second" wife). Of course, if Elia wanted Rhaegar to "release" her, I suspect he would accommodate her. But I don't think she would want to be separated from her children or be sent packing as a reject.

I agree that living with Rhaegar and a second wife and child would be difficult for Elia. But she would understand the need that Rhaegar has to make sure the 3HD prophecy is fulfilled -- and Rhaegar thought his children had to be the 3HD. What would you think Elia should do -- tell Rhaegar that it is too bad she can have no more children, he better look for the third head elsewhere? Or do you really think being set aside would be better for her? Given the nature of the society in which they lived, being a supporter of Team Dragon and getting behind whatever training Rhaegar would have had planned for the children to fulfill their purported destinies would probably be her best option -- whether she loved Rhaegar or just respected him. I think you are applying modern sensibilities to a time and place in which values were quite different.

There is that cryptic remark of Varys' that when Gregor broke into the nursery, she reportedly screamed a certain name - now, this is very much Varys' usual game of unsaid truths but it is well possible that the name might have been that of a man she cared for (of course, she may have screamed "Jaime" as the one KG available)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

What does the prophecy say that Rhaegar was following?

Freeing the mother so that she might follow her own heart while keeping her son king seems much more honorable rather than keeping her bound in a marriage where she is faced with the woman who has her husband's affections, setting the stage for jealous rivalry which might pit the children against each other, especially as it seems to be becoming clear that Elia did love Rhaegar.

It would still be a public dishonor to Elia, though, and we have no reason to suspect that Elia wanted to be with another..

I can't remember it being stated in the books that Elia loved Rhaegar? Could you please quote the passages you mean?

[BearQueen87]

There is that cryptic remark of Varys' that when Gregor broke into the nursery, she reportedly screamed a certain name - now, this is very much Varys' usual game of unsaid truths but it is well possible that the name might have been that of a man she cared for (of course, she may have screamed "Jaime" as the one KG available)

I think I always assumed she screamed for some guard....but yeah, that line is rather cryptic.

It would still be a public dishonor to Elia, though, and we have no reason to suspect that Elia wanted to be with another..

I can't remember it being stated in the books that Elia loved Rhaegar? Could you please quote the passages you mean?

I don't know if there is a specific passage, but i think Elia cared a great deal for Rhaegar. It wasn't the romantic and sexual love R and L had for each other, but rather love for him as a good prince, a good ruler, and a good father and partner. I think Elia knew quite a bit about what R was up to WRT Aerys (like, the Red Viper being at HH). I also don't think she wished ill on R for "leaving her" (if she didn't suspect or full on know what was going on with RL).

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I think I always assumed she screamed for some guard....but yeah, that line is rather cryptic.

BRANDON!

(why, who else? Lewyn? Arthur? ;-))

eta: don't you confound me with pesky details such as been dead for a year...

[Lord Varys]

Well, Elia could have cried 'Rhaegar' but that would have made no sense as she must have known that he was dead. But if she truly loved him she may have forgotten. Kevan cries out for Tywin as well when he dies, at least in his mind.

'Jaime' would have been a weird choice as nothing suggests that Elia Martell and her children even enjoyed KG protection after they became hostages - let alone after Jaime was the last White Sword in the Red Keep.

But we know way too little about the Rhaegar-Elia thing to make even an informed guess about Elia's feelings. But we do know that Rhaegar did not love her. And we have also no inclination to believe that Rhaegar and Elia knew each other well before they were betrothed and married. It was a political match, and we have no indication whether Elia was into the brooding and melancholy type of men.

If Elia was as much into Oberyn as he was into her - and there are pretty big hints that Oberyn actually 'loved' his sister more than the usual sibling although he may never have acted on that - then I'd say that Rhaegar wasn't really her type. I imagine them as getting along reasonably well for an arranged couple but nothing more. Not everyone should love Rhaegar and it is quite unreasonable to assume every arranged marriage turns into Ned and Catelyn as this is clearly not the case.