R+L=J v.138

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Twoiaf tells us that Rossart was named only after the Trident. So a fortnight between the Trident and the Sack.

Chelsted died before the Trident, definitely. It just seems that Aerys waited with appointing a New Hand.

Oh I see, I did not pick that one up. So ignore my inflection there. I am much happier with 14 days to the Trident, but failed to update...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Oh I see, I did not pick that one up. So ignore my inflection there. I am much happier with 14 days to the Trident, but failed to update...

It also fits much better with Ned and court travelling the same distance in a fortnight in A Game of Thrones.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

It also fits much better with Ned and court travelling the same distance in a fortnight in A Game of Thrones.

They had no need for haste though, they'd only been very - no - Darry - disgruntled. ;)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

They had no need for haste though, they'd only been very - no - Darry - disgruntled. ;)

There were no delays anymore, though.. Robert and Ned weren't really speaking, thus no more days in between for hunting etc. In fact,

Outside, wagons and riders were still pouring through the castle gates, and the yard was a chaos of mud and horseflesh and shouting men. The king had not yet arrived, he was told. Since the ugliness on the Trident, the Starks and their household had ridden well ahead of the main column, the better to separate themselves from the Lannisters and the growing tension. Robert had hardly been seen; the talk was he was traveling in the huge wheelhouse, drunk as often as not. If so, he might be hours behind, but he would still be here too soon for Ned’s liking. He had only to look at Sansa’s face to feel the rage twisting inside him once again. The last fortnight of their journey had been a misery. Sansa blamed Arya and told her that it should have been Nymeria who died. And Arya was lost after she heard what had happened to her butcher’s boy. Sansa cried herself to sleep, Arya brooded silently all day long, and Eddard Stark dreamed of a frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell.

this doesn't make me feel like they travelled at an easy pace ever since Lady's death. More likely they travelled a bit faster.. Thus making some haste (though definitly not as much as Ned would have done to get from the Trident to KL in time to see the Sack).

[Lord Varys]

I see no reason to suspect that there was a SSA alliance as I've chronicled above. There were some marriages between great houses but that's no new thing. Ronnel Arryn was married to a daughter of Torrhen Stark, there were matches between the Baratheons and Lannisters in the past, and history also shows us that marriage pacts don't necessarily mean you side with your in-laws in war - hello there, Lysa, Walder, Alester etc.

If such an alliance existed in one shape or the other then treason was already in the making. I don't think Hoster would then have been as reluctant as he appeared to be.

The time line suggests that Robert and Ned were still in the Vale when Lyanna was taken and Brandon/Rickard killed. Robert could not possibly raise his banners from the Vale. At least not personally. But it is rather obvious that he must have sent Stannis a raven commanding to raise a sizeable host in his name or else it is very unlikely that Robert would have had the strength to win the three battles of Summerhall shortly after his return to Storm's End.

Perhaps Robert and Rickard would not have rebelled against the Iron Throne but they most certainly would have demanded satisfaction from Prince Rhaegar - i.e. his life - and I imagine they would have known that they would not get that without pressing the issue with an army at their back.

Aerys could possibly have stopped a rebellion if he had sided with Rickard/Brandon and Robert against Rhaegar - then there wouldn't have been a pretext for a rebellion. But Aerys chose to interpret the whole thing as a threat to House Targaryen, himself included.

The chronology is:

- Lyanna is abducted. This is a crime/slight commited by Rhaegar that starts everything.

- Brandon learns of it and goes to KL' to threaten Rhaegar's life' - the situation is not yet clear but it seems that he demanded a duel/trial-by-combat. I'm not sure about the legal situation but it may be that he had the right to demand something like that - there must be rules how to deal with such an issue (a nobleman/prince stealing the promised daughter/wife/sister etc. of another great lord). I don't think the Starks had no right to demand satisfaction (it may have different if the king had abducted her, but Rhaegar was not the king).

- Aerys deals with Rickard/Brandon the way he did, and also demands the heads of Eddard and Robert. I'd be very surprised if Eddard/Robert had not decided to raise their banners if Aerys had not demanded their deaths as well. We know that you have to be strong lord to rule the North. Had Ned done nothing to avenge his father and brother his own bannermen would have skinned him alive (Roose quite literally, I'd think).

Oh, and do we know for a fact that Lord Rickard was not at Harrenhal? He does not show up in the story about the Knight of the Laughing Tree but this does not necessarily that he wasn't there.

Rhaenys,

if I think about the whole Chelsted issue and have the opportunity I'll ask George about that. I'm still quite sure that Chelsted was only burned after the Trident.

[Avalatis]

Thanks for a nice compilation. I've done it too many times to bother again for people who don't bother reading.

I can imagine so. This thread has gone on for a long time. "Polygamy is illegal" is a deflection, not a serious argument.

The discussion has moved away from the logic of the Kingsguard which "Team Obey" (or is it Team Bastard?) has yet to explain. The Kingsguard are not robots seems to be one explanation. So Hightower would act against his character for some reason in that sequence. There is a consistency to the characters, and when they act out of character it is for a good reason (which actually still matches their character based on the situation).

[Ser Creighton]

Not so much "avoiding spoilers" as avoiding the negativity here in general during show season. It grates on me...I understand people have their opinions and whatnot, but here every small thing gets amplified and blown out of proportion...makes it hard to actually enjoy the show when there's so much complaining. And I don't feel like going on the defense for liking the show...so, I'm just going to peek in here occasionally and try to avoid it this year...which I'm sure will be really hard with all of the changes.

My older brother has two sons, so I've been an aunt...my nephews are 18 and 14, and the 18 year old just signed up for the navy. I am done having kids, so we've been kind of hoping my sister (who got married last year) would want kids. She announced it by cake XD She and I have always been close, so I'm excited. I plan on dumping all my baby stuff on her XD

Sure I understand that, this site can have it's annyoing moments but I hope to see you about from time to time and I hope you enjoy the season.

So you are done having kids but you still want kids around? You are in luck until your sister has her child, you are free to take my two idi... nephews, they are really wonderful, special, so special. "Uncle super wonderful can we stop at the car dealership, I think I left my hat there. Oh did you? Yeah, the one you gave me. Oh lets stop. Oh look here it is by this mustang, it's on sale we are so in luck."

Anyway I won't normally say go Navy, but go Navy.

[Kingmonkey]

So Targaryens stopped practicing polygamy. 1.) They created a law (which any future King could over turn) that bars future Targaryens from practicing polygamy (seems worthless). 2.) They decided as a matter of necessity that polygamy was inconvenient and caused a lot of problems so they no longer used it. 3.) They truly adopted the faith of the 7 and no longer practiced the Valarian religion. This would mean they would view the practice of polygamy as immoral... yet found incest to still be necessary.

Probably more a mix of 2 and 3. 1 just makes no sense, unless it was to appease the people. The problem is it was not binding as they make the laws, they could turn around and unmake said law just as easily.

I'm not so sure we can exclude 1 (or perhaps that should be a mix of 1 and 2) as an option, even if it doesn't really make sense. Jaehaerys enacted a universal code of laws, and agreed that the Iron Throne would protect the Faith of the Seven, as part of a deal to end the Faith Militant uprising. The faith is opposed to polygamy. So there we have a possibility for this indeed happening to, as you say, appease the people.

From the Targ viewpoint of course, it would be a matter of convenience, but equally from a Targ viewpoint, they're not going to feel bound by it if they cease to consider it convenient. Kings can't break the law, because they make the law. As "any future king can overturn it", or indeed just get away with ignoring it, why not give that sop to the faith in exchange for ending the Faith Militant problem? The thread FAQ quotes an SSM that makes the point quite clearly: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want".

[Kingmonkey]

Not so much "avoiding spoilers" as avoiding the negativity here in general during show season. It grates on me...I understand people have their opinions and whatnot, but here every small thing gets amplified and blown out of proportion...makes it hard to actually enjoy the show when there's so much complaining. And I don't feel like going on the defense for liking the show...so, I'm just going to peek in here occasionally and try to avoid it this year...which I'm sure will be really hard with all of the changes.

Show is different.

Show is good.

Never understood why some people have difficulty believing both those statements could be true. I intend on just ignoring the moaning and enjoying the hell out of the new season, but I can understand why you might want to just step away for a while.

Enjoy your sabbatical, the new season and becoming an aunt! See you on the flipside.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'm not so sure we can exclude 1 (or perhaps that should be a mix of 1 and 2) as an option, even if it doesn't really make sense. Jaehaerys enacted a universal code of laws, and agreed that the Iron Throne would protect the Faith of the Seven, as part of a deal to end the Faith Militant uprising. The faith is opposed to polygamy. So there we have a possibility for this indeed happening to, as you say, appease the people.

From the Targ viewpoint of course, it would be a matter of convenience, but equally from a Targ viewpoint, they're not going to feel bound by it if they cease to consider it convenient. Kings can't break the law, because they make the law. As "any future king can overturn it", or indeed just get away with ignoring it, why not give that sop to the faith in exchange for ending the Faith Militant problem? The thread FAQ quotes an SSM that makes the point quite clearly: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want".

Sure, it might have happened -- or it might not have happened. GRRM has not told us either way. So if he intends for Rhaegar and Lyanna to have been married, then it did not happen. But we really cannot consider the "universal law" as a clue -- we are told almost nothing about it -- and we know incest kept happening (which offending the Faith even more than polygamy) -- and incest even happened without the King's permission (Aegon V's children). So the only clues we actually have been given suggest that there is no bar to polygamy under these circumstances. I don't see how your "evidence" really serves as helpful guidance one way or the other because it does not give us any insight into what GRRM is thinking or serve as something that appears to be a clue from GRRM.

[RumHam]

This is interesting, where is that from? It may just be me, though I cannot remember it being stated in the text.

Even in our real world, this is a very recent notion and has not been implemented anywhere yet :(

Historically, the law went with a group of people and ethnology first, then by and large in around the 12^th century a law that was based on places was developed. It then took quite a while to create countries and with them, a universal per-country law. Still it did not apply to everyone yet, and even today it doesn't.

In Europe, there were polygamous marriages notably in the viking age (more danico as an example for a custom or law that followed an ethnologic group into Europe allowing more than one wife per man).
Especially mirroring the Viking custom, GRRM has introduced the iron born salt wife type of marriage.

In Westeros, there is Jaehaerys II ... and there is mention of a few fundamental laws or customs, and some of them are bound to a place or region or country, and some may be religious. But I cannot remember it being stated that it is for everyone, nor that people think it should be.

Well that's why I said theoretically, it's not fairly applied to peasants I'm sure. We know Trial by Combat is afforded only to the noble class. There's also the fact that Dorne got to keep their laws when they joined the kingdoms, and I have suggested that in the past as a possible work around for Rhaegar and Lyanna. The Tower of Joy was in Dorne after all. Europe wasn't one nation, I'm sure those vikings had their own laws. My point is I don't think there's a second set of laws for the Targaryens, or that they are not bound by the laws of the seven kingdoms. In practice you're probably gonna have a hard time pressing a case against the son of the king, but the laws do apply in theory.

In fact, the text states the very contrary - that the Targs did not answer to gods or men and what was possible for Targaryens was not possible for anyone else.

The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men.

The key word being kings, who are above the law. We've seen Targaryens answer to men, being exiled or put on trial. (Maegor, Aerion, Naerys.) Two kings even came close to having to answer to men, but in both cases they were betrayed by their own people before a Stark could get there to judge them.

I can imagine so. This thread has gone on for a long time. "Polygamy is illegal" is a deflection, not a serious argument.

No, it is a serious argument. There's a separate issue of "could Rhaegar have gotten away with it and had this hypothetical marriage stand." And maybe he could have, but I'm fairly sure polygamy is illegal. I don't see social taboo stopping people like Daemon, or Walder Frey from taking what they want.

Off topic, but I finally figured out how the auto saved content works, you have to go into the full editor mode and click in the bottom left. That knowledge could have saved me so much re-typing in the past, I just wanna make sure everyone knows about it.

[Alia of the knife]

Sure I understand that, this site can have it's annyoing moments but I hope to see you about from time to time and I hope you enjoy the season.

So you are done having kids but you still want kids around? You are in luck until your sister has her child, you are free to take my two idi... nephews, they are really wonderful, special, so special. "Uncle super wonderful can we stop at the car dealership, I think I left my hat there. Oh did you? Yeah, the one you gave me. Oh lets stop. Oh look here it is by this mustang, it's on sale we are so in luck."

Anyway I won't normally say go Navy, but go Navy.

I'll say "Go Navy." It will soon be summer in Annapolis,so they will be in their dress whites.

[Alia of the knife]

Aww, thanks :) Everything is great, other than everyone catching colds. But my best friend got married last weekend and I found out my little sister is expecting her first child :D So no complaints here. Hope you are doing well, too ^^

Hanging in there, lol. At least for now. :laugh:

Are you trying to avoid spoilers? Or will you be visiting the show section more? This is probably the thread you want to avoid more than anything in terms of spoilers, I don't want to point the finger at anyone "Alia" but some people "Alia of the Knife to be specific" can be really spoilery... And then they blame the wine.

As someone who has taken many sabbaticals from the site, enjoy it, relax and enjoy the show, like you I am also a fan.

Just a heads up for those who have not seen it, but the New Sansa preview chapter is out. And on a show note Roz from the show actually makes a lot more sense now, at least to me. D&D clearly wanted to give insight into how LF uses people, particularly woman and it translates rather well to the Sansa chapter, not the prostitution part but the sort of pattern he has with using these people certain ways. I am your mentor your my assistant, I am helping you just do these things for me it will all work out, work out for him that is.

Anyway enjoy your time off, hope it is not as long as the last 6 months I took off and congrats on your soon to be aunt title. I am a trips uncle myself, otherwise known as uncle "Oh fuck he is here, run before he makes us do shit like Homework, manual labor and has us show respect to our parents." Two teenage boys, the little girl is only 3 so she still likes me. I do so enjoy torturing them, they love me, they just don't know it.

We want a new Xbox,

fine lets paint the house, get you an xbox and three games each.

No way, that's not fair

Who said life was fair and no was an option. You just lost a game each.

Well what are you going to do if we don't?

You just lost all the games, and I am going to drive you to school in a pink dress.

You are going to look so stupid in a pink dress.

Who said I would be the one wearing it?

Were should we start sanding?

Heeeeeyyyyyy, thats only because you were one episode behind, and its about another show.

Do you have your own "Arya-list" of shows I can't discuss yet? :mellow:

[Avalatis]

I'm not so sure we can exclude 1 (or perhaps that should be a mix of 1 and 2) as an option, even if it doesn't really make sense. Jaehaerys enacted a universal code of laws, and agreed that the Iron Throne would protect the Faith of the Seven, as part of a deal to end the Faith Militant uprising. The faith is opposed to polygamy. So there we have a possibility for this indeed happening to, as you say, appease the people.

From the Targ viewpoint of course, it would be a matter of convenience, but equally from a Targ viewpoint, they're not going to feel bound by it if they cease to consider it convenient. Kings can't break the law, because they make the law. As "any future king can overturn it", or indeed just get away with ignoring it, why not give that sop to the faith in exchange for ending the Faith Militant problem? The thread FAQ quotes an SSM that makes the point quite clearly: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want".

The faith is also opposed to incest. If the faith got away with bullying the Targaryens into outlawing a practice that really only they did, why wouldn't they also bullying them into outlawing incest? I think if anything they agreed with the faith that they wouldn't do it anymore. Making it a law seems unnecessary and fairly pointless.

The hypothetical isn't supported by anything besides the Targaryens stopped doing it (which have several explanations). The fact that laws were codified doesn't actually support this argument.

[Avalatis]

No, it is a serious argument. There's a separate issue of "could Rhaegar have gotten away with it and had this hypothetical marriage stand." And maybe he could have, but I'm fairly sure polygamy is illegal. I don't see social taboo stopping people like Daemon, or Walder Frey from taking what they want.

Let's say there is a law that states "no person shall take more than one spouse". This law was actually decreed by the royal family with seal and all (similar to outlawing slavery).

1.) Why? To appease the faith? If so why didn't they also outlaw incest? Targaryens were the only ones of note who practiced it. All the 7 kingsdoms had their own laws and customs in regards to this (and we can assume it was a practice already shunned). So all they are doing is writing a law for themselves. What Monarch is going to do that? The only time that happens is when the nobles rebel against the King and force his hand such as the Magna Carta. No Monarch is going to intentionally reduce their own actions unless they're weak/dumb.

2.) So what? There are no court systems in Westeros. It is up to the liege to uphold the laws. So Ned went after Jorah as he was his liege in that area. The only person Rhaegar was under was his own father. The same is said for any Targaryen King who chose to do this. The law would hold no weight. It would be pointless.

3.) Marriage while often recognized by governments for inheritance and dependence, historically was outside the preview of them. In medieval Europe the various governments asked the Catholic Church to ban private marriages as it often led to polygamy (as they would be married, run off with another spouse and get married again before the original spouse could show up to refute it in the Bann process). The problem with Westeros is they have more than one religion that is practiced there. So while the faith may have decreed that a marriage cannot consist of more than one spouse, they have no say over other religious practices.

So the Crown could technically punish an action. But that doesn't mean the wedding was not legitimate or did not occur. In Rhaegar's case he would be punished for not getting permission from his father which is a serious offense as well.

There is just no impact to it. The law has not been mentioned. If a law did exist (which is unlikely) it wouldn't have any impact on the royal family.

[Ser Creighton]

I still think it will matter in the end, at least to some of the lords of Westeros. Jon will be chosen King, IMO, at a GC mostly because of his leadership during the War for the Dawn. But being a true born son of the last Targaryen prince helps too.

Well it can help being a Targ and it can hurt, I think we will get a dose of that with Aegon. Aegon does not help Jon either, dead or alive. A second secret Targ? Not good. Looks nothing like a Targ, that's not good. Does not appear to have a single bit of evidence to support this.

It seems to me that often that fans are looking for a way for Jon to be legitimate, and he may be I have no problem with that idea. But Blackfyre did have his support and he was born a bastard. Either way it does not really matter to me. But note even in your point, it's really his actions you believe will do it, not really his name. His name might help but it might also hurt. not everyone supports the Targs.

Now in my opinion in world, in book, only one person that we "know of" could really identify Jon as a Targ, or legitimize him as a Targ and characters in world would not question it. Anyone can fake a witness and anyone can forge a document or article of some sort. You can't fake dragons.

Now Martin can play the secret Santa card, but it would have to be a hell of a secret Santa for people in world to believe it, like Rhaegar or something on that level and that one is not happening.

Now if his actions were enough, then you really would not need the mystery as he could be legitimized as a Stark or a Targ. Or with the legit rout, you still need someone with credablity on lets say Dany's level for it to go unqestioned.

So what the question really seems to be is why is the mystery important? If it was just about being the king then Jon's story would probably focus more on that and we would probably already have an answer. Jon' story though is very much focused on the others and the long night. But if his actions make him a king no need for a mystery either. Original use of the mystery was minor and marriage. But there has been no love story dating back to the begining to build that up. Dragon seed? That would be very relivant, it would matter for him to be a Targaryen then. You don't need to be a Targaryen to get the throne, legitamite or legitimized noble would be all you would need. There is the symbolism which is important, but even so that would not have much impact on the actual story or events. So while there are probably symbolic reasons I would guess there also far more tangible reasons as well. He could have any noble father and still be a contender for the throne by his own actions. Targ blood would not matter there, why would he need Dragon blood? I suspect a dragon is one reason (but that does not make it a lock), symbolism is another, and probably something relating to magic and imbalance.

I can't say any of that is right though. What I feel more safe in saying is that whatever his blood his, it's significant because of the war for the dawn 2.0, maybe 3.0, probably 3.0, rather than ok you can get married to such and such or here is a throne. This also points out that in no way is the KG actually relivant, they do not effect, his blood, his life, current events or his future.

When it comes to any Targaryen secret or not, most of the information we get comes from Dany. Weather it is Rhaegar, a blue rose, prophecies, visions, historical accounting, symbolism, imagery, etc... I mention that because I still say that Martin will play another Jon card there in winds. It goes back to the knot, and the last thing he said about the order of events and people coming to her. There is one person he left unnamed when talking about it and it was after Dance when it seemed we knew everyone coming to her. It's in SSM, an unnamed person with there story. Every person currently coming to her is coming because of the Dragons or prophecy. Jorah is coming back and does not really count, but he is already very much a part of her journey which is dragons and prophecy and all that, he was there from the begining. But that unnamed person I am also positive will be in relation to Jon. Given Tyrion being there, he knows about prophecy, dragons, Aegon and Jon, the only person in the books who has spoken to both Jon and Aegon. It seems very important that Tyrion had to know Jon, or why send him to the wall and put him on a Journey with Jon and the two become friends?

He has been on both a journey with Aegon and Jon. Jon with Benjen and Aegon and JonCon. Jon is very much connected to the north and Aegon is being connected to Dorne. He helped both young men as best he could. He has also twice now heard rumors of the Others from the Wall. He also heard rumors of dragons which he did not believe or at least doubted.

Tyrion is basically the smartest person on the planet and will be with Dany, and if anything is presented to him about prophecy or lineage, laws, customs, and mysteries, he is the one person who can figure it out, and she is probably the one person weather by her word or her dragons can make it unquestioned.

We have also seen a certain understanding in Westeros about those dragons and what is coming. Sam, Aemon, Marwyn, all had the same idea, we need the Dragons to help Jon and the Watch. I do feel bad that Aemon never got to know the truth, and never got to hear the Dragons or meet Dany. I think that is a guy who probably earned a little happiness, however people feel about the Dragons, he is a Targaryen and that is kind of their thing. You pickled him George, you fucking pickled the guy. He did his duty man, he did it, and you pickled him for it and gave him no resolution. That was a dick move.

Though funny enough you had Aemon in a barrel and pickled and you had Tyrion in a barrel and well pickled. And where Aemon stopped, Tyrion continued.

[Ser Creighton]

Hanging in there, lol. At least for now. :laugh:

Heeeeeyyyyyy, thats only because you were one episode behind, and its about another show.

Do you have your own "Arya-list" of shows I can't discuss yet? :mellow:

Yes. I say it every night before I go to bed. I have also named my remote needle. It's kind of big for a needle though, it's an ipad. But I could not think of a good name for the ipad, "Flat" "Rectangle" "Touch screen" "New school clicker" "Handy" they all sucked, so I took needle and it makes no sense.

[Ygrain]

The faith is also opposed to incest. If the faith got away with bullying the Targaryens into outlawing a practice that really only they did, why wouldn't they also bullying them into outlawing incest? I think if anything they agreed with the faith that they wouldn't do it anymore. Making it a law seems unnecessary and fairly pointless.

The hypothetical isn't supported by anything besides the Targaryens stopped doing it (which have several explanations). The fact that laws were codified doesn't actually support this argument.

Just two points to add:

1) Targs weren't much into polygamy even before they conquered Westeros (Aegon marrying both his sisters was considered unusual), so discontinuing the practice afterwards doesn't really mean that much

2) Quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi. We can see a parallel with the twincest - when Jaime contemplates coming out and do as the Targs used to do, Cersei is horrified because Targs were the only ones for whom the taboo didn't apply. Hence, "arguments" like "Targs couldn't do polygamy because Walder Frey couldn't" don't hold water.

[Ser Creighton]

Just two points to add:

1) Targs weren't much into polygamy even before they conquered Westeros (Aegon marrying both his sisters was considered unusual), so discontinuing the practice afterwards doesn't really mean that much

2) Quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi. We can see a parallel with the twincest - when Jaime contemplates coming out and do as the Targs used to do, Cersei is horrified because Targs were the only ones for whom the taboo didn't apply. Hence, "arguments" like "Targs couldn't do polygamy because Walder Frey couldn't" don't hold water.

Targs and Freys are an invalid comparison either way. Different practices and ruling house vs. a Lord of a Lord. Martin pointed out that Targs could get away with some stuff while they had dragons, but even then they did not always get away with it and it is a grey area for that particular ruling house.

Though would you really say Cersei was horrified by Targ practices? She seemes to very much embrace them and is on a similar path to the mad king. Intresting enough her first born did not marry a Stark but he did marry a rose. Parallel. I could point out the significance of that but it would take to long, sufice to say it is about duality and contrast. Parallels in conflict so to speak, it involves the cycle and gets to complex to bother with. Sort of how green fire (Wildfire) is not true dragon fire but the idea is similar and the fundimentals are the same but not exactly the same.

[Alia of the knife]

Well it can help being a Targ and it can hurt, I think we will get a dose of that with Aegon. Aegon does not help Jon either, dead or alive. A second secret Targ? Not good. Looks nothing like a Targ, that's not good. Does not appear to have a single bit of evidence to support this.

It seems to me that often that fans are looking for a way for Jon to be legitimate, and he may be I have no problem with that idea. But Blackfyre did have his support and he was born a bastard. Either way it does not really matter to me. But note even in your point, it's really his actions you believe will do it, not really his name. His name might help but it might also hurt. not everyone supports the Targs.

Now in my opinion in world, in book, only one person that we "know of" could really identify Jon as a Targ, or legitimize him as a Targ and characters in world would not question it. Anyone can fake a witness and anyone can forge a document or article of some sort. You can't fake dragons.

Now Martin can play the secret Santa card, but it would have to be a hell of a secret Santa for people in world to believe it, like Rhaegar or something on that level and that one is not happening.

Now if his actions were enough, then you really would not need the mystery as he could be legitimized as a Stark or a Targ. Or with the legit rout, you still need someone with credablity on lets say Dany's level for it to go unqestioned.

So what the question really seems to be is why is the mystery important? If it was just about being the king then Jon's story would probably focus more on that and we would probably already have an answer. Jon' story though is very much focused on the others and the long night. But if his actions make him a king no need for a mystery either. Original use of the mystery was minor and marriage. But there has been no love story dating back to the begining to build that up. Dragon seed? That would be very relivant, it would matter for him to be a Targaryen then. You don't need to be a Targaryen to get the throne, legitamite or legitimized noble would be all you would need. There is the symbolism which is important, but even so that would not have much impact on the actual story or events. So while there are probably symbolic reasons I would guess there also far more tangible reasons as well. He could have any noble father and still be a contender for the throne by his own actions. Targ blood would not matter there, why would he need Dragon blood? I suspect a dragon is one reason (but that does not make it a lock), symbolism is another, and probably something relating to magic and imbalance.

I can't say any of that is right though. What I feel more safe in saying is that whatever his blood his, it's significant because of the war for the dawn 2.0, maybe 3.0, probably 3.0, rather than ok you can get married to such and such or here is a throne. This also points out that in no way is the KG actually relivant, they do not effect, his blood, his life, current events or his future.

When it comes to any Targaryen secret or not, most of the information we get comes from Dany. Weather it is Rhaegar, a blue rose, prophecies, visions, historical accounting, symbolism, imagery, etc... I mention that because I still say that Martin will play another Jon card there in winds. It goes back to the knot, and the last thing he said about the order of events and people coming to her. There is one person he left unnamed when talking about it and it was after Dance when it seemed we knew everyone coming to her. It's in SSM, an unnamed person with there story. Every person currently coming to her is coming because of the Dragons or prophecy. Jorah is coming back and does not really count, but he is already very much a part of her journey which is dragons and prophecy and all that, he was there from the begining. But that unnamed person I am also positive will be in relation to Jon. Given Tyrion being there, he knows about prophecy, dragons, Aegon and Jon, the only person in the books who has spoken to both Jon and Aegon. It seems very important that Tyrion had to know Jon, or why send him to the wall and put him on a Journey with Jon and the two become friends?

He has been on both a journey with Aegon and Jon. Jon with Benjen and Aegon and JonCon. Jon is very much connected to the north and Aegon is being connected to Dorne. He helped both young men as best he could. He has also twice now heard rumors of the Others from the Wall. He also heard rumors of dragons which he did not believe or at least doubted.

Tyrion is basically the smartest person on the planet and will be with Dany, and if anything is presented to him about prophecy or lineage, laws, customs, and mysteries, he is the one person who can figure it out, and she is probably the one person weather by her word or her dragons can make it unquestioned.

We have also seen a certain understanding in Westeros about those dragons and what is coming. Sam, Aemon, Marwyn, all had the same idea, we need the Dragons to help Jon and the Watch. I do feel bad that Aemon never got to know the truth, and never got to hear the Dragons or meet Dany. I think that is a guy who probably earned a little happiness, however people feel about the Dragons, he is a Targaryen and that is kind of their thing. You pickled him George, you fucking pickled the guy. He did his duty man, he did it, and you pickled him for it and gave him no resolution. That was a dick move.

Though funny enough you had Aemon in a barrel and pickled and you had Tyrion in a barrel and well pickled. And where Aemon stopped, Tyrion continued.

I'm also going to throw Jon Conningtons name in there.

That disclaimer of Argon being "Rhaegars first born son by Elia of Dorne," has always seemed unusual to me.

So, he might have a notion of a second born son.