Casting, News, and Speculation while waiting on Season 5 (show and book spoilers)

[Colonel Green]

Do we have any other Stark-Bolton marriages?

None on the TWOIAF tree, though granted that's just 300 of the last 8000 years.

She's marrying a Bolton for the purpose of destroying them and taking her family's castle back, anyway. Hardly usual circumstances.

[Poète Lauréat]

It seems D&D will be completely changing Sansa's storyline.

lol....ah...ya think?

[ctid1977]

There would have been a Stark Bolton marriage at some point I'm sure but it doesn't matter. the show isn't the books anymore, we can see that. And however Sansa going north pans out, I can't see how I'm going like that particular artistic decision, although I will hopefully be entertained at least.

[Poète Lauréat]

the show isn't the books anymore, we can see that.

When was it ever?

[ambi76]

Still, it would surprise me if book-Sansa ends up with Stannis ...

Dunno, maybe Sansa will also take on a bit of a "Rickon" role here. Everybody wants to get their hands on her for the North since forever and who the fuck is Rickon anyways. Oh, you said book!Sansa, yeah, that seems to be a bit of a long shot. :dunno:

[Konradsmith]

Dunno, maybe Sansa will also take on a bit of a "Rickon" role here. Everybody wants to get her hands on her for the North since forever and who the fuck is Rickon anyways.

Rickon's with the Umbers in the show and Sophie recently mentioned Sansa having to act on behalf of her brothers, so I think the youngest Stark will figure in pretty soon. Maybe s6? It's likely she'll find out her brothers are alive from Reek and act accordingly. If she does end up Rickon's regent in TWOW, this all could be the shortcut to getting there. :dunno:

But yes, it seems the main reason LF wants her in WF is so that the Boltons and Stan will fight over her (as I believe his M.O. also was with fArya in the books, though less obviously) and he can tilt the balance of power as he pleases in the North and then benefit from the resulting "chaosh". Ideally, I think, he'd want both sides weakened enough so that both would lose and he could prop up Sansa as his puppet in the North in their stead. Of course it's unlikely to work out quite like that though...

[ambi76]

Yup, Littlefinger's death matches:

Stark vs. Lannister

Frey vs. Tully (thank you very much Robb Stark)

Lannister vs. Tyrell (also he gets help here from Varys of all people)

Bolton vs. Baratheon

I wonder what's next: The Martells and the "Dragons" will need to feature soon.

[AdmiralKyrd]

There would have been a Stark Bolton marriage at some point I'm sure but it doesn't matter. the show isn't the books anymore, we can see that. And however Sansa going north pans out, I can't see how I'm going like that particular artistic decision, although I will hopefully be entertained at least.

I'd try and think of it in a vacuum without the books. We hold the books in such sacred regard that any changes are immediately shunned, but it's possible that if George wanted to truncate the Vale storyline in AFFC/ADWD a bit he could have sent Sansa north, and figured out a way to write it that way - especially since he has more space to assert motives and foreshadowing. He has the room to close plotholes and concoct a well-laid scheme for Littlefinger.

However, GRRM had a roadmap for this storyline since the beginning with the inclusion of Jeyne Poole, so it's not something that he would do without prior planning, and he would have worked towards Sansa returning to Winterfell in ADWD or its equivalent from the very start.

I leave it up to D&D, Cogman, Hill, and whoever else they have advising the writing. They have a chance to make it fit. You've got to think within the breadth of the story there is a plausible, possible way to make it all slot in and work and be a good decision for the show.

My concern isn't the idea, but the execution. Will they close the major plotholes it creates? It has the potential to totally improve the northern storyline for the show, but will it ultimately improve it, will it be less fulfilling than the books but save so much time that it's alright, or will it sow so many disruptions that it ends up being worse?

I don't think it's impossible to make it work, I just wonder if the writing is up to the caliber that it needs to be to alter arguably the best plotline in the entire series and keep it as good or better.

One of the best parts of that arc in the books is you have so many factions coming together that the whole situation is a massive powder keg that could blow at any moment. You have the following major players:

Note: Allegiances that are highly suspect or treacherous are italicized.

Outside:

Stannis, Massey, and the Kingsmen

His Queensmen

The Nothern Clansmen

The Mormonts

Yara

Mors Umber and the Old Men/Green Boys

The Karkstarks

Inside:

Roose, Ramsay and the Boltons

Reek

Jeyne Poole

Ser Hosteen, the Walders, and the Freys

Lady Dustin and the Barrowmen

Wyman Manderly and the Mermen

Mance and the Spearwives

Whoresbane Umber and the Umber men

Mysterious Factions:

Hooded Man

Bloodraven & Bran

Intangibles:

Winter

There is so much going on there that its impossible to cover in the show. If they simplify it down to:

Outside:

Stannis, Davos, and the Kingsmen/Queensmen & the Sellswords

Yara

Greatjon Umber and the Umbermen

Inside:

Roose, Ramsay, and the Boltons

Black Walder/Ser Hosteen and the Freys

Reek

Sansa & Littlefinger and the Vale Guards

Wyman/Dustin/Greatjon and the Mermen/Barrowmen/Umbermen

Mysterious Factions:

Brienne and Pod

Intangibles:

Winter

I think they would be fine and good. What I fear is they cut it down to:

Outside:

Stannis, Davos, Mel & his men + Sellswords

Inside:

Roose, Ramsay and the Boltons

Sansa, Littlefinger, and the Vale guards

Mysterious Factions:

Brienne and Pod

Intangibles:

Winter

Winter

If they do that then you have major problems with focusing too much on getting your main cast screentime and you lose the real character in the situation - the massive powder keg. While both the show and the books would have setting of Winterfell, the actual settings wouldn't be the same at all. Winterfell in the books is occupied by a Volcano, in the show it might just be... Bolton occupied-Winterfell.

You want it to at least maintain its explosive characteristics, or you've lost the most important aspect about that plotline. So far, we haven't seen anything to give us the idea that the explosiveness remains, outside of some fires on Stannis' camp (which isn't even inside Winterfell), and we don't even know what is going on in that situation since it is not in the books.

TL;DR: Sansa and Littlefinger in Winterfell is fine, so long as the storyline doesn't refocus itself so heavily on that such that it becomes the tone and atmosphere inside Winterfell. It needs to maintain the same tone and atmosphere of the books of these factions being at each others' throats.

[ADanceWithCats]

But yes, it seems the main reason LF wants her in WF is so that the Boltons and Stan will fight over her (as I believe his M.O. also was with fArya in the books, though less obviously) and he can tilt the balance of power as he pleases in the North and then benefit from the resulting "chaosh". Ideally, I think, he'd want both sides weakened enough so that both would lose and he could prop up Sansa as his puppet in the North in their stead. Of course it's unlikely to work out quite like that though...

Yeah. I kind of like the interpretation that he's grown into a trickster-kinda figure. In the beginning he had some plans and schemes... now he just enjoys fucking with people and sowing chaos where he can. That's in contrast to show Varys, who is so wonderfully... sensible.

Of course, that isn't true. But I think I'd kind of like it if it were.

e: Also, the premiere is this week! Heh. I'm so happy! I mean, we all know what happens in 1-4, so the real surprises will start in a month, but I'm still so happy!

[boojam]

Winter

This may be the most important of all. We shall see, but George has been building this Ice Sauron and his (it's) invasion for a long time.

I looms to trump all story lines.

Seems that the characters who come to realize they have a common enemy will be the ones to survive.

All the speculation on who sits the thrones will be on hold until the matter of the Others clears, if there is an Iron Throne left!

[ADanceWithCats]

All the speculation on who sits the thrones will be on hold until the matter of the Others clears, if there is an Iron Throne left!

Yeah, but it's probably Season 7. :D Maybe even 7.2!

[Kasakka]

TL;DR: Sansa and Littlefinger in Winterfell is fine, so long as the storyline doesn't refocus itself so heavily on that such that it becomes the tone and atmosphere inside Winterfell. It needs to maintain the same tone and atmosphere of the books of these factions being at each others' throats.

Fully agree with you. If D&D cut too much, the atmosphere gets weaker and too simple. We NEED some Northern lords, it's going to be pathetic if there's only Littlefinger, Sansa, Roose, Ramsay, and Theon inside the castle and Stannis and Davos outside. The other factions that are in the books add so much more depth into the tensions in Winterfell. Having just 5 major characters inside the castle and 2 besieging it would be ridiculous. This is massive "simplifying process" must backfire in the long run.

[LordImp]

But is Sansa old enough to be regent ?

[ADanceWithCats]

But is Sansa old enough to be regent ?

She's flowered. This means she's an adult, right? :devil:

[AdmiralKyrd]

Fully agree with you. If D&D cut too much, the atmosphere gets weaker and too simple. We NEED some Northern lords, it's going to be pathetic if there's only Littlefinger, Sansa, Roose, Ramsay, and Theon inside the castle and Stannis and Davos outside. The other factions that are in the books add so much more depth into the tensions in Winterfell. Having just 5 major characters inside the castle and 2 besieging it would be ridiculous. This is massive "simplifying process" must backfire in the long run.

Simplifying Meereen down makes a lot of sense for the show, and they're doing that there - but almost too much. The books have:

Note: Likely Treachery/Tenuous Allegiances are italicized.

Meereen:

Daenerys and Company

Rakharo, Jhogo, Aggo and the Dothraki Bloodriders

Grey Worm, Hero, and the Unsullied

Skahaz and the Brazen Beasts

Barristan & his Knights-in-training

Daario and the Stormcrows

Freedmen Fighters

Admiral Groleo & sailors without ships

Victarion and the Ironfleet

Quentyn and Company

Drogon

Yunkai:

New Yunkai'i Slave Army

Bloodbeard and the Company of the Cat

The Tattered Prince and the Windblown

Brown Ben Plumm (+Tyrion, Jorah, Penny) and the Second Sons

Gylo and the Long Lances

Tolosi Slingers

Xaro and the Qartheen Camelry

Volantene Navy

New Ghis Legions

Mysterious Factions:

Hizdahr and the Pitfighters

The Green Grace

Intangibles:

The Pale Mare

Viserion, Rhaegal

And it looks like all that is being cut down to:

Meereen:

Daenerys and Company (+Jorah, Tyrion)

Daario and the Second Sons

Grey Worm and the Unsullied

Drogon

Insurgency:

Sons of the Harpy

Mysterious Factions:

Hizdahr

Yezzan

I'm not sure how much of that is going to totally be cut. I think we may still get Yunkai attacking before Daenerys returns with her Khalasar in S6. Meereen doesn't merit the same focus as Winterfell does, so hopefully these cuts aren't across-the-board and can lend themselves to allow for some additional factions of the Northern storyline.

[ni2tre]

Yeah I believe the news Hizdahr brings from Yunkai is BS, they want to make Dany believe they want peace but I'm sure they will do something to bring Dany and her group down. Last season, King Cleon and Yunkai were mentioned and not just so they accept peace when they are threatened in the next season.

[Hrafntýr]

<snip>

My concern isn't the idea, but the execution. Will they close the major plotholes it creates? It has the potential to totally improve the northern storyline for the show, but will it ultimately improve it, will it be less fulfilling than the books but save so much time that it's alright, or will it sow so many disruptions that it ends up being worse?

I don't think it's impossible to make it work, I just wonder if the writing is up to the caliber that it needs to be to alter arguably the best plotline in the entire series and keep it as good or better.

<snip.

What a great post, Admiral! I totally agree with everything you say. But then again, on Chebyshov's Poll, I picked "Other" as one of my three, and wrote in "Winterfell," so, yeah, I've got qualms about the show's execution of the Winterfell plot, which is perhaps my favorite of the entire series so far.

[JonSnowed]

When was it ever?

Certainly the first season that's a pretty good representation of the book in my opinion. Second season is pretty close although they do cut and streamline, the core content is the same.

[tyron]

Sophie did literally say that she starts out badass and then things go downhill at some point. My guess is the boltons promise to treat Sansa well to LF then LF leaves and they're all lol jk

:( Poor Sansa. I think this traumatizing scene is the Boltons turning on her in a really (or relatively) brutal way (something literally anyone could have seen coming except LF for some reason).

That is a good point, the viewer knows about Ramsay, because they are a witness to his behavior, but people tend to forget that the other characters in the show have no knowledge of his personality because unlike the viewer they are not privy to it. So the message boards that fill up with LF would never submit Sansa to that psycho Ramsay forget this truth.

[alienarea]

I'd try and think of it in a vacuum without the books. We hold the books in such sacred regard that any changes are immediately shunned, but it's possible that if George wanted to truncate the Vale storyline in AFFC/ADWD a bit he could have sent Sansa north, and figured out a way to write it that way - especially since he has more space to assert motives and foreshadowing. He has the room to close plotholes and concoct a well-laid scheme for Littlefinger.

However, GRRM had a roadmap for this storyline since the beginning with the inclusion of Jeyne Poole, so it's not something that he would do without prior planning, and he would have worked towards Sansa returning to Winterfell in ADWD or its equivalent from the very start.

I leave it up to D&D, Cogman, Hill, and whoever else they have advising the writing. They have a chance to make it fit. You've got to think within the breadth of the story there is a plausible, possible way to make it all slot in and work and be a good decision for the show.

My concern isn't the idea, but the execution. Will they close the major plotholes it creates? It has the potential to totally improve the northern storyline for the show, but will it ultimately improve it, will it be less fulfilling than the books but save so much time that it's alright, or will it sow so many disruptions that it ends up being worse?

I don't think it's impossible to make it work, I just wonder if the writing is up to the caliber that it needs to be to alter arguably the best plotline in the entire series and keep it as good or better.

One of the best parts of that arc in the books is you have so many factions coming together that the whole situation is a massive powder keg that could blow at any moment. You have the following major players:

Outside:

Stannis, Massey, and the Kingsmen

His Queensmen

The Nothern Clansmen

The Mormonts

Yara

Mors Umber and the Old Men/Green Boys

The Karkstarks

Inside:

Roose, Ramsay and the Boltons

Reek

Ser Hosteen, the Walders, and the Freys

Lady Dustin and the Barrowmen

Wyman Manderly and the Mermen

Mance and the Spearwives

Whoresbane Umber and the Umber men

Mysterious Factions:

Hooded Man

Bloodraven & Bran

Winter

There is so much going on there that its impossible to cover in the show. If they simplify it down to:

Outside:

Stannis, Davos, and the Kingsmen/Queensmen & the Sellswords

Yara

Greatjon Umber and the Umbermen

Inside:

Roose, Ramsay, and the Boltons

Black Walder/Ser Hosteen and the Freys

Reek

Sansa & Littlefinger and the Vale Guards

Wyman/Dustin/Greatjon and the Mermen/Barrowmen/Umbermen

Mysterious Factions:

Brienne and Pod

Winter

I think they would be fine and good. What I fear is they cut it down to:

Outside:

Stannis, Davos, Mel & his men + Sellswords

Inside:

Roose, Ramsay and the Boltons

Sansa, Littlefinger, and the Vale guards

Mysterious Factions:

Brienne and Pod

Winter

If they do that then you have major problems with focusing too much on getting your main cast screentime and you lose the real character in the situation - the massive powder keg. While both the show and the books would have setting of Winterfell, the actual settings wouldn't be the same at all. Winterfell in the books is occupied by a Volcano, in the show it might just be... Bolton occupied-Winterfell.

You want it to at least maintain its explosive characteristics, or you've lost the most important aspect about that plotline. So far, we haven't seen anything to give us the idea that the explosiveness remains, outside of some fires on Stannis' camp (which isn't even inside Winterfell), and we don't even know what is going on in that situation since it is not in the books.

TL;DR: Sansa and Littlefinger in Winterfell is fine, so long as the storyline doesn't refocus itself so heavily on that such that it becomes the tone and atmosphere inside Winterfell. It needs to maintain the same tone and atmosphere of the books of these factions being at each others' throats.

Winter is a season, not a mysterious faction. Unless we're talking Star Wars.

But it would be an epic Stark revenge if Littlefinger would freeze to death in short distance to Winterfell.