The Unsung Song of Jaime Lannister (Spoilers All)

[Makk]

It's a good theory and well written. I'm not sure about the Brienne-Jaime duel (with Brienne being Nisa-Nisa). It sounds nice but I just don't see how it could be executed. There is no way Jaime would stab her even if she tried to let him. There could be a less literal meaning, something Jaime does inadvertently leads to Brienne's death.

I'm not sure about all this but it was a good read, and the first part is definitely possible.

[Winter Blues]

This is the single best thing I've read on here in weeks! It would be an interesting thing to see how Jaime and Bran would play out if this is true...

[grufolo]

Where do I find the leaked plot from February? Is it public?

[James Arryn]

Only through part I, and very impressed so far. I've never really given it much credit...too many secret Targs...but this is (so far) well presented. The strongest points mentioned are the ~ about Aerys' wife not tolerating infidelity among her ladies and dismissing Joanna...that's hard to read otherwise...cersei's fyre glee, and the dream.

Another point I haven't seen mentioned yet is that it would be very GRRMic to have Jaime unintentionally fulfilling Aerys' last order to kill his father.

One point of contention; I don't think the text requires Rhaegar to be using the Royal 'we'; he was discussing Aerys' views on RB. Aerys is their...Aerys and Rhaegar's...cousin. Rhaegar would naturally call him either my or our cousin. Our isn't surprising since the view he was mentioning was not his.

I look forward to reading the rest later. I will agree with the notion that Jaime might make the most GRRMish hero; ie very conflicted, checkered, and self-consciously aspiring to and rejecting the notions of heroism at the same time. But then Jaime is my favourite character, so I take my own opinion with a grain or 4 of salt.

[Amris]

There is another thing which - while not being evidence in the sense of the word is nevertheless fitting with this theory:

Neither Jamie nor Cersei ever show the slightest interest in their supposed ancestral seat Casterly Rock. (Contrary to Tyrion who does).

Instead Cersei shows a near pathological affinity to the Iron Throne.

And Jamie seems to continously search for his place in the world and so far never really find it. But he does more and more learn to set things right (ending the fighting in the Riverlands through negotiations).

Contrary to your pessimistic outview for Jamie I can imagine him sitting on the IT in the end.

I can also see him as the 3rd head of the dragon.

EDIT: The Valonqar prophecy may be a clue for Jaime and Cersei being Targs too. The key here being the use of the Valyrian word. Why would a random woods witch use the Valyrian word for Cersei's killer unless she wants to indicate the 'little brother' being of Valyrian descent?

***

PS: Did everyone notice that Casterly Rock as described and pictured on pages 204 and 205 of The World of Ice and Fire is a dead match for a dwarven city? (if we were in a Tolkienesque world)

We don't have a dwarven race in GRRM's world but we do have one important dwarf.

Is it coincidence that dwarf comes from Casterly Rock? I do not think so. Is it coincidence that that dwarf is the only of the three siblings who shows interest in that 'Lonely Mountain'? I do not think so either.

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

I find Jaime cool as heck as a character, only one but... why the major hate and crap on Bobby?? considering he was the reason Jaime did not leave is dream job, did not take the black... or worse, not get the spike treatment...

i get it, he loves his sister (another wtf on Jaime), but c'mon he doesn´t talk crap about anyone else half as much... aside from that, "cool" is the word for Jaime (not counting morals or arrogance)

Good resume OP, might be true or not, but good nontheless...

[Dofs]

Oh, how I hate the A+J=J+C theory. I think it's extremely far-fetched and the arguments for it are very far-fetched as well.

[BastardlyRock]

Great post - I don't quite know where I stand personally on many of the theories, and there are only a few that I whole-heartedly subscribe to (A+J=C&J isn't one of them) but I'm not too willing to write them off all together. That being said, and of Jaime as a man and what we know of him, there was one quote you pulled that I wanted to expand on in hopes of deepening the conversation a bit:

“That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead.”

These are Jaime's thoughts on himself, which is actually quite significant. It means that inwardly, even if he's yet to/may never express it outwardly, he admits to the horrors he's committed. That list racks itself up pretty decently, depending on which of the forum members around here you ask, which can include up to and beyond any of the following: child defenestration (which for those of you who haven't read GRRM's thoughts on the act I would direct here) incest, regicide (I throw my hat in the 'his finest act' ring), plunging the Seven Kingdoms into war on account of his incest, etc. etc. Regardless of the endless arguments on both sides, the above quote illustrates that Jaime is aware of the fact that he's not holy, and he reflects on what must have happened to make him sink so low. The reasons are numerous, and as with so many things in ASOIAF it's more or less a massive domino effect, some people are dealt a better hand in the beginning than others, and that determines which domino falls first. Some of the characters have easier decisions to make, and there is little question about which path is the honorable path to follow, for others it's not so easy (do I stand by while my King commits heinous acts? Or do I act?). There are many moments in Jaime's story where we see what he could have done, but these answers are not always the easiest, and by that I mean feasible in the first place.

Some people will argue that Jaime isn't on a redemption arc, or that it's yet to begin, or that the only redemption he could achieve would be in his death. There may be some truth to this, or it may be that redemption is not viable in Westeros at all. "A good deed does not wash out the bad" and all that. It's hard to argue that Jaime didn't save Brienne from a horrible fate (on a few occasions) or that he took a less collateral option in the Siege of Riverrun (this one is controversial too, but I'll say that threatening horrible things in order to prevent them from happening is a far better solution than simply doing them, which during a war is a hell of lot better than some will give you). Here's that quote again for those that love rereading it as much as I:

You've seen our numbers, Edmure. You've seen the ladders, the towers, the trebuchets, the rams. If I speak the command, my coz will bridge your moat and break your gate. Hundreds will die, most of them your own. Your former bannermen will make up the first wave of attackers, so you'll start your day by killing the fathers and brothers of men who died for you at the Twins. The second wave will be Freys, I have no lack of those. My westermen will follow when your archers are short of arrows and your knights so weary they can hardly lift their blades. When the castle falls, all those inside will be put to the sword. Your herds will be butchered, your godswood will be felled, your keeps and towers will burn. I'll pull your walls down, and divert the Tumblestone over the ruins. By the time I'm done no man will ever know that a castle once stood here. Your wife may whelp before that. You'll want your child, I expect. I'll send him to you when he's born. With a trebuchet

In exalting Jaime (which believe me, I'm not above) I feel we also have to acknowledge his darkside, that it is in fact absolutely essential to do so in order to give his ascent significance. I would argue for informed criticisms, which of course necessitates a level of empathy which few but the author truly manage to achieve. Understanding why someone did something horrible does not make the act any less horrible, which is why I feel so many have trouble adjusting to viewing him in a kind light. But through that we may manage to acknowledge that not everyone is dealt the same hand, and for some there is no right answer, and they're forced to choose the 'less wrong' one instead, regardless of its implications. After all, Jaime himself realizes the ground he needs to recover:

His hand could wait, though. There were other things to tend to first. There were other debts to pay.

[Sword of the Morgan]

Appreciate all of the comments, and a lot of interesting things brought up in addition.

[Sword of the Morgan]

Great post - I don't quite know where I stand personally on many of the theories, and there are only a few that I whole-heartedly subscribe to (A+J=C&J isn't one of them) but I'm not too willing to write them off all together. That being said, and of Jaime as a man and what we know of him, there was one quote you pulled that I wanted to expand on in hopes of deepening the conversation a bit:

These are Jaime's thoughts on himself, which is actually quite significant. It means that inwardly, even if he's yet to/may never express it outwardly, he admits to the horrors he's committed. That list racks itself up pretty decently, depending on which of the forum members around here you ask, which can include up to and beyond any of the following: child defenestration (which for those of you who haven't read GRRM's thoughts on the act I would direct here) incest, regicide (I throw my hat in the 'his finest act' ring), plunging the Seven Kingdoms into war on account of his incest, etc. etc. Regardless of the endless arguments on both sides, the above quote illustrates that Jaime is aware of the fact that he's not holy, and he reflects on what must have happened to make him sink so low. The reasons are numerous, and as with so many things in ASOIAF it's more or less a massive domino effect, some people are dealt a better hand in the beginning than others, and that determines which domino falls first. Some of the characters have easier decisions to make, and there is little question about which path is the honorable path to follow, for others it's not so easy (do I stand by while my King commits heinous acts? Or do I act?). There are many moments in Jaime's story where we see what he could have done, but these answers are not always the easiest, and by that I mean feasible in the first place.

Some people will argue that Jaime isn't on a redemption arc, or that it's yet to begin, or that the only redemption he could achieve would be in his death. There may be some truth to this, or it may be that redemption is not viable in Westeros at all. "A good deed does not wash out the bad" and all that. It's hard to argue that Jaime didn't save Brienne from a horrible fate (on a few occasions) or that he took a less collateral option in the Siege of Riverrun (this one is controversial too, but I'll say that threatening horrible things in order to prevent them from happening is a far better solution than simply doing them, which during a war is a hell of lot better than some will give you). Here's that quote again for those that love rereading it as much as I:

In exalting Jaime (which believe me, I'm not above) I feel we also have to acknowledge his darkside, that it is in fact absolutely essential to do so in order to give his ascent significance. I would argue for informed criticisms, which of course necessitates a level of empathy which few but the author truly manage to achieve. Understanding why someone did something horrible does not make the act any less horrible, which is why I feel so many have trouble adjusting to viewing him in a kind light. But through that we may manage to acknowledge that not everyone is dealt the same hand, and for some there is no right answer, and they're forced to choose the 'less wrong' one instead, regardless of its implications. After all, Jaime himself realizes the ground he needs to recover:

I think getting him as a POV turned a lot of people around on Jaime, who before then was basically seen as a dick. Nice passages brought up here, and he definitely has a dark side. GRRM is not in the business of creating wholly good and wholly evil characters, because those people pretty much don't exist in the real world either. I think Jaime is the most complex and interesting character in the series.

[Sword of the Morgan]

There is another thing which - while not being evidence in the sense of the word is nevertheless fitting with this theory:

Neither Jamie nor Cersei ever show the slightest interest in their supposed ancestral seat Casterly Rock. (Contrary to Tyrion who does).

Instead Cersei shows a near pathological affinity to the Iron Throne.

And Jamie seems to continously search for his place in the world and so far never really find it. But he does more and more learn to set things right (ending the fighting in the Riverlands through negotiations).

Contrary to your pessimistic outview for Jamie I can imagine him sitting on the IT in the end.

I can also see him as the 3rd head of the dragon.

EDIT: The Valonqar prophecy may be a clue for Jaime and Cersei being Targs too. The key here being the use of the Valyrian word. Why would a random woods witch use the Valyrian word for Cersei's killer unless she wants to indicate the 'little brother' being of Valyrian descent?

***

PS: Did everyone notice that Casterly Rock as described and pictured on pages 204 and 205 of The World of Ice and Fire is a dead match for a dwarven city? (if we were in a Tolkienesque world)

We don't have a dwarven race in GRRM's world but we do have one important dwarf.

Is it coincidence that dwarf comes from Casterly Rock? I do not think so. Is it coincidence that that dwarf is the only of the three siblings who shows interest in that 'Lonely Mountain'? I do not think so either.

I never really thought about Cersei not caring about Casterly Rock and being obsessed with the IT. Good call.

[Sword of the Morgan]

Only through part I, and very impressed so far. I've never really given it much credit...too many secret Targs...but this is (so far) well presented. The strongest points mentioned are the ~ about Aerys' wife not tolerating infidelity among her ladies and dismissing Joanna...that's hard to read otherwise...cersei's fyre glee, and the dream.

Another point I haven't seen mentioned yet is that it would be very GRRMic to have Jaime unintentionally fulfilling Aerys' last order to kill his father.

One point of contention; I don't think the text requires Rhaegar to be using the Royal 'we'; he was discussing Aerys' views on RB. Aerys is their...Aerys and Rhaegar's...cousin. Rhaegar would naturally call him either my or our cousin. Our isn't surprising since the view he was mentioning was not his.

I look forward to reading the rest later. I will agree with the notion that Jaime might make the most GRRMish hero; ie very conflicted, checkered, and self-consciously aspiring to and rejecting the notions of heroism at the same time. But then Jaime is my favourite character, so I take my own opinion with a grain or 4 of salt.

Part I is the strongest in my opinion, so maybe it's good you stopped there haha. I really like the idea you brought up about Jaime fulfilling the order to kill his father. That had not occurred to me.

Jaime is also my favorite character, but I tried to be as unbiased as possible in constructing this theory. I think this would be a cool arc for him, but I'll be happy with his storyline as long as he contributes something important.

[Sword of the Morgan]

Where do I find the leaked plot from February? Is it public?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/game-of-thrones/11392985/Game-of-Thrones-George-RR-Martins-original-plans.html

[Grissom]

Unless unCat hangs him in the beginning of WoW.

[Sword of the Morgan]

This is the single best thing I've read on here in weeks! It would be an interesting thing to see how Jaime and Bran would play out if this is true...

Yeah, I've read some interesting theories about the Jaime and Bran clash. It's essentially how the series started, with Jaime tossing Bran from the tower, and they could clash again. That would be kind of cool.

[Sword of the Morgan]

Unless unCat hangs him in the beginning of WoW.

That is my biggest fear. That would be such a dud of an ending for him. Really hope that doesn't happen.

[Sword of the Morgan]

Another thing I would like to point out. One of Dany's dragons,Viserion,has a color of white and gold,which is identical to Jaime's Kingsguard uniform. Jaime's Targaryen blood will help him to tame the dragon and become one of Dany's three heads (Dany and Jaime encounter is another one I am waiting impatiently)

This kinda leads me to believe that Jaime is going to battle Jon Snow and his White Walkers,but ultimately Jaime will be defeated (probably with Bran's help).The prince that was promised will defeat Azor Ahai,but in the end,Jaime will become Jon's Lord Commander of Kingsguard as he has proven himself in the battlefield (plus I believe Jon will know the real reason Jaime killed Aerys and will agree with his actions).

Whatever it is,GRRM is cooking something big for Jaime,and I am loving it.

Did not think of the dragon colors. Nice. I have considered him as a third head of the dragon,but I did not want to overcomplicate the original post too much. Plus it's already long enough.

[Grissom]

That is my biggest fear. That would be such a dud of an ending for him. Really hope that doesn't happen.

Yeah I hope unCat comes to her senses and decides to spare him.

[Sword of the Morgan]

I've always hated the Jamie as a Targ theory, but I will admit that passage with his mother is disturbingly supportive of it. But, my biggest doubt is this: why would Tywin put up with the whole Aerys fathering kids on his wife thing? Let's say Aerys raped her. What's the point of being the second most powerful man in Westeros if you're going to let your wife get raped without any repercussions? I also don't see any indication that Joanna would willingly have a relationship with Aerys.

That is the passage that converted me to a believer. I'm pretty skeptical about outlandish theories such as A + J = J + C, but you've got to believe in some stuff on these boards or what's the point of being here.

I think Aerys was the only person that Tywin would bear slights and disrespect from, because he had to. It was the same when Aerys embarrassed him when Tywin proposed the Cerise and Rhaegar match. However, once he had the chance to turn on him, he certainly did, but only when it was prudent.

[James Arryn]

Bastardly;

Yes, very much.

I have long argued that the Arthur Dayne/Smiling Knight comment isn't just important in distinction, but interdependent.

Jaime's desire to be Arthur Dayne is what makes him see himself as the SK. Because Jaime, for all his cynicism and open-eyed understanding of conflicting oaths and impossible choices is still, at heart, a romantic. He still frames his life and choices in terms of the very concepts he openly mocks; honour, chivalry, a true knight.

What that does is turn a situation where for others the lesser evil means roughly the same as good, and instead makes it just that; a lesser evil, but an evil nonetheless. Contemporary thought mostly concludes that making the best choice is all that's needed to qualify as the good choice, but antiquated concepts like chivalry and honour don't let people off like that. And this is Jaime's burden; he does not let himself off when many would because the many are not his aspiration; Arthur Dayne is. He cannot take comfort in making the best available choice because he knows Arthur Dayne would still judge the wrong in the act itself, however that contrasts with the available options.

So when he performs what you and I agree is his greatest act, and saves KL, he knows he made the best choice, but he also knows he failed. He broke his oath, betrayed his King, sacrificed his honour. He owns all of it.

And the fact that Ned Stark is the first to arrive and judge is so poignant, because it highlights Jaime's conflict. His intelligence recognizes that Stark judges him without understanding the facts, and is therefore unjust. But the part of him that wants to be Dayne knows the facts won't erase the wrong, and that Ned, a man of honour like Dayne, would inherently weigh both. As Jaime does.

So he never tells anyone because in his mind the rational justification of his act, of his only real choice, does not tell the whole story. The world's understanding would not comfort him because it would not include the likes of Dayne and Stark. They might nod and tell him he made the best choice, but they would never believe him innocent of wrongdoing, of breaking his honour. And so neither can he.

I think the same applies to Bran; in the moment he made the choice that saves more lives/his family over another man's son...and I think new and improved Jaime makes the exact same choice in the same situation...but that doesn't mean he doesn't own the evil of the act.

I think his conversation with Cat in the cage is so revealing because he's not actually arguing with her, but rather letting her see his argument with himself/the world. He feels entirely alone because in his mind there are very few men who actually uphold honour as he sees it...and they are the only peers he wants...but he also knows he cannot stand among them. They wouldn't have him, and the fact that he always made the best choice doesn't sway the only opinions that matter to him. His romantic aspirations for honour have, ultimately, only served to allow him to perceive the Paradise already lost to him forever.