[BOOK SPOILERS] Rant and Rave Without Repercussion

[Ingelheim]

How exactly does he "have" the Vale in the show? Because Royce has said maybe they misjudged him? I don't remember him pledging any fealty to LF, and Robin is still Lord of the Vale.

How is Batfinger going to betray Roose in front of Stannis when he's off to King's Landing this episode?

I think it's pretty obvious LF has a good relationship with Royce in the Show. You just need to see the differences between the book and show. And even if it's not explicitly shown, Royce is loyal to LF through Robin. That's at least what D&D pretend.

You all believe that Royce is going to betray LF, or that he should betray him. But that's not going to happen, and it's clear at this point now. You now may say that then everyone around LF is dumb; I just don't think that. Royce is a completely different character compared to the book version. That's how D&D want it to be, and even if it's wrong to change another character, his loyalty to LF makes sense within the show own context.

I guess LF expects to be back at Winterfell before the battle happens. Or maybe he didn't expect Cersei to summon him to the capital. Since the travels in the show are a mess, I don't know what to say really.

[Ingelheim]

Double post.

[Cas Stark]

I think it's pretty obvious LF has a good relationship with Royce in the Show. You just need to see the differences between the book and show. And even if it's not explicitly shown, Royce is loyal to LF through Robin. That's at least what D&D pretend.

You all believe that Royce is going to betray LF, or that he should betray him. But that's not going to happen, and it's clear at this point now. You now may say that then everyone around LF is dumb; I just don't think that. Royce is a completely different character compared to the book version. That's how D&D want it to be, and even if it's wrong to change another character, his loyalty to LF makes sense with the show own contest.

I guess LF expects to be back at Winterfell before the battle happens. Or maybe he didn't expect Cersei to summon him to the capital. Since the travels in the show are a mess, I don't know what to say really.

I don't believe that. Royce is a nobody in the show and he is totally irrelevant to the level of stupidity of LF marrying Sansa to Ramsay Bolton.

I'm sorry, there is no way to rationalize this plot point as anything but the character making a completely out of character brutally stupid move. There is no way, no rationalizion that can make going to WF and marrying a Bolton a better strategy than waiting in the Vale to see who wins the battle.

[Ingelheim]

I don't believe that. Royce is a nobody in the show and he is totally irrelevant to the level of stupidity of LF marrying Sansa to Ramsay Bolton.

I'm sorry, there is no way to rationalize this plot point as anything but the character making a completely out of character brutally stupid move. There is no way, no rationalizion that can make going to WF and marrying a Bolton a better strategy than waiting in the Vale to see who wins the battle.

Then we just simply disagree. I think it's the better move to actually have an active role in defeating the Boltons than having no role at all and then, later, claim the prize.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

Then we just simply disagree. I think it's the better move to actually have an active role in defeating the Boltons than having no role at all and then, later, claim the prize.

Marrying into the Boltons is not taking an active role in defeating them. The way you've framed the question is wrong.

[Ingelheim]

Marrying into the Boltons is not taking an active role in defeating them. The way you've framed the question is wrong.

Why is it not? If far more easy to destroy the already weak Boltons from the inside than the outside.

[Fjordgazer]

Royce: You motherfucker, stealing from the treasury. How dare you, little worm? Only you had access.

Baelish: No, I didn't do it. The treasury cleaned out itself. I have an alibi. Sansa?

Sansa: He's telling the truth Mr. Royce. I was him him all the time. We went out to drink lemonade and when we came back, the money was gone.

Royce: Here, have my keys and my credit card!

[Cas Stark]

Then we just simply disagree. I think it's the better move to actually have an active role in defeating the Boltons than having no role at all and then, later, claim the prize.

LMAO. Other than "because they write it that way" for what reason would Stannis believe that Littlefinger intended to betray the Boltons and this is why he married Sansa to Ramsay? Because he says so? He's going to say, "Yo, I intended to betray them myself in front of you but that cow Carol Lannister called me back to KL so I couldn't but I was going to to do it.."

And Stannis is going to say 'oh, okay, neat, thanks much, you are my new BFF".

Theoretically, Sansa can become pregnant with a BOLTON HEIR from Day One....which isn't too helpful to Stannis and his cause...nor does it look like an intention to ally with him.

[MordredDayne]

Jon had lead the fight against the wildlings. He is a natural leader, someone Stannis knows to be a capable fighter and commander. Sansa isn't that.

The difference between book LF and Show LF is that, in the show, he actually controls the Vale through Royce's loyalty. In the books, Royce is against him, to the point of raising an army of 20,000 strong, IIRC, to get him out of the Eyrie. In the show, Royce is loyal to LF, because he is, supposedly, protecting Sansa Stark, the daughter and heir of Royce's ward, Ned Stark, and because he is an "enemy" of the Lannisters.

LF still needs the Vale in the books; he already has it in the show. Even if giving up Robin may look stupid, I don't think it is. LF trusts Royce to train him. You may say that trusting Royce is a huge mistake on LF; I say LF controls Royce far better than you all think.

Now, with Sansa...Stannis, unlike the book version, has the upper hand in the battles to come. He has a larger army and Roose has no allies except for LF. LF is the only risk to Stannis' victory. He is, right now, the only one who could help Roose.

That's why I think that if LF actually betrays Roose in front of Stannis, he would think far more highly of him than if he just showed up after the battle with a little girl who did nothing for him and asked for the North.

Ned Stark was never Royce's ward. He was the ward of Jon Arryn. You're right that the Royce of the show is different than the Royce of the book. I think the change is just lazy writing. D&D wanted to get rid of Robin and get Sansa out of the Vale and so they just make Royce a LF toady. They just totally erased the fact that LF, the guy who was the lowest of the low on the totem poll of Vale society, swept in and married the woman who every lord in the Vale was jockeying to marry, gets control over the whole place and starts ordering them around. But no, having a complex political situation to navigate would be totes too hard, especially since they want to go through with this WF plan that doesn't make any sense, so they just strip the whole situation of any complexity and make Royce and LF buddies for the sake of the plot. Sure the situation they've created works in that sense, but IMO it only does so by becoming vapid and uninteresting. Quite a trade off.

[Ingelheim]

LMAO. Other than "because they write it that way" for what reason would Stannis believe that Littlefinger intended to betray the Boltons and this is why he married Sansa to Ramsay? Because he says so? He's going to say, "Yo, I intended to betray them myself in front of you but that cow Carol Lannister called me back to KL so I couldn't but I was going to to do it.."

And Stannis is going to say 'oh, okay, neat, thanks much, you are my new BFF".

Theoretically, Sansa can become pregnant with a BOLTON HEIR from Day One....which isn't too helpful to Stannis and his cause...nor does it look like an intention to ally with him.

1. Stannis has made no mention at all of LF on the show, unlike the book version. We don't even know what he thinks of him.

2. We'll just see. He may have something prepared.

3. Actually, Sansa getting pregnant from Ramsay would help Stannis. He'd control, directly, the Bolton lands, if Roose and Ramsay are dead.

In fact, I've mentioned this many times, not on this thread, but on the book forum: the easiest way for the Starks to get rid of the Boltons is marrying them.

[Le Cygne]

What part of "without repercussion" did you miss again?

[Ingelheim]

What part of "without repercussion" did you miss again?

The part in which someone asked me a question on this thread?

[kissdbyfire]

Then we just simply disagree. I think it's the better move to actually have an active role in defeating the Boltons than having no role at all and then, later, claim the prize.

But how can Batfinger or Sansa or anyone for that matter know that she'll have an active role?

Say I believe that Batfinger has never heard of Ramsay - it's hard for me even to pretend I buy into this, but let's go with it.

Then it's still incredibly stupid because he doesn't know the first thing about the guy he is marrying his biggest asset to.

There's just no way this mess can be explained in a way that makes sense, no matter how you twist the info we have.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

Why is it not? If far more easy to destroy the already weak Boltons from the inside than the outside.

How is surrendering yourself to a disturbed, detested, and distrusted house which massacred your family and all its followers destroying them from the inside? What specifically will she do? What advantage will she gain? Moreover, how is it any better than joining with Stannis and rallying loyal Northmen?

[Ingelheim]

But how can Batfinger or Sansa or anyone for that matter know that she'll have an active role?

Say I believe that Batfinger has never heard of Ramsay - it's hard for me even to pretend I buy into this, but let's go with it.

Then it's still incredibly stupid because he doesn't know the first thing about the guy he is marrying his biggest asset to.

There's just no way this mess can be explained in a way that makes sense, no matter how you twist the info we have.

Well, I think LF will order Sansa to wait untill Stannis arrives. Then he'll order him to poison Ramsay, or Roose, or whatever scheme he has in mind.

The point being, he doesn't give a fuck about Sansa except for her pussy. I don't really think he cares if she gets raped or not.

[Cas Stark]

1. Stannis has made no mention at all of LF on the show, unlike the book version. We don't even know what he thinks of him.

2. We'll just see. He may have something prepared.

3. Actually, Sansa getting pregnant from Ramsay would help Stannis. He'd control, directly, the Bolton lands, if Roose and Ramsay are dead.

In fact, I've mentioned this many times, not on this thread, but on the book forum: the easiest way for the Starks to get rid of the Boltons is marrying them.

Em, yeah, maybe marrying a female Bolton, Sansa marrying a Bolton extinguishes the Stark line and name for intents and purposes and they become Boltons.

[LadySoftheart]

Plus, there's a very good chance she'll get pregnant by Ramsay Bolton ... what happens then? How is she empowered by bearing this psycho a child again? How does this help her cause with Stannis? If there were any Northern lords in the picture (which there aren't), they'd hardly rally around her cause if her cause includes a Bolton baby, methinks!

[Ingelheim]

How is surrendering yourself to a disturbed, detested, and distrusted house which massacred your family and all its followers destroying them from the inside? What specifically will she do? What advantage will she gain? Moreover, how is it any better than joining with Stannis and rallying loyal Northmen?

Wait and see. Jesus, we are still on the fourth episode. Plan isn't even 50% done.

He may order Sansa to kill Ramsay, to abandon him, etc. I don't know, I'm not D&D. I'm just talking about the possibilities. If Sansa or LF does nothing, then I would call it bad writing. But we have 6 episodes left, and Sansa seems to appear in every single one of them. I'll wait and see.

And I think it's better than joining Stannis because it's easier. Roose is outnumbered.

[Troy Reynolds]

Thank, kissedbyfire. Yeah, that scene when Batfinger exposed his plans in the crypts was the moment that, in the back of my head, I saw Fonzie heading for the lake with a pair of waterskies. This show is baby steps from jumping the shark to me. That, and Cersei given the HS an army (wouldn't she need Tommen to sign off on that? The power structure has me completely confused) because there is some gay dude she wants arrest. Both took me completely out of the moment and I couldn't quite reenter.

I could accept Sansa taking the Jeyne storyline if D&D had given me a reason to suspend my disbelief. Instead their idea of "quality" writing is to drive in a finish nail with a sledgehammer. Sure, the nail goes in but it makes one hell of a mess.

For example, if Littlefinger's plan was to rally the North to the Boltons by using exploiting a 15 year old girl in order to crush Stannis, and thus producing a viable alliance between the Boltons and himself, I could swallow it, however disgusting the idea seemed to me. It would at least be consistent for the character and an intelligent plan.

This...travesty of grade school level drivel...how does this not get called out by any self respecting fan of the show. I understand that there are groups amongst the fandom, the tit faction, the gore faction and the I-don't-want-to-look-uncool-at-the-water-cooler faction, that are never going to look at this show with more than a shallow gaze, but, as a post well above pointed out, critics are lapping this shit up as if D&D's piss were Perrier.

[kissdbyfire]

Well, I think LF will order Sansa to wait untill Stannis arrives. Then he'll order him to poison Ramsay, or Roose, or whatever scheme he has in mind.

The point being, he doesn't give a fuck about Sansa except for her pussy. I don't really think he cares if she gets raped or not.

Still. Even if he cares fuck all about Sansa. How on earth can he be sure she'll be able to play any active role? Even something like spiking Roose's hippocras with poison?