Modesty Lannister Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 (edited) Why does trying to be in touch with some semblance of reality make someone a troll?GoTs is the biggest show on TV (by all definitions such as biggest budget, biggest viewership and most downloads) and D&D are still at the helm. Regardless of what you think of the show, these 2 things are kind of impossible to deny.Dynasty was the biggest TV show on Earth. Does that imply quality? And quality is what we are discussing here. Financial success does not always equal quality. And since David Benioff wrote a script for Troy, his track record of butchery of world literature masterpieces does not begin with the GoT. Edited May 15, 2015 by Modesty Lannister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted May 15, 2015 Author Share Posted May 15, 2015 476 votes, 7.24 average, 8 median, 7.42 with top/bottom 5% removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Emperor of Yi Ti Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Dynasty was the biggest TV show on Earth. Does that imply quality? And quality is what we are discussing here. Financial success does not always equal quality. And since David Benioff wrote a script for Troy, his track record of butchery of world literature masterpieces does not begin with the GoT. you're so right. its not just about financial success. I mean like the the hard core 50 1-2-3/10ers are obviously more correct than the the critical consensus that GOT season 5 is right at the top of current TV 91% out of a possible 100% http://www.metacritic.com/tv/game-of-thrones/season-5 what they don't realise is that D&D are butchering vastly superior material; http://www.amazon.com/Feast-Crows-Song-Fire-Thrones/dp/055358202X http://www.amazon.com/Dance-Dragons-Song-Ice-Fire/dp/0553582011 Yep, horrendous artistic failure alright..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 (edited) you're so right. its not just about financial success. I mean like the the hard core 50 1-2-3/10ers are obviously more correct than the the critical consensus that GOT season 5 is right at the top of current TV 91% out of a possible 100% http://www.metacritic.com/tv/game-of-thrones/season-5 what they don't realise is that D&D are butchering vastly superior material; http://www.amazon.com/Feast-Crows-Song-Fire-Thrones/dp/055358202X http://www.amazon.com/Dance-Dragons-Song-Ice-Fire/dp/0553582011 Yep, horrendous artistic failure alright..... Are you seriously saying the show is better that AFFC and ADWD? Wow. And how many of these critics have actually read the books? Do you know how TV industry works? These articles are paid for in 85% percent of the cases by HBO marketing department. And I have no problem with that. Papers sell, the show sells. Forums such as this one are places for more serious discussion by people who actually read the books. Chacun a son gout. ETA: I advise you to look at the tweets by GRRM's UK editor. She'd know a thing or two about the books and the show. Edited May 15, 2015 by Modesty Lannister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Emperor of Yi Ti Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 ETA: I advise you to look at the tweets by GRRM's UK editor. She'd know a thing or two about the books and the show. As has been said before regarding a person with the title of GRRM's editor: People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Emperor of Yi Ti Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Are you seriously saying the show is better that AFFC and ADWD? Wow. And how many of these critics have actually read the books? Do you know how TV industry works? These articles are paid for in 85% percent of the cases by HBO marketing department. And I have no problem with that. Papers sell, the show sells. Forums such as this one are places for more serious discussion by people who actually read the books. Chacun a son gout. The books have dropped from ratings of 90% (4.5/5) or so for the first 3 to 75% ish for the most recent 2. That is thousands of reviews, obviously of well intentioned folk, seeing they have bought the books. So not disastrous, but off the boil and not in the top rank of books being issued. The TV show, for this season continues to be rated at the top on it own merits, which is of course the primary way any artistic endeavour should be considered. You don't need to have read the books to assess it on its own merits. [You do understand that all the TV companies have marketing depts don't you? or am i to assume that the FX shows are at the top because they paid more? ] So it is not a question of comparing the absolute percentages. The show is at the top of the TV game which is all that can be asked of it. This is more of an achievement when the source material quality has dropped off a bit, as judged by the relative book ratings, by all readers, not just the hard core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 The books have dropped from ratings of 90% (4.5/5) or so for the first 3 to 75% ish for the most recent 2. That is thousands of reviews, obviously of well intentioned folk, seeing they have bought the books. So not disastrous, but off the boil and not in the top rank of books being issued. The TV show, for this season continues to be rated at the top on it own merits, which is of course the primary way any artistic endeavour should be considered. You don't need to have read the books to assess it on its own merits. [You do understand that all the TV companies have marketing depts don't you? or am i to assume that the FX shows are at the top because they paid more? ] So it is not a question of comparing the absolute percentages. The show is at the top of the TV game which is all that can be asked of it. This is more of an achievement when the source material quality has dropped off a bit, as judged by the relative book ratings, by all readers, not just the hard core. Since you are judging quality of books by rating on the Amazon, I have nothing further to discuss at all. As for show rating whatever it is rating ON ITS OWN MERIT, it just reconfirms that it has nothing to do with the books and therefore is not an adaptation, but a fan fiction set in GRRM's universe, and that is the key objection of most posters here, we are finally in the agreement. What we do not agree on is the artistic value of said fan fiction. You probably like unnecessary nudity and torture porn, racial and gender stereotypes, plots devoid of any logic etc. Some of us don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God-Emperor of Yi Ti Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Since you are judging quality of books by rating on the Amazon, I have nothing further to discuss at all. As for show rating whatever it is rating ON ITS OWN MERIT, it just reconfirms that it has nothing to do with the books and therefore is not an adaptation, but a fan fiction set in GRRM's universe, and that is the key objection of most posters here, we are finally in the agreement. What we do not agree on is the artistic value of said fan fiction. You probably like unnecessary nudity and torture porn, racial and gender stereotypes, plots devoid of any logic etc. Some of us don't. Again its not about absolute ratings, but the trend- the first 3 books were 90% and above and then drop off to 75%. So thousands upon thousands of readers think the quality has dropped off in 4 and 5, but maybe they are obviously missing out on something visible to the true fans... There is a separate thread about adaptation. Yes you and the true fans are able to see all these appalling flaws that are somehow not visible to critics and the millions who watch. Oh what a burden it must be carry this wisdom among all us millions of blind sheep..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbrowne Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 (edited) Are you seriously saying the show is better that AFFC and ADWD? Wow. And how many of these critics have actually read the books? Do you know how TV industry works? These articles are paid for in 85% percent of the cases by HBO marketing department. And I have no problem with that. Papers sell, the show sells. Forums such as this one are places for more serious discussion by people who actually read the books. Chacun a son gout. ETA: I advise you to look at the tweets by GRRM's UK editor. She'd know a thing or two about the books and the show.Why then do you never shut up about what a garbage the show is? Quit watching and save yourself of the ulcer the show obviously gives to you, everybody is happy.Then again, whenever I encounter people that use words like "butchery" et all to describe something that is lauded both critically and is phenomenally successful commercially it reminds me what Damon Lindelof said about Lost haters. "Oh, these guys are fans. They are ABSOLUTELY fans, pretty much the best there are. They never miss an episode, they go with a fine tooth comb through every scene and detail and they are the most vocal about the show on the internet. We are very thankful for these guys".Reviews are bought by HBO? Mind boggles. Wonder why another HBO show, penned by one of the most respected writers on TV now, Aaron Sorkin, was mostly AGGRESSIVELY critically panned. Maybe HBO ran out of cash there? Edited May 15, 2015 by jacksonbrowne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Again its not about absolute ratings, but the trend- the first 3 books were 90% and above and then drop off to 75%. So thousands upon thousands of readers think the quality has dropped off in 4 and 5, but maybe they are obviously missing out on something visible to the true fans... There is a separate thread about adaptation. Yes you and the true fans are able to see all these appalling flaws that are somehow not visible to critics and the millions who watch. Oh what a burden it must be carry this wisdom among all us millions of blind sheep..... Get over yourself. I gave the latest episode an 8, which is a very high mark. I am just defending everyone's right to an opinion. Meanwhile you are defending the right to praise the show. If you live in a la la land where newspaper critics are not paid to write good reviews for a show that is scoring tons of money, please do not let me stop you. But, let other people disagree with that. Or move to North Korea, the land of one opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 (edited) Dynasty was the biggest TV show on Earth. Does that imply quality? And quality is what we are discussing here. Financial success does not always equal quality. And since David Benioff wrote a script for Troy, his track record of butchery of world literature masterpieces does not begin with the GoT. I never even mentioned it's financial success - I gauged biggest on how big a budget it gets and how many people watch it. The cinema cut of Troy was shit - but the extended cut was ok. Edited May 15, 2015 by ummester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Why then do you never shut up about what a garbage the show is? Quit watching and save yourself of the ulcer the show obviously gives to you, everybody is happy.Then again, whenever I encounter people that use words like "butchery" et all to describe something that is lauded both critically and is phenomenally successful commercially it reminds me what Damon Lindelof said about Lost haters. "Oh, these guys are fans. They are ABSOLUTELY fans, pretty much the best there are. They never miss an episode, they go with a fine tooth comb through every scene and detail and they are the most vocal about the show on the internet. We are very thankful for these guys".Reviews are bought by HBO? Mind boggles. Wonder why another HBO show, penned by one of the most respected writers on TV now, Aaron Sorkin, was mostly AGGRESSIVELY critically panned. Maybe HBO runned out of cash there?I will never shut up. Deal with it. Following your own advice, feel free not to read what I write. There is a wonderful "ignore" option on this forum for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 (edited) dp Edited May 15, 2015 by Modesty Lannister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 I never even mentioned it's financial success - I gauged biggest on how big a budget it gets and how many people watch it. The cinema cut of Troy was shit - but the extended cut was ok. That is financial success by definition. I guess you never read "The Iliad". And if you are ok with Troy than it makes perfect sense that you love the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 i dont understand how some people consider that cogman is so better than D&D and everything he writes is best compared to the D&D.. for me he takes lots of lines from books which satisfy some people other than that i dont see any difference at all...this episode was one of the badly written in case of dany alone..iam willing to forgive about the dragons scene but the marriage proposal was changed in a way that changes the dynamics of both Dany and hizdar ..reading the comments it looks like lots of people feel sympathy for hizdar and comparing dany to RAmsay that she will treat hizdar in the same way ramsay is going to treat sansa ..Seriously ..i dont know who is main character anymore hizdar and the great masters or dany . Agreed. The only episode of his that was actually great was Kissed by Fire, and a lot of that was the strength of the material he was adapting. His season 2 episode was really overrated. It was good in comparison to D&D's episodes, of course, because he actually seems to respect the source material. But he's not a particularly good writer, and it shows. ... Which is why D&D need to stop promoting their assistants and actually hire qualified writers. But why would they want anyone who'd challenge them when they can just hire sycophants? They're Cersei, LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 (edited) That is financial success by definition. I guess you never read "The Iliad". And if you are ok with Troy than it makes perfect sense that you love the show. No, haven't read the Illiad. I do understand that the Illiad is darker than the film Troy, however - and I think that, so far, GoTs is on the same basic path of darkness as the novels. Audiences have changed between the release of the film Troy and now - Western society didn't hate (or should I say doubt) itself as much when Troy was released, as it does now. If Troy was released now, it would be closer to the Illiad, perhaps not exactly the same - but closer. This is the thing with commercial art - it has to cater to it's audience. Edited May 15, 2015 by ummester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 (edited) No, haven't read the Illiad. I do understand that the Illiad is darker than the film Troy, however - and I think that, so far, GoTs is on the same basic path of darkness as the novels. Audiences have changed between the release of the film Troy and now - Western society didn't hate (or should I say doubt) itself as much when Troy was released, as it does now. If Troy was released now, it would be closer to the Illiad, perhaps not exactly the same - but closer. This is the thing with commercial art - it has to cater to it's audience. Commercial art is something else entirely. This is a popular entertainment. As such it is not art. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_art Qualifying a masterpiece you never read as "dark" just makes me cringe. I am not following your assessment on western self-hate and darkness, so I simply cannot comment. ETA: Had you read The Iliad, you'd understand what Daenerys has been doing in Meereen in the books. Since Benioff "adapted" The Iliad onto the screen, he should as well, but hey ... Edited May 15, 2015 by Modesty Lannister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boojam Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Seriously? Seriously? Seriously. Especially the dialog. Crisp and well organized. The Bolton dinner conversation was so off the wall crazy I was amazed Cogman could push that many buttons. Seems Cogman does not usually write Dany stuff and this time out he was good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 (edited) Commercial art is something else entirely. This is a popular entertainment. As such it is not art. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_art Qualifying a masterpiece you never read as "dark" just makes me cringe. I am not following your assessment on western self-hate and darkness, so I simply cannot comment. Anything that is sold, or makes a profit, is commercial. Anything that is creative, or involves artisans, of any kind, can be classified as art, can't it? Popular entertainment would still be commercial art, wouldn't it? The wiki article apparently has multiple issues and requires citation. The Illiad is darker than Troy because the resolution was less hopeful, the herosim less pronounced and more people died in it. Dark, negative - not positive or hopeful. If society is positive about itself, hopeful of positive stories and films will appeal. When society is negative about itself, or doubts its direction, hopeless or negative stories appeal. Sometimes, art, stories, films, whatever can be out of sync and drive change - but not as often as something that is in sync can profit. Edited May 15, 2015 by ummester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modesty Lannister Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Agreed. The only episode of his that was actually great was Kissed by Fire, and a lot of that was the strength of the material he was adapting. His season 2 episode was really overrated. It was good in comparison to D&D's episodes, of course, because he actually seems to respect the source material. But he's not a particularly good writer, and it shows. ... Which is why D&D need to stop promoting their assistants and actually hire qualified writers. But why would they want anyone who'd challenge them when they can just hire sycophants? They're Cersei, LOL. That's why they love her and miss the fact that she's gone mad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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