"Lyanna was at the ToJ" = not canon

[King Rickon I]

There's also no canon proof that the Dusky is not, in fact, Tywin.

Not a theory that can be backed by canon text, but why should Tywin be practically the only character to not come back from the dead?

[King Rickon I]

PLEASE STOP THIS MADNESS!

Same here.

English are not my first language so anyone is welcome to correct me. In my language we have the word πρωτότοκος, it means the one who has been born first. When there is only one child, it is called μοναχοπαίδι, if there is only one son in a family of one or more children and the other children are girls then it is μοναχογιός. When someone is using πρωτότοκος γιος it means that in that family there are more than one sons. How on GRRTH could someone use that word for a family with only one son?Seriously now

You consider a correct interpretation of the text (the OP) madness? Or do you consider building a theory on text from in book only to be madness?

[King Rickon I]

Reading the passages..

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

These three things, Ned dreams about. The tower that was once there, but no more, the three knights, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. These three things belong together, and while Lyanna's "screams" are actually Vayon Poole's attempts to wake Ned up, it establishes that she is present there..

We also read that Lyanna died in a room that smelled of blood and roses.. blood, whereas in the dream, she was in her bed of blood. should be enough to connect those two together as well..

Neds dream won't have been literal.. I imagine there was more conversation, for example, but why dream of Lyanna being present there, when she never was?

Opinions should not be presented as fact on wiki's, I completely agree..there are theory-pages for that, and I'm not a fan of those either..

I don't know who wrote those specific wiki-entries, but both the Citadel and the app are under Rans immediate supervision.. especially when sourced, there will be no personal opinion there..

Even the mention of "many believe it related to..." is a fact, because many do believe that. But that doesn't mean that you have to believe it too, when you read it.

Those 3 belong together as in they were in the same dream. This dream does not establish Lyanna was ever at the tower in real life (in story not Ned's dreamland).

You're starting with the wrong question. Ned didn't dream of Lyanna being present at the Tower. He had a dream that included both Lyanna and the tower. One is not like the other.

[King Rickon I]

I can't believe people are still trying to debunk this. Even GRRM himself has stopped trying to deny R+L=J.

People simply can't stand the fact that they already figured it out, so they assume they *must* be wrong simply because they HAVE figured it out already.

I'd love to see your supporting evidence, good Ser.

[King Rickon I]

As is often the case, Ygrain - you and I are in agreement. Nothing in the above quoted statement contradicts my view in any way. :cheers:

I'll second the bolded :cheers:

[King Rickon I]

Anyone with an account on here can edit the wiki. The personal insult against a user who spends a lot of time fact checking dates is not OK.

No personal insult. Just facts. Editors should, IMO, be held to a high standard of comprehension of the text of the books. There are cited examples of his editing errors that demonstrate his lack of comprehension of ASOIAF text....in this very thread if you feel like finding them.

[King Rickon I]

And I'd like a fact check on my OP.

I'd like to see what Ran thinks of it.

[Ser Crow]

To guard something, I suppose.

Guarding what? I see a lot of disagreement, but no alternate explanations.

[plectrum]

Guarding what? I see a lot of disagreement, but no alternate explanations.

This. This right here. It's one thing to contest what is generally considered cannon, but if you do that you'll get a lot more converts if you can provide an alternative explanation that makes some sense.

I joked earlier in the thread, but the real point is that Lyanna is so closely associated with the TOJ in the mind of the only eyewitness we have encountered so far in the series that it certainly seems to be strongly implied that she was there. If you want to say "well, it was a dream," that's fine. However, given that the dream is literally the only thing giving us any direction on this, the suggestion that we disregard it seems shortsighted.

At the moment, it certainly looks like every bit of evidence points to her being there, while nothing whatsoever would lead you to believe she was elsewhere.

[Visenya Stark]

He also in a different conscious moment thinks to himself that he hasn't thought of Rhaegar in years...awful weird if you've been knowingly raising the man's son for 15 years.

Ned actually thinks of Rhaegar several times in his POV chapters. Here's one example from his very first POV chapter:

“I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her.”

“You did,” Ned reminded him.

“Only once,” Robert said bitterly.

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert’s hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free from his armor.

“In my dreams, I kill him every night,” Robert admitted. “A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves. “

There was nothing Ned could say to that.

Also, Ned was raising Jon for 14 years.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

:Someone could just add the word "allegedly" in a few choice places on the wiki and this whole discussion would be moot. But that would be a waste of good popcorn.:

Or, someone could add only textual facts to the wiki with theories and suggestions seperate from said facts. Then, this discussion would possibly not exist.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Bullshit.

Is this Hightower fanfic?

[Ygrain]

You're pretending a dream isn't a dream in order to support your opinion. Why not build a theory based on the ASOIAF text as written? I'd imagine such a theory would have far less holes than RLJ. RLJ gets especially when you throw in the addons that many of you do, that R+L married in front of the weirwood on the Isle of Faces, Lyanna's crypt containing a dragon egg, harp, wedding license, a notarized dissolution of marriage, a lock of Rhaegar's hair, etc etc etc etc

It makes for an incredibly unstable foundation. I wouldn't be too comfortable sitting on top a straw house that was in danger of collapsing if I inhale too deeply thought outside the box.

"He dreamt an old dream about A, B and C" is the text exactly as it is written, where "old" is a quality and A,B and C summation of the content. All in all, a description. Then we have the actual content of the dream (interspersed by comments like "years leech at memory") with elements X, Y and Z, which also appear in a lucid waking memory ("Promise me, she whispered in a room that smelled of blood and roses"), and in both these cases it is the text as it is written.

On, and don't bother replying, King Benjen/Tyrion or whatever you call yourself now.

[Eira Seren]

"He dreamt an old dream about A, B and C" is the text exactly as it is written, where "old" is a quality and A,B and C summation of the content. All in all, a description. Then we have the actual content of the dream (interspersed by comments like "years leech at memory") with elements X, Y and Z, which also appear in a lucid waking memory ("Promise me, she whispered in a room that smelled of blood and roses"), and in both these cases it is the text as it is written.

On, and don't bother replying, King Benjen/Tyrion or whatever you call yourself now.

Hmm. Slightly hostile.

[Ygrain]

Hmm. Slightly hostile.

Seven forbid that I responded in kind to a condescending post. Double standards much?

[TheSmallOther]

Those 3 belong together as in they were in the same dream. This dream does not establish Lyanna was ever at the tower in real life (in story not Ned's dreamland).

You're starting with the wrong question. Ned didn't dream of Lyanna being present at the Tower. He had a dream that included both Lyanna and the tower. One is not like the other.

I agree. And there is a quote (don't have my books now, so no exact text) how "they found him" later, holding Lyanna's hand. "They"? Where only Ned and Howland survived? And then RLJ fandom starts telling everyone about team of nurses, servants, etc. All sitting in a small tower. While it would be possible to asume Lyanna died in another place, Starfall for example.

[Ygrain]

I agree. And there is a quote (don't have my books now, so no exact text) how "they found him" later, holding Lyanna's hand. "They"? Where only Ned and Howland survived? And then RLJ fandom starts telling everyone about team of nurses, servants, etc. All sitting in a small tower. While it would be possible to asume Lyanna died in another place, Starfall for example.

I very much relish in the idea of Hightower doing the laundry and Dayne cutting the umbilic cord with Dawn, don't you? Besides, the three KG are standing before an empty tower because...? Ned is dreaming about the KG AND the tower AND Lyanna because...?

Ned and HR are the only survivors of the fight outside the tower. How does this preclude other people being present inside the tower? Team is purely your fabrication; if the tower was big enough to contain four people, one or two more shouldn't have a problem to squeeze in.

[wolfmaid7]

Ned actually thinks of Rhaegar several times in his POV chapters. Here's one example from his very first POV chapter:

Also, Ned was raising Jon for 14 years.

Hard not to think of Rhaegar here seeing as....... Robert was the one that brought him up.

[Eira Seren]

Seven forbid that I responded in kind to a condescending post. Double standards much?

Not especially. Are you saying if someone throws mud, we should by all means respond in kind?

His point interests me, that the speculations we add to our theories get tangled up in the theories, until we have trouble taking them back apart again and looking at what's really there.

For instance,

("Promise me, she whispered in a room that smelled of blood and roses"), and in both these cases it is the text as it is written.

Yep. It's the text as written. It says "promise me" etc. but promise what? That is never stated.

Instead, we've tried building a case for what that promise could be. It's one interpretation, and like any theory, will only be as good as it's practice, which is what's born out in the text, not any more theories or speculations we construct around it to support it. And until GRRM writes the words "Jon, Rhaegar is your father" (I hear darth vadar style breathing when I write this), or we get something more concrete than what we've got to go on, such as an actual flashback with wedding, or shagging and declarations of undying love, or something,

All we've got is theories we're chasing. No practice.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If the info predates the app, it comes from people who would likely claim they have read the books, but by no means does that tell us the info is from the books and accurate.

Then I guess you'll have to take it up with those who own and manage this forum and its community.

:Someone could just add the word "allegedly" in a few choice places on the wiki and this whole discussion would be moot. But that would be a waste of good popcorn.:

If that will stop the madness..

No personal insult. Just facts. Editors should, IMO, be held to a high standard of comprehension of the text of the books. There are cited examples of his editing errors that demonstrate his lack of comprehension of ASOIAF text....in this very thread if you feel like finding them.

First of all, it is 'her', not 'his'. And, it did sort of feel like a personal insult. You might not have meant it as such, that's how it came across.

Second, we have quite a lot of sources, and that includes the app. Unless the app contradicts the info from the books, app info also counts, and is thus applied on the wiki.

You might feel that it is not clear from the books, but at such areas, the app usually clarifies. You disagree with the clarification, and so you call it someone's own interpretation, and you can do that, but it does not change the fact that an accepted sources states that Lyanna died at ToJ.

I am not responsible for every single word on that wiki, nor am I capable of telling you who placed something on a page in the years before I joined the fandom, and why that user used the source and wording that he/she did. A source was asked for here, and I provided one. Should that piece of info ever be removed from the app, naturally, the wording on the pages could do with some editing.. but until that momen, we have a source stating that Ned found her dying in ToJ, quite clearly.