Brian told us Everything we need to know

[Natalia Borgia]

I think that when you give up creative control to guys who write for HBO then you are not surprised when they screw up your magnum opus.

[Natalia Borgia]

Dratted double post- anyway the show has become a loose adaptation like the "based on true events" crime shows.

[Fjordgazer]

The entire post basically says "Quit e-mailing me about how much you don't like the TV adaptation."

That's all there is to it. No point in trying to find some argument here that defends the show, or otherwise.

[ummester]

If he thinks the series is shit he wouldn't say it, he is getting a check.

So he lies for money? Not much honour in that, is there?

Yes, GRRM is responsible because he didn't have the power to foresee in 2007 that two guys who seemed interested in the books and seemed to understand them (as was proved by their good first seasons), would make substantial changes to the show in the 5th season! Shame on him!

Possibly, if that is how you view - but, as above, that makes his blog post dishonest.

Didn't they approach him? I wonder if GRRM thought the show would be a commercial success? Not like the books were mainstream before the show.

Yes, they approached him - but from what I understand a few people had, for cinema and TV and it was D&D that GRRM choose because they knew who Jon's parents were, amongst other things that GRRM took to mean they understood his story.

And, if he was more interested in getting commercial exposure than the quality of the adaptation, then what does this say about how GRRM views his own creation?

[Valetudo]

I think that when you give up creative control to guys who write for HBO then you are not surprised when they screw up your magnum opus.

Well, I believe it's quite the contrary. GRRM was pretty happy to sell the adaptations rights to HBO because of the amount of shows with good writing present on HBO (The Wire, Sopranos,...)

Really, what better option would he have?

[ummester]

Well, I believe it's quite the contrary. GRRM was pretty happy to sell the adaptations rights to HBO because of the amount of shows with good writing present on HBO (The Wire, Sopranos,...)

Really, what better option would he have?

Peter Jackson? :D

I haven't seen the Wire - but I think GoTs is still on par with Sopranos. I watched all of Sopranos back to back, after the fact and there were definitely episodes - even entire season, just after the halfway point, where it started to lag or feel like it was losing direction.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Peter Jackson? :D

I haven't seen the Wire - but I think GoTs is still on par with Sopranos. I watched all of Sopranos back to back, after the fact and there were definitely episodes - even entire season, just after the halfway point, where it started to lag or feel like it was losing direction.

Please do yourself a favor and watch The Wire.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

It's good to know that GRRM is far more reasonable than many of his fans.

Prose and television have different strengths, different weaknesses, different requirements.

David and Dan and Bryan and HBO are trying to make the best television series that they can.

And over here I am trying to write the best novels that I can.

And yes, more and more, they differ. Two roads diverging in the dark of the woods, I suppose... but all of us are still intending that at the end we will arrive at the same place.

A wheelbarrow full of cash can do that... especially given some of his previous comments. To whit:

No, absolutely not, your character may not rape my character, I don't give a fuck how powerful you think it would be

and

No one gets to abuse the people of Westeros but me.

Now the thing is, people are citing his most recent comments as evidence he is supporting the change. He isn't supporting it and he isn't denouncing it. He is drawing a line in the sand to make a clear definition of difference between his work and theirs. He is trying to protect his work from the criticism of the show and the splashover garnered by people claiming that he is closely involved with the production. Simple fact is, he does not have any decision-making power on the show. It is not his work. He sold it.

[Lady Sansa's Direwolf]

How many people have stopped and really thought about how long it would take to adapt every chapter and verse of just the available books, not to mention the two yet to come? It would be a longer running show than "Days of Our Lives" or "All My Children".

Though I am not happy with 100% of every episode, D&D have taken the course of separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. GRRM's opus spreads over an entire planet, with hundreds of characters and minor story lines that eventually peter out or disappear. In order to make viable programming, they have had to plot out all these and shorten by deleting or combining characters, stories, relationships, etc. That alone gives me a headache.

In the end, both end in the same place. One will take approximately 30 years to accomplish. The other will take 7 years (perhaps more). Do the math people. I think they are doing the best they can with the time allowed. If it were a 5 day a week soap opera, they still couldn't cover everything in the seasons currently contracted.

[Valetudo]

How many people have stopped and really thought about how long it would take to adapt every chapter and verse of just the available books, not to mention the two yet to come? It would be a longer running show than "Days of Our Lives" or "All My Children".

Though I am not happy with 100% of every episode, D&D have taken the course of separating the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. GRRM's opus spreads over an entire planet, with hundreds of characters and minor story lines that eventually peter out or disappear. In order to make viable programming, they have had to plot out all these and shorten by deleting or combining characters, stories, relationships, etc. That alone gives me a headache.

In the end, both end in the same place. One will take approximately 30 years to accomplish. The other will take 7 years (perhaps more). Do the math people. I think they are doing the best they can with the time allowed. If it were a 5 day a week soap opera, they still couldn't cover everything in the seasons currently contracted.

Why is that a recurring argument?

I haven't seen anybody, even the biggest die-hard fan of the books, complaining about the show because it didn't contain everything from the books.

[ToTheWolves]

I understand the whole they are doing the best they can stuff;that's fine, I think most people realistically understand there is no way to 100% stay faithful to the books, but I think pretty much everyone can admit some of the writing is lazy and kind of sloppy. Dorne seriously looks like they didn't even try, like they were seriously like "whatever they'll eat this shit up" I mean something has to be wrong because even non book readers are starting to question it.

[R4W13Y]

Why is that a recurring argument?

I haven't seen anybody, even the biggest die-hard fan of the books, complaining about the show because it didn't contain everything from the books.

It's a strawmen argument that just will not fucking die. Seriously, has anyone spouting this defense actually read the majority of the complaints/discussions on these threads? They can't possibly have, otherwise they wouldn't come to the conclusion that we are just upset the show isn't a page by page adaptation of the novels.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

It's a strawmen argument that just will not fucking die. Seriously, has anyone spouting this defense actually read the majority of the complaints/discussions on these threads? They can't possibly have, otherwise they wouldn't come to the conclusion that we are just upset the show isn't a page by page adaptation of the novels.

^ This

It has become such a repetitive strawman I now consider trolling.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

It's a strawmen argument that just will not fucking die. Seriously, has anyone spouting this defense actually read the majority of the complaints/discussions on these threads? They can't possibly have, otherwise they wouldn't come to the conclusion that we are just upset the show isn't a page by page adaptation of the novels.

I haven't read all of these threads but I'm yet to see someone complain because it's not word for word like the books. Anyone with sense knew that GRRM's has way to many subplots to get everything exactly like the books. Changes were inevitable, merging of characters from and time and even cost standpoint were inevitable, even making shit up out of thin air was inevitable. I think most just aren't satisfied with the way it's playing out. Example, adding the Robb's wife to the Red Wedding. I'm cool with that. Hell, it pretty much kills the Robb's heir theory, so cool. Dropping Aegon, I'm cool with that too. That was kind of boring in the books to me. Bronn's arc that's a decent change too. But i could go down a list of changes and adds and merges that really are head scratchers and seem like laziness to me.

Mitch Hedberg once said "you can't please all the people all the time and last night all those people were at my show". I think that fits here. We all had ideas and things we wanted to see and when they don't happen, for fans it's tough to swallow.

[R4W13Y]

^ This

It has become such a repetitive strawman I now consider trolling.

Agreed. If it's not used to further a discussion or to engage with others, it's trolling.

[ummester]

Now the thing is, people are citing his most recent comments as evidence he is supporting the change. He isn't supporting it and he isn't denouncing it. He is drawing a line in the sand to make a clear definition of difference between his work and theirs. He is trying to protect his work from the criticism of the show and the splashover garnered by people claiming that he is closely involved with the production. Simple fact is, he does not have any decision-making power on the show. It is not his work. He sold it.

And my argument is, if he really cared about it as his own creation, and believed that 'no-one gets to abuse the people of Westeros but him' he would not have sold it. He is drawing his line in the sand after the fact, which makes it kind of pointless.

Now, I may sound sanctimonious, or whatever, as others have noted - but I am fully aware that if I was in the same position as GRRM, I would probably have sold it also - a bird in the hand and all that.

What I am trying to point out is that, at the time GRRM sold his unfinished work for adaptation, it was corrupted. You can try and blame who you want now - but it doesn't change that the corruption occurred, as agreed upon by GRRM, at the point of sale.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

And my argument is, if he really cared about it as his own creation, and believed that 'no-one gets to abuse the people of Westeros but him' he would not have sold it. He is drawing his line in the sand after the fact, which makes it kind of pointless.

Now, I may sound sanctimonious, or whatever, as others have noted - but I am fully aware that if I was in the same position as GRRM, I would probably have sold it also - a bird in the hand and all that.

What I am trying to point out is that, at the time GRRM sold his unfinished work for adaptation, it was corrupted. You can try and blame who you want now - but it doesn't change that the corruption occurred, as agreed upon by GRRM, at the point of sale.

Sure.

But it also cannot be said that he agrees with and endorses everything that has been done. His recent comments are not him being 'more reasonable than the fandom' at all. He is trying to protect his work by making a clear separation between it and the other production he has no say in.

[Lord Godric]

And my argument is, if he really cared about it as his own creation, and believed that 'no-one gets to abuse the people of Westeros but him' he would not have sold it. He is drawing his line in the sand after the fact, which makes it kind of pointless.

Now, I may sound sanctimonious, or whatever, as others have noted - but I am fully aware that if I was in the same position as GRRM, I would probably have sold it also - a bird in the hand and all that.

What I am trying to point out is that, at the time GRRM sold his unfinished work for adaptation, it was corrupted. You can try and blame who you want now - but it doesn't change that the corruption occurred, as agreed upon by GRRM, at the point of sale.

Emphasis on the unfinished part. Let's give GRRM the blame he deserves, if he didn't want people taking liberties with his work, which I think we can all agree he didn't (its why he didn't want to do the movie per book format), he shouldn't have been so foolish to sell the rights to HBO when he only had four books published! I know he's optimistic to a fault, but the fact that the show has to go so far away from the books is because they no longer have his source material. I think people don't blame George enough for the problem we all saw from Season 1, that the show would surpass him and in doing so be drastically different.

[Valetudo]

And my argument is, if he really cared about it as his own creation, and believed that 'no-one gets to abuse the people of Westeros but him' he would not have sold it. He is drawing his line in the sand after the fact, which makes it kind of pointless.

Now, I may sound sanctimonious, or whatever, as others have noted - but I am fully aware that if I was in the same position as GRRM, I would probably have sold it also - a bird in the hand and all that.

What I am trying to point out is that, at the time GRRM sold his unfinished work for adaptation, it was corrupted. You can try and blame who you want now - but it doesn't change that the corruption occurred, as agreed upon by GRRM, at the point of sale

Of course, not selling it, and then pass up the millions of dollars and fame that goes with that, was a valid option.

Everybody knows that writers that care about their work live on fresh air!

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Emphasis on the unfinished part. Let's give GRRM the blame he deserves, if he didn't want people taking liberties with his work, which I think we can all agree he didn't (its why he didn't want to do the movie per book format), he shouldn't have been so foolish to sell the rights to HBO when he only had four books published! I know he's optimistic to a fault, but the fact that the show has to go so far away from the books is because they no longer have his source material. I think people don't blame George enough for the problem we all saw from Season 1, that the show would surpass himand in doing so be drastically different.

Interesting points. i think it's all the subplots. Honestly I've wondered how in the hell 2 more books are going to wrap up this story, there are so many open subplots out there right now.