Debating Sansa

[Annara Snow]

In book is kinda implied that they expect Sansa to have a child because that child would be "Ned Stark's grandson", nevertheless. They would be following that kid, independently of who the father is. Legally, the heir of the North would be either a Lannister son of Tyrion or a Bolton son of Ramsay, but for the Northerns, they would only mind the mother is Ned's daughter.

That's what the Lannisters were hoping. I don't think they were right.

[Annara Snow]

dp God this board can be slow...

[Ser Creighton]

I don't get the Jeyne argument that some people are trying to make, saying that fans didn't care about Jeyne. I don't know any fans on this site who have not felt horrible for Jeyne and wanted to see Ramsey pay for that. There are people in the books we never meet, and I cared about what happened to them, like the 163 crucified children.

Now I agree with Linda and Elio that once Sansa was there this was going to happen, we all knew that, are at least suspected heavily. But as I said in the only 3 posts I have written on the subject what was the purpose of her character being placed there? Now when you look at Ramsey and Theon that is a much more organic story, it really is and follows the books far more closely. I understand why Theon is there. But to get Sansa there, the writers and producers erased one arc, the Vale arc, and replaced it with an often convienant idiot plot in order to place her at Winterfell so she could be raped.

I don't need to wait for the next episode to know they did that, bcause that is what they did. I can't say the plot makes much sense at all, and LF has to become an idiot at times in order to make it work and their is some broken logic and really so far it has been lazy and writing riddled with plot holes in order to get her there, and quickly abandon her there.

I mean honestly I feel like you only touch on the stupidty it took to get her there for a brief second and then say well once she was there it was going to happen and there is nothing that could be done about it. That's not exactly a great debate point. Well how she got there is stupid, but she is there so it had to happen. And in truth it did not have to happen, if they are going to use an idiot plot to get here there, they can use an idiot plot to not make it happen. Ramsey doing it felt in character for him, yeah but getting her there and leaving her there and the stupidity it took to get her there does not feel well written at all it feels forced and cheap. It is clearly poorly manufactured. As I have pointed out before, they don't mind removing dark moments for the books, like Tyrions abuse of the prostitute in Volantis. But not here.

For me it is not just about the moment, it is about the new arc they gave her and how poorly contrived and manufactured it is, and with what purpose? Well I saw the purpose, it was to have her raped. Now I don't care if the third stage of this arc has some cheap emotional pay off, because stage one and two are crap. Yeah great rape the plot device used to give agency to her empowerment. Because she has not been building in that direction, and yes I expect ups and downs, but I tend to expect them between her and LF, not her and Ramsey. Having her raped felt like nothing more than a cheap trick to generate an emotional response and it should never be a cheap and lazy. I say cheap and lazy because you know how she got there and LF being a clueless idiot was cheap and lazy writing.

I would also address that I have read that Sansa made the choice, to go to Winterfell and marry Ramsey. Did she really have a choice though? Lets see it's not until after she is out of the Vale that LF informers her of his plan and the marriage is already arranged. She did say she didn't want to go, but LF said avenge them. So she said ok. Now I believe this is her plan, or at least I hope it is her plan. But once at Winterfell, and LF is gone Sansa has no other options. What is she going to do say no? Then what? She can't leave, they are not going to let her leave, she is just as valuable as a hostage. They can turn her over to the crown, she can be a hostage, another woman for Ramsey to hunt. She has to yes, se has to do it just like she didn't really have a choice with Tyrion. Saying yes when yes is your only real option is not a choice.

Look it is very clear there is a lot you can do with Sansa and Ramsey, and that this could of been a great arc. But part of that arc was the set up, it was getting her there and putting her in this situation and that was pure crap. She already had sympathy, and she already had agency, bu I can''t go wow she ot LF are being really clever after the writers have her stumble into Winterfell with a poorly manufactured transition in arcs.

I totally get the idea that is right that Sansa and Theon deal with Ramsey, what the Boltons did to her family and what Ramsey did to Theon. That is the agency, I also get they wanted to show that part of Sansas strength is that what she endures on her wedding night is suppose to be her strength, she is letting this happen to avenge her family. Except there was no real choice in the matter, she does not really have a choice in letting this happen once she is at Winterfell and LF basiclly tricked into going and did not inform her till they were already on the way and she really had no options. She can't even really say no to LF because once out of the Vale she is under his thumb again.

She may very well get out from under LF's thumb and avenge her family, and I am all for that, but it still does not change the setup for me. On your advice I will give it a chance, but this better be some serious good writing. Because personally I think they should of shown her wedding night as having more of a choice, where she was in a better position of strength and did it anyway because she is trying to avenge her family, that is not what I saw, I saw her victimized again, and I saw giant pile of bad writing in order to get her there to be victimized and I am not going to ignore those aspects of this arc, even if the ending of it is epic.

Yes it would be great if Theon and Sansa work together, if she helps him and he helps her, and Brie has a hand because she is tied by her vow as well. Yes it would be great if she escaped and Ramsey went after them with the hounds in the Wolfs wood, and then Nymeria shows up with the pack and Sansa Wargs her and rips Ramsey to pieces. I doubt that happens as Nymeria and the Dire Wolves seem to have gone extinct again, but again it does not change the setup to this that was poorly handled and written.

ETA: I think the writers could of made this arc a very good arc, had they not rushed it, and spent a little more time with the setup. And they could of done that, there was time to be had, but instead they wanted to put Dorne in. Look if you can erase the Iron Islands you can erase Dorne. I would much rather have a central POVs arc handled well and have it be given the time it deserves and needs rather than the steaming pile of dog shit that is Dorne. I think I get where they wanted to go with Sansa here, but rushing it hasnot been good for the arc. Put the budget in the North, put the extras in th north, Dorne is dead end, they pretty much removed what mattered from Dorne and then still tried to do it. That is clearly where they needed the time and money. Sure they got a great film location for the water gardens, but as my dad used to say, "just because you can does not mean you should." It is a waste of time and money.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

That's what the Lannisters were hoping. I don't think they were right.

Well, considering Cersei's children are Lannisters in everything but name (for the public eye, I mean), one wonders why Tywin never thought Tyrion's son with Sansa would be the same: a Stark in everything but name. I suppose he felt Sansa would never try to make her child's rights to validate or that Tyrion would keep the Northerns at bay and pleased that they have half a Stark as their leader. True is that as soon as that baby is born a boy, Tyrion could have been slaughtered by a hundred pissed off Northerns who the would have acclaimed the baby as King Stark in the North. :dunno:

[protar]

My thoughts (from another forum) on LF's plan, and why it doesn't make sense and is clearly just a hastily written shoe-in plot so that Sansa could be put in Jeyne's place:

"LF's plan really doesn't make sense. Let's go through it all shall we? Even if the Lannisters are losing some power that's no excuse for LF committing treason out in the open like that. It also makes little sense that Roose would accept his offer. He's risking his entire position in the Lannister Axis powers (if you will), for not really much gain. Gaining some semblance of legitimacy by marrying into House Stark is nice, but the other Northerners will still hate him. It's not worth the tradeoff in the show, because it's behind the Lannister's backs. It's also weird that LF doesn't know about the kind of monster Ramsay is.

Then Cersei calls LF back to KL because she has "urgent need of him." Now Cersei should be pretty suspicious about the timing of LF's arrival in KL. She thinks he's still in The Vale, but LF is hundreds of miles further away and has to wait for Cersei's letter reach the Eyrie and then be sent on to him in Winterfell. So LF is arriving weeks if not months later than he should have if he were in the Vale. Isn't Cersei suspicious? Then it turns out that Cersei didn't really have urgent need of LF at all: All the important information in their conversation is what LF brings up. Cersei has nothing of import to tell him or ask him to do. So this seems like a contrivance to have Sansa alone at Winterfell.

And then we get LF's plan - he's organised things such that whatever happens between Stannis and Roose, he gets to be warden of the north. This part is perhaps the most logical thing here, but it's still not very logical. Surely this plan can be enacted without putting Sansa in Winterfell? Couldn't LF keep Sansa safe and disguised at The Eyrie, but still tell Cersei that Bolton has betrayed her and married Sansa? Why risk Sansa being killed in the fighting, or getting flayed alive? Why does Cersei trust LF's word on this? Why even go to Cersei in the first place? The Vale and The North are well beyond the reach of KL, especially as Winter comes. Why does LF need Cersei's permission to take his own Arryn troops north to claim Winterfell?

In short, D+D really wanted this scene to happen. So they made an illogical plot detour so that it could happen. And then ignored all the other great story telling that happens in Winterfell during ADWD."

[Annara Snow]

I would also address that I have read that Sansa made the choice, to go to Winterfell and marry Ramsey. Did she really have a choice though? Lets see it's not until after she is out of the Vale that LF informers her of his plan and the marriage is already arranged. She did say she didn't want to go, but LF said avenge them. So she said ok. Now I believe this is her plan, or at least I hope it is her plan. But once at Winterfell, and LF is gone Sansa has no other options. What is she going to do say no? Then what? She can't leave, they are not going to let her leave, she is just as valuable as a hostage. They can turn her over to the crown, she can be a hostage, another woman for Ramsey to hunt. She has to yes, se has to do it just like she didn't really have a choice with Tyrion. Saying yes when yes is your only real option is not a choice.

They did make her make a choice - in episode 3, in that idiotic scene, where Sansa starts off with the logical, normal and IC reaction of saying: "No!" but then, after two minutes of LF selling her some manipulative crap about revenge, not explaining his plan, and telling her how much he cares about her, she just inexplicably changes her mind. They made sure that she makes a choice, when LF says that they will turn back and go to Vale if she says no... and then she suddenly decides that she's going to accept. If she had been forced, at least it would all look less illogical. Apparently, their idea of being "an empowered woman" is being easily manipulated to go along with anything a guy tells you to do, making idiotic and self-destructive choices, and walking into your enemies' stronghold like a lamb to the slaughter, throwing away all the safety and relative power you could have otherwise had, and marrying your family's brutal murderers.

If that's their idea of empowerment, no, thank you.

That's why it was episode 3 where I quit the show. I tried to watch episode 4, but realized I couldn't go through with it.

[Aleenys]

Well, how couldn't Sansa be happier than a pig in shit with the prospect of marrying St. Tyrion The Great, the nicest man in the world? Seriously though, the show's portrayal of Sansa's relationship with Tyrion of course wasn't very consistent with book!Sansa's relationship with Tyrion, as pointed out by Chebyshov's excellent piece about the whole butchering of Sansa's character.

Her show relationship with Tyrion was one thing among many that has made many fans suspicious of D & D. And I think this is a key problem with regard to the Sansa/Ramsay scene, which is that D & D have destroyed their own credibility with regard to Sansa's character. Had D & D been better stewards of Sansa's character then perhaps Sansa's scene with Ramsay would be a little easier to swallow.

Yup, I have read that and it is an excellent analysis of the show's portrayal vs. the books. Frankly Dumb, Dumber and Coghead seem to "love" Sansa's character as a Tyrion/Sansa shipper would love her character, as in she should have loved him and may come to love him one day because he *deserves* it!!!! Without consideration of Sansa's actual feelings. She's a beautiful, vulnerable, constantly victimized prize, that's what she is.

[Annara Snow]

Well, considering Cersei's children are Lannisters in everything but name (for the public eye, I mean), one wonders why Tywin never thought Tyrion's son with Sansa would be the same: a Stark in everything but name. I suppose he felt Sansa would never try to make her child's rights to validate or that Tyrion would keep the Northerns at bay and pleased that they have half a Stark as their leader. True is that as soon as that baby is born a boy, Tyrion could have been slaughtered by a hundred pissed off Northerns who the would have acclaimed the baby as King Stark in the North. :dunno:

It's because the Lannisters had all the power and were hoping to keep it. It's not like Tywin ever expected Sansa's and Tyrion's hypothetical child to be raised as a Stark with northern values. Of course he wouldn't.

It's not even about father and mother, it's about who has the control over the child and can raise them to feel like a part of their dynasty, to serve their interests. Walder Frey wants a grandson out of Roslin and Edmure Tully, but the child is to be a Frey, whatever his last name; he sure isn't hoping to raise his grandson to be loyal to Blackfish or the memory of Hoster and Catelyn - or Edmure, who is probably going to be killed once his usefulness is gone, just like Jaime suspects.

Robb was probably right that this is what Tywin had in store for Sansa, too. Once she bore a Lannister child, it would have been better for him to dispose of a mother who could potentially turn the child against the Lannisters, or work in other ways against them, or remarry one day and bear other grandchildren of Ned Stark who would have the advantage of not being Lannisters.

[protar]

People have mentioned an interview from D+D years ago, where they allude to having wanted to do a certain scene involving a character cut from the show for some time. Many people seem to think it refers to this. Can anyone find it?

[A Highborn Maid]

It seems that many believe we are saying something of the likes of "no, Sansa shouldn't be raped. Rape Jeyne instead!". At least in my case, it's not. Jeyne's plot from the books is one of the most horrifying things to the point I rather not even think about it. It wasn't just that she was raped: she was broken into submission to be a willing victim of her abuser and this happened because no one looked for her after her disappearance. No one cared.

And, that's the difference.

Jeyne is a nobody. No one would gain anything saving Jeyne Poole. She might be noble but all her family is probably dead. And even if they are alive, they aren't important enough. Just look how no one tried to save Lollys during the riot. Tyrion freaked out that they could have lost Sansa because SHE HAS VALUE as a political piece but was practically deaf to Lady Tanda's desperate cries for her daughter's sake because if Sansa had been hurt Jaime would had been hurt too. If anyone besides the Hound have saved Sansa and taken her to her family, he would have been given a lordship in the North. No one would have received more than a "thank you" for saving Lollys.

And that's why Jeyne is good for Theon's plot. Because while many believe her to be Arya, Theon knows the truth. The girl has no value. As soon as someone finds out, he is going to get more trouble because he lied. Yet, he's lying for the sake of an innocent girl who means little except being an innocent girl who is suffering the same or even more than he is. That's why he finally cracks: because while he feels he deserved his fate, not Jeyne. He's finally doing something good. Saving Sansa or Arya Stark is what anyone would have done, because Sansa is Sansa Stark. Jeyne Poole is just some girl. No one would lift a finger for Jeyne Poole, but Theon did. Because IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

Theon saving Sansa would mean he's doing this because he betrayed the Starks. Because he feels he needs to repay them for his sins. Theon saving a random girl means he's doing it because of his own soul, not because he owns anyone -but his own- nothing.

And, at the same time, Sansa is suffering for the sake of Theon being redeemed. So, while they are serving the other's plot, it's meaningless. This is why this plot is idiotic.

Excellent point.

People are overlooking the importance of social class. Lollys in particularly was a disturbing example of how high-ranking (albeit mentally disabled) women weren't cared about. Shae's lack of empathy..."all they did was fuck her" remains one of the most disturbing lines of the entire ASOIAF series.

That being said, I think in the case of show Sansa, a lot of it boils down to keeping cast member numbers down and lazy plotting...

[Annara Snow]

ETA: I think the writers could of made this arc a very good arc, had they not rushed it, and spent a little more time with the setup. And they could of done that, there was time to be had, but instead they wanted to put Dorne in. Look if you can erase the Iron Islands you can erase Dorne. I would much rather have a central POVs arc handled well and have it be given the time it deserves and needs rather than the steaming pile of dog shit that is Dorne. I think I get where they wanted to go with Sansa here, but rushing it hasnot been good for the arc. Put the budget in the North, put the extras in th north, Dorne is dead end, they pretty much removed what mattered from Dorne and then still tried to do it. That is clearly where they needed the time and money. Sure they got a great film location for the water gardens, but as my dad used to say, "just because you can does not mean you should." It is a waste of time and money.

Oh, and what they did with Dorne is a story in itself. Before the season started, Dumb and Dumber were saying that they had decided to include Dorne instead of the Iron Islands because they admire the Dornish values. That seemed like a perfectly reasonable decision. Of course one would love Dornish values: more gender equality than anywhere else in Westeros; women have as much chance of being rulers as men do, are rulers as often, and are not considered secondary to their brothers; common law marriages (paramours) are respected just like the official marriages; children born out of wedlock are not despised; women are not slut-shamed and are free to make their sexual choices and have sex before marriage; homosexual relations are not frowned on...

So, instead of painting Dorne as this amazing, progressive place, what do we get? "Fighting and fucking, that's all they do". Their women are "craaazy". Some B-movie shit with scantily clad, ridiculously and poorly characterized women with weapons. And everyone being obsessed with killing and mutilating innocent children for revenge. Great values.

They really should have gone with the Ironborn plot if they wanted something close to their values, the Ironborn also like rape and senseless violence. But, if they had gone with it, they would have probably had to do the plot about Balon's succession, and that would require YarAsha to have a real political role. Also, none of the main female characters would get raped. Maybe they could have cut everything except Euron and Vic's raiding, that would be right up their ally, and then have one of them rape Dany or Margaery, then they would have included the Ironborn.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

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[JonCon's Red Beard]

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[JonCon's Red Beard]

I would also address that I have read that Sansa made the choice, to go to Winterfell and marry Ramsey. Did she really have a choice though? Lets see it's not until after she is out of the Vale that LF informers her of his plan and the marriage is already arranged. She did say she didn't want to go, but LF said avenge them. So she said ok. Now I believe this is her plan, or at least I hope it is her plan. But once at Winterfell, and LF is gone Sansa has no other options. What is she going to do say no? Then what? She can't leave, they are not going to let her leave, she is just as valuable as a hostage. They can turn her over to the crown, she can be a hostage, another woman for Ramsey to hunt. She has to yes, se has to do it just like she didn't really have a choice with Tyrion. Saying yes when yes is your only real option is not a choice.

They did make her make a choice - in episode 3, in that idiotic scene, where Sansa starts off with the logical, normal and IC reaction of saying: "No!" but then, after two minutes of LF selling her some manipulative crap about revenge, not explaining his plan, and telling her how much he cares about her, she just inexplicably changes her mind. They made sure that she makes a choice, when LF says that they will turn back and go to Vale if she says no... and then she suddenly decides that she's going to accept. If she had been forced, at least it would all look less illogical. Apparently, their idea of being "an empowered woman" is being easily manipulated to go along with anything a guy tells you to do, making idiotic and self-destructive choices, and walking into your enemies' stronghold like a lamb to the slaughter, throwing away all the safety and relative power you could have otherwise had, and marrying your family's brutal murderers.

If that's their idea of empowerment, no, thank you.

That's why it was episode 3 where I quit the show. I tried to watch episode 4, but realized I couldn't go through with it.

It's not only that. Last season implied she had realised she could control LF. And it was not only the sexy outfit. She saved his neck (this time, LF had no Marillion to use as scapegoat) and let him know she could use that info at any moment. I personally didn't like the scene, I thought it was too soon for Sansa to realise she had that much power, but... in the show universe, she had it.

Yet, next season, LF was in power again. The fact he was able to convince Sansa that being sent to a monster was a good idea proved that he still controlled her, or was able to make her do his will easily. Sansa only needed to say "no. I'll make the Lords deal with the North" or "No, I'll tell the Lords what you did if you make me". and that was it. LF has no real power in the Vale, not even in the books. In the books, Sansa hasn't yet realised how much she can use information against him. In the show, she had already realised. Why make that change? Only to have her have his "Cinderella coming down the stairs" moment?

I agree. They made painfully obvious the fact Sansa chose this, which makes it worst because it borders on "victim blaming". Better blame her than Ramsay, LF or even the writers.

[Hippocras]

Huh?! Jaime did not burn Winterfell in the original draft, Tyrion did. And there's no mention of him destroying her family, either. From the little we know, it's more likely he destroyed his own to get to the throne. And Sansa does not marry Jaime (WTF?) in the original draft.

So, what on Earth are you talking about?

yes, I got a few details wrong because after all that is not the version we got. Still, the original plan was for Sansa to actually marry, for real, the enemy side with actual consequences for her and her family. This aspect has not actually played out in the books, her rather minor betrayal of Ned's plans at the beginning aside. So there is an element of Sansa actually becoming estranged from the Starks or otherwise entangled with the enemy that may still be GRRM's intention, and the books hint at it.

The point is we don't know if the books are actually headed into similar territory but more slowly.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

They really should have gone with the Ironborn plot if they wanted something close to their values, the Ironborn also like rape and senseless violence. But, if they had gone with it, they would have probably had to do the plot about Balon's succession, and that would require YarAsha to have a real political role. Also, none of the main female characters would get raped. Maybe they could have cut everything except Euron and Vic's raiding, that would be right up their ally, and then have one of them rape Dany or Margaery, then they would have included the Ironborn.

Euron and Victarion have penises. They would have made them compassionate intellectuals who get free willing sex from the women they raid.

[Khal Boner]

The point is we don't know if the books are actually headed into similar territory but more slowly.

This. I suspect D & D have accelerated her plot rather than grossly altered it. I always thought it would be Littlefinger that eventually beds her first.

[Rena Melville]

I agree. They made painfully obvious the fact Sansa chose this, which makes it worst because it borders on "victim blaming". Better blame her than Ramsay, LF or even the writers.

And we can see the reactions... Too many people deny that it was indeed a rape because of that choice...

Oh, and what they did with Dorne is a story in itself. Before the season started, Dumb and Dumber were saying that they had decided to include Dorne instead of the Iron Islands because they admire the Dornish values. That seemed like a perfectly reasonable decision. Of course one would love Dornish values: more gender equality than anywhere else in Westeros; women have as much chance of being rulers as men do, are rulers as often, and are not considered secondary to their brothers; common law marriages (paramours) are respected just like the official marriages; children born out of wedlock are not despised; women are not slut-shamed and are free to make their sexual choices and have sex before marriage; homosexual relations are not frowned on...

So, instead of painting Dorne as this amazing, progressive place, what do we get? "Fighting and fucking, that's all they do". Their women are "craaazy". Some B-movie shit with scantily clad, ridiculously and poorly characterized women with weapons. And everyone being obsessed with killing and mutilating innocent children for revenge. Great values.

They really should have gone with the Ironborn plot if they wanted something close to their values, the Ironborn also like rape and senseless violence. But, if they had gone with it, they would have probably had to do the plot about Balon's succession, and that would require YarAsha to have a real political role. Also, none of the main female characters would get raped. Maybe they could have cut everything except Euron and Vic's raiding, that would be right up their ally, and then have one of them rape Dany or Margaery, then they would have included the Ironborn.

Sad but true. :drunk:

[Chebyshov]

I agree. They made painfully obvious the fact Sansa chose this, which makes it worst because it borders on "victim blaming". Better blame her than Ramsay, LF or even the writers.

Boom.

And then the writers' defense is "but it's in the books." Which no. No it's not.

[Khal Boner]

So, instead of painting Dorne as this amazing, progressive place, what do we get? "Fighting and fucking, that's all they do". Their women are "craaazy". Some B-movie shit with scantily clad, ridiculously and poorly characterized women with weapons. And everyone being obsessed with killing and mutilating innocent children for revenge. Great values.

Bronn said that. Seems like something a sellsword would say. The sand snakes want Myrcella dead. It's in the books. Personally abusing the writers because they wrote something 'bad' happening to a favourite character is really quite juvenile.