Debating Sansa

[Le Cygne]

AngryGoTFan, he rocks:

http://angrygotfan.com/2015/05/20/elio-and-linda-vs-angrygotfan-the-great-sansa-debate/

[Le Cygne]

The upshot is that show!LF's opening diplomatic and political moves really don't make a lot of sense. Show!LF seems like a really low rent version of book!Finger whose maneuverings seem a lot more understandable. But that is what kind of happens when you try to pound Sansa's story into somewhere it doesn't really fit. Sansa's rape might be a "plot point", but it isn't a very good one when the entire political situation in Westeros has to be convoluted in order to make it happen.

It was a death march, no make that a rape march. From the first episode, all sorts of characters and storylines were twisted around just to get her to that moment, when she's raped.

That's the first half of the season. Pre-rape empowerment. Stay tuned for post-rape empowerment. (I'll take a pass on that.)

[eesiteJeff]

Well, I'd say that Sansa's suffering prior to the rape was orders of magnitude less than that of her murdered/crippled siblings and parents.

And I don't see how a Sansa who is all about the politics of the Eyrie is preferable to one who is actually fighting for her own home.

In any case, I'd agree that fans who are interested in different aspects of the story may enjoy different scenarios. Those who place primary importance on, and are primarily interested in, Sansa's personal happiness and love life, likely will prefer different scenarios from those who are more interested in the fortunes of the Starks as a whole.

[Le Cygne]

And then there are those fans who are interested in good stories. Because she can be a person and a Stark.

[Lady Sansa's Direwolf]

Just to play the devil's advocate here...

Sansa thinks she is the only Stark left alive. Keeping Winterfell in the family would be key, especially after the long road she's taken to get home. Staying at Winterfell means marriage to a man she is quickly learning is worse than Joffrey ever dreamed. To protect and honor the Stark name, she would have to be willing to bide her time, waiting for the right moment to rid herself of the Bolton problem.

True, her development could have been accomplished many other ways, but apparently D&D went to great lengths to include this. I certainly hope after all the uproar between last season's 'rape/non-rape" and Sansa's unnecessary assault, they will think twice about using this tactic again. I know women haven't always had an easy time of things throughout history, but there are many other assaults that can be worse than physical rape. A little psychological torture goes a long way.

[Le Cygne]

This is a really contrived plot. It's not to her advantage at all.

[Khal Boner]

This is a really contrived plot. It's not to her advantage at all.

You have no way of knowing if it is contrived or not until you see the way the rest of the story pans out. So far her tv story is a damn sight more interesting than her book story.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I swear I was hoping this thread would be something like "Debating Sansa: we forbid it. Stop". I'm for once ready to take each other's hands and swear to never speak of it again and just forget it. In the meantime, I'm just going to quote myself because fuck everything:

"Sansa is not a real person. Things happen to her because someone decides to. But while Martin decided to make her strong despite her shitty situations, HBO made her a victim. And a martyr. And an idiot, it seems. [...]

She decided to go along with Littlefinger plan because plot wanted her to be in that position. Because they wanted her to play Jeyne Poole’s role in books, the one who is in fact raped by Ramsay and even his dogs. Jeyne, who despite everything, told Theon to escape together. Because Jeyne, a secondary character, was a plot device for Theon’s eventual redemption. And that’s fine because secondary characters are for that.

Sansa is not a secondary character. She’s a main character. And the producers and writers wanted her to be placed in Ramsay’s bedroom to be raped. Because they knew that scene would be shocking and had no other option as they had already cut Jeyne Poole. Because they wanted Theon to be redeemed by saving her. Because HER PAIN was going to be Theon’s motor, and maybe her own. Because if this raped hadn’t happened, she wouldn’t want the Boltons killed, right?"

ETA: After some thinking, for those who say "omg, what you expect? this is got, there is going to be some violence!", I would have been ok for me if this had happened to Jeyne Poole, IF they had set up Jeyne Poole for this. And, if this was meant to happen for Theon's sake, then Jeyne is more proper because Jeyne is a nobody. Theon would be saving some girl just because he doesn't want to die as Reek. Saving Sansa would be like he wants to do it do to the Starks. Saving Jeyne is for his own. :dunno: but that's just my no so humble opinion.

[Khal Boner]

Sansa is not a secondary character. She’s a main character. And the producers and writers wanted her to be placed in Ramsay’s bedroom to be raped. Because they knew that scene would be shocking and had no other option as they had already cut Jeyne Poole. Because they wanted Theon to be redeemed by saving her. Because HER PAIN was going to be Theon’s motor, and maybe her own. Because if this raped hadn’t happened, she wouldn’t want the Boltons killed, right?"

Why does Sansa being a major character make her bullet proof? We don't know what GRRM has in store for her but the merging of her and Jeyne Poole seems logical. They only have 24 episodes left to finish this series don't forget and George hasn't even published book 6. I think a lot of main characters are going to see massive changes from the books.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

AngryGoTFan, he rocks:

http://angrygotfan.com/2015/05/20/elio-and-linda-vs-angrygotfan-the-great-sansa-debate/

I'm glad s/he's ok. I thought s/he would have died last episode.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Why does Sansa being a major character make her bullet proof? We don't know what GRRM has in store for her but the merging of her and Jeyne Poole seems logical. They only have 24 episodes left to finish this series don't forget and George hasn't even published book 6. I think a lot of main characters are going to see massive changes from the books.

It's not because she's bullet proof. It's because she has an storyline of her own, one in which she develops as a person of her own, she's not a plot device.

[Khal Boner]

It's not because she's bullet proof. It's because she has an storyline of her own, one in which she develops as a person of her own, she's not a plot device.

In the show? This is part of her storyline now. I still feel that giving her character a much more dramatic arc by putting her in Winterfell is a good move for the tv audience. It's an improvement on the books.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

AngryGoTFan, he rocks:

http://angrygotfan.com/2015/05/20/elio-and-linda-vs-angrygotfan-the-great-sansa-debate/

That's a pretty good and level-headed critique of the show. Good job.

[Florina Laufeyson]

The amount of hoops and mental gymnastics people are willing to leap through to be ok with this situation, quite frankly disgusts me. Heres a good thing to consider when you write scenes like this in general.

In the show? This is part of her storyline now. I still feel that giving her character a much more dramatic arc by putting her in Winterfell is a good move for the tv audience. It's an improvement on the books.

please. The tv audience isnt that grotesquely stupid that they would sit through three seasons of character development for a major character. Only to see her get shoved right back where she was in season 2. Plenty of non-book fans are pissed about this. Putting Sansa in Winterfell does not mean she has to be brutalized, stripped of her character development, and a tool for a male character's advancement.

[Khal Boner]

The amount of hoops and mental gymnastics people are willing to leap through to be ok with this situation, quite frankly disgusts me. Heres a good thing to consider when you write scenes like this in general.

please. The tv audience isnt that grotesquely stupid that they would sit through three seasons of character development for a major character. Only to see her get shoved right back where she was in season 2. Plenty of non-book fans are pissed about this. Putting Sansa in Winterfell does not mean she has to be brutalized, stripped of her character development, and a tool for a male character's advancement.

I think your last sentence is a bit hysterical. She hasn't developed that much as a player. Is Littlefinger's hostage basically. In fact I think the whole argument about it spoiling her plot or being poor writing is bogus. It's because it was rape. If she had been tortured or mutilated I don't think we'd be having this conversation. For me it wasn't a Red Wedding level shocker. Rather than being stripped of character development Sophie Turner will now have a whole new element of Sansa's character to explore and portray.

[RoamingRonin]

Thank you for this. When I argue that the scene happens in the books just like it happens in the show this is exactly what I mean.

AngryGOTFan proposes that the scene did not have to happen for a variety of reasons. He proposes it could have been changed in a variety of different ways. All of his suggestions applies to the books as well. Martin took the story there and so did the show.

[Gertrude]

i agree with Elio and Linda that a wedding night with Ramsey was likely to end this way. I don't agree it was a certainty. They showed Roose talking to Ramsey about curbing his excesses and then pretty much dropped it. Roose putting Ramsey on a short leash might have kept Sansa safe for at least her wedding night. Yes, it would still be unpleasant for her, but more what she thought she was agreeing to. The dread is still very real for both Sansa and Theon, but not fully realized and they can take action knowing what is to come. Not as visceral, but it gives Sansa more agency while also being a set-back or hardship or whatever you want to call it. She's in over her head and needs an escape route. The writers went out of their way to show Sansa grabbing more agency and power at the end of last season - more than she had in the books at this point. Why jeapordize this growth by allowing Sansa to be put in the same situation as she was in with Joff and highlighting her role as a victim of the monsterous men in her life?

Then again, the best argument is that she should not be in Winterfell in the first place. It involves giving Littlefinger the idiot ball to hold, but it's not like they've shyed away from that in the past.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

please. The tv audience isnt that grotesquely stupid

Here is where you fail. Or, better put, Here is where your assumption fail. It's not the audience is stupid. GOT producers think so, though.

This is the thing with GoT. People know there is a book (five, actually). And the books are complicated. And they don't want to be spoiled, which is fine. And this is something I've seen with many Unsullied. When you want to discuss a character with book information they would say "no, that's fine as it is". They believe the books are overcomplicated and they don't want to get complicated by it because it's easier to simply see the SHOCKING SCENES and believe the books are disturbing scene after disturbing scene. Because that's what HBO offers.

[Dolorous Gabe]

In the show? This is part of her storyline now. I still feel that giving her character a much more dramatic arc by putting her in Winterfell is a good move for the tv audience. It's an improvement on the books.

More drama and more shocks with less narrative sense and less thematic consideration does not equate to an improvement.

I'm sure D&D are delighted you feel that way though.

[kn1tt3r]

My oppinion on this matter is totally in line with Linda's and Elio's.

The main issue is the desicion to put Sansa to Winterfell as Ramsay's bride at all (it's certainly debatable; I for one don't actually like it, can understand why they did it). If she is in Winterfell in this very position, the only right choice is to just follow the natures of the characters and the main routes of the original story.

Ramsay is who he is - heck, he was even somewhat downplayed on the show with all his funny jokes and the less extrem treatment of Theon (even the rape scene itself was more harmless than the book counterpart). So the only way to protray this wedding night is to do what he does there. It's totally in-character, anything else would have continuation issues and would certainly be branded as "terrible writing" by many book readers as well.

Sansa is more complicated because she as a character is still "in development". Yes, she has stepped up last season and she is more of a player now, but she is still a teenage girl. So she certainly makes the brave move to accept Ramsay as her husband (including all the potential consequences), but in the very moment she of course is marginalized again (which tends to come along with getting raped). But all this basically is also totally in line with her ongoing character evolution.

I think the main problem with the scene that most people have - even if they disguise it by arguments like 'shock value', 'terrible writing'; 'it's all about Theon', 'it was unnecesary' etc. - is that this is Sansa. Who we care about. And we suffer with her. And yes, all these are valid reasons to be upset, but in the end you have to be upset about the decision to let Sansa take Jeyne's place AT ALL and not about this very scene happening. Because that's just double standards.