How do Robert, Rickard and Brandon know Rheagar has Lyanna?

[joluoto2]

There's definitely something amiss. I'm sure Rhaegar would have prefred keeping it a secret that Lyanna was with him, knowing it would create problems with his father, with the Starks and with the Martells. So something probably went wrong since Brandon found out so quickly.

[Mal Malenkirk]

There's definitely something amiss. I'm sure Rhaegar would have prefred keeping it a secret that Lyanna was with him, knowing it would create problems with his father, with the Starks and with the Martells. So something probably went wrong since Brandon found out so quickly.

I thought about that. In my mind it implies that most likely Lyanna did no plan to go with Rhaegar. Either she was well and truly kidnapped in front of witness, or he ran into her on the road and he convinced her on the spot to come willingly with him, to the likely distress of her own attendants who promptly reported to her family.

If Lyanna was aware of the plan and complicit in it execution, the secret of her wherabout and company could have been maintained for a while. While she surely had attendants, she was not a prisoner under guard. If she was part of the planning, she could have simply, for example, climbed down the window of whatever inn she was staying at during the night, join an accomplice of Rhaegar with a spare horse and she'd be league away in the morning by the time people would look for her. This would maintain confusion about her fate for a while which would have been immensely useful to Rhaegar.

But then again, perhaps Rhaegar and Lyanna did make a cunning plan for her to disappear with no one realizing what happened and it just failed miserably. It's not like Rhaegar has a great average in executing tactical plans.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

There's definitely something amiss. I'm sure Rhaegar would have prefred keeping it a secret that Lyanna was with him, knowing it would create problems with his father, with the Starks and with the Martells. So something probably went wrong since Brandon found out so quickly.

I propose a different scenario.

The initiative was on Lyanna's side. And it wasn't motivated by any romantic feelings she could've had for Rhaegar, either. She, plain and simple, did not want to marry Robert, and sought Rhaegar's aid to get out of that. Nothing went wrong then, yet: Brandon found out, because he was never supposed not to find out, probably even got a letter written by his sister. The moment things went horribly wrong was when he decided not to wait for his father, but ride to King's Landing and demand for Rhaegar to "come out and die", and Aerys went full Mad King.

Yes, Rhaegar had all reasons to expect trouble from the north and the south, but rather of diplomatic nature, not a full-blown civil war. Manageable trouble.

We actually saw a scenario like this recently, with Alys Karstark playing Lyanna's role and Jon Snow being Rhaegar (with Cregan Karstark as the unwanted fiancee). Here, too, Lord Snow rightfully predicted trouble, yet granted her sanctuary nevertheless. Even though the power of Karhold could easily destroy whatever remained of the Watch, so arguably the risk was even worse than it was for Rhaegar.

[Ser Leftwich]

Then explain why she was still on the trident.

Explain why she wasnt with her brother.

Give me a reason.

Lyanna might not have stayed with the Tully's because the Tully's were in mourning over the death of Minisa Whent. The Whent's offered to take Lyanna in place of the Tully's.

Brandon was supposed to go pick up Lyanna, but instead he went off after the duel with the Petyr to get some action with another woman, one last fling before his wedding.

[BalerionTheCat]

I thought about that. In my mind it implies that most likely Lyanna did no plan to go with Rhaegar. Either she was well and truly kidnapped in front of witness, or he ran into her on the road and he convinced her on the spot to come willingly with him, to the likely distress of her own attendants who promptly reported to her family.

That is bothering me also. I don't believe it was a true kidnapping. Whether Rhaegar sought her and convinced her to come with him (because of a prophecy about saving the world, and he knew she was the Ice); or Lyanna sought him and convinced him to take her (because she didn't want to marry Robert, or she was in touch with Bloodraven and knew of the prophecy). In any case the meeting must have been civil. Probably there was some witnesses and Brandon should not have reacted that way. He was hotheaded, but calling Rhaegar to die?

Or someone fed Brandon with wrong information? Someone working for Varys? Or Rhaegar and Lyanna wanted the events to look that way, because the prophecy requested the kingdom to be undone, the prince to be raised as a bastard, and Daenerys to be exiled?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

That is bothering me also. I don't believe it was a true kidnapping. Whether Rhaegar sought her and convinced her to come with him (because of a prophecy about saving the world, and he knew she was the Ice); or Lyanna sought him and convinced him to take her (because she didn't want to marry Robert, or she was in touch with Bloodraven and knew of the prophecy). In any case the meeting must have been civil. Probably there was some witnesses and Brandon should not have reacted that way. He was hotheaded, but calling Rhaegar to die?

Makes a lot of sense, actually. If Lyanna ran away from Robert, under Rhaegar's protection, how else do you propose to restore family honor? Kill the loverboy might seem like the only way to do that. At least for the wild wolf.

[BalerionTheCat]

Makes a lot of sense, actually. If Lyanna ran away from Robert, under Rhaegar's protection, how else do you propose to restore family honor? Kill the loverboy might seem like the only way to do that. At least for the wild wolf.

Would have sense if she was expecting Robert to come and challenge Rhaegar. Not to trigger a rebellion and to have Robert killed among a few thousand innocents. The most civil approach would be to let it be known, in no uncertain terms, that she sought Rhaegar protection. And if Robert or any Stark came to him, Rhaegar would tell them she was under his protection and he would find a suitable match for her.

As it didn't happen that way, I don't suppose it could have been her intend.

[the conquering bastard 25]

And it's clearly wrong, because an eye witness states otherwise. There are several places where the narrator of the world book lies shamelessly, didn't you notice?

Wait the world book penned by two authors that had to get approval from George himself and nothing in the book was placed in the book without his knowledge and the books wrong. Give me a ticking break and open your damn mind.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Wait the world book penned by two authors that had to get approval from George himself and nothing in the book was placed in the book without his knowledge and the books wrong. Give me a ticking break and open your damn mind.

TCB25, it's been stated, by GRRM, that the "author" of TWOIAF, Maester Whosit, does not have all the info and made a point of slanting at least some of the information he did have because he was trying to curry favor with House Lannister. The author took out very little, and only added a few things himself. It's a slanted history, as most histories are.

There WILL be misinformation in the book. It's a given. And there is no way he allowed major spoilers for how the series will go to be published in that book. It's meant to entertain, to serve as a cautionary tale regarding history, and to keep us occupied a little longer while he finishes TWoW and F&B. It's not a definitive guide to truth.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Wait the world book penned by two authors that had to get approval from George himself and nothing in the book was placed in the book without his knowledge and the books wrong. Give me a ticking break and open your damn mind.

Yes, the narrator of that book is deliberately wrong. He's not omniscient and he's not objective. Again: did you really not notice that? (And haven't you noticed narrators being biased, one way or another in every chapter of every book in the series so far?) Can you in any way reconcile Yandel's claim that Robert and Cersei loved each other very, very much with the fact that every single observer easily noticed that the opposite was true? In Yandel's story, all Cersei's children were fathered by Robert - do you think they really were? In his private conversation with his son, Tywin Lannister bluntly admits that he ordered Lorch and Clegane to murder Rhaegar's children - Yandel has a couple theories regarding those, even tries to pin them on Elia herself, but Lannister involvement he doesn't even suggest.

Did you seriously, for real, truly not notice the narrator's somewhat loose relation with the truth?

[Connartist92]

It occurs to me that all the evidence we have about Lyanna's whereabouts is postfacto. We know that Rhaegar was involved with Lyanna's disappearance because Ned found her at the tower of Joy. But how did word get out to Rickard and Brandon?

Robert clearly believed that they had gone to demand the return of Lyanna. But that does not mean that is why they went. And why go to Aerys to demand her return when Rheagar wasn't there and was apparently opposed to Aerys in some fashion.

I doubt we get the full reveal in the books till a dream of spring. And there is a very large chance that the show won't address these issues at all as they haven't been addressing the backstory very much.

I think more likely Aerys got wind that Rheagar had a third child and that Lyanna was somehow involved and was torturing Rickard and Brandon to find out where it was.

Of course, Jamie would be one of the few people who would know the whole story.

Brandon thought Rhaegar with with Aerys in King's Langing. He went there looking for Rhaegar, not the king. Once Brandon got there and realized Rhaegar wasn't, he spoke to the only Targaryen present.

[corbon]

Brandon thought Rhaegar with with Aerys in King's Langing. He went there looking for Rhaegar, not the king. Once Brandon got there and realized Rhaegar wasn't, he spoke to the only Targaryen present.

Jaime's words:

"He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die.

Doesn't sound like he spoke to anyone in particular, nor did he realise that Rhaegar wasn't there.

But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder.

He didn't get to speak to Aerys either, at least initially. He was arrested for treason first.

Wait the world book penned by two authors that had to get approval from George himself and nothing in the book was placed in the book without his knowledge and the books wrong. Give me a ticking break and open your damn mind.

Why would anyone 'give you a break' for countertextual analysis? Theories are presented here for checking and critiquing. And if the theories are sound, others can expand them and find more supporting evidence that the original theorist has missed to strengthen them.

What value to anyone does 'giving people a break' for unsound work have? It doesn't even have real value for the person getting the break, just gives them a false ego boost and encourages them to continue unsound work and practices.

Try opening your own mind fair criticism and the possibility that you've actually made some mistakes in data collection that lead to analysis based on incorrect facts.

ETA: Some links for you covering Maester Yandel and his 'reliability'

http://www.mtv.com/news/1976505/george-r-r-martin-game-of-thrones-world-of-ice-and-fire/

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/these-authors-know-the-game-of-thrones-backstory-better-than-george-r-r-martin-does/

[the conquering bastard 25]

When one stops trying to find some elaborate explanation for Rhaegar,Lyanna,Brandon and all the rest and break it down in the simplest terms things become quite clear.

The easiest and simplest explanation is the likelier of all solutions.

Before one thinks about how Brandon and Rickard knew let's back up some. Starting with the marriages. ( side note Tully's wife died in childbirth yrs before the tourney and war so no thats not why Lyanna was not at Riverrun.)

So in 277 the events of Duskendale unfold and the after math has left the king batshit crazy. He's paranoid that his hand, queen and son would have seen him dead for Rhaeger to ascend the throne. This paranoia eats at the king afterwards he doesn't leave the red keep. Yet rumors spring up that the king has finally snapped his gord the proof, besides the brutal way he dispatched houses Hollard and Dusklyn might have pointed to that. Yet given the situation I'm doubting any really thought he was wrong in his actions. No by 280 he had taken to burning his victims. At the Same time Rhae has taken to making his seats on Dragonstone.

If that wasn't enough at the same time the Lannisters,Starks,Redwynes,Tully's and Baratheons are forming marriage pacts. GRRM has stated on more than on occasion that political marriages were just that about politics. If the direwolf, lion,trout,stag, and grape had been allowed to wed they would had been one giant house with the power and might to topple the Dragon.

The Redwynes provide the ships

The Lannistes the finances to match Aerys treasury

The Starks provide the military muscle

The Tully's provide a central location and access to ships that can reach anywhere in the realm with ease. Using the rivers as highways to move supplies and armies as in the days of old.

The Barathones provide the claim to the throne

Last but not least the Arryns provide the political backing

Rhaegar not being a stupid man understood his dynasty was in trouble.

If that wasn't enough Aerys council was making noise about naming Viserys as heir and stripping Rhaegar of his birthright.

So how did Rhaegar find out about this additional obstacle to his acention? Likely when Whent went home to propose the tourney.

As mentioned house When has dual loyalty. They are related to house Tully though marriage and blood as Cat,Lysa and Edmure are all half Whent. So by rights they should have been at the tourney of Harrenhal. Yet they are also tied to the crown via Oswell Agent being a member of the KG and close ties to the crowned prince.

One should stop and ask one's self if the Tully's reached out to the Agents. My thinking is yes for no other reason than by having Harrenhal on the (rebels)side would give them complete control of the trident. Meaning they won't run into the problems that Stannis or Robb Stark faced by not having taken Harrenhal and the castle in the hands of the enemy. By agreeing to host the tourney Whent was declaring their allegiance.

Next before we even talk about Lyanna and the crowning let's looks at the lannister Twins. Has anyone ever asked themselves how a 15 yr old Cersei had the power to get Jamie into the KG? Not only that but who gave her the inspiration? Queen Rhealla is the likeliest of answers. Just as Cersei would later use Sansas feeling for Joffery to further her own ends so did the prince and queen. Cersei clearly wet with love for the prince and armed with her own prophecy of how things were to play out likely 'trying'to hasten or help her destiny along agree to help pursaude her brother to join the KG. Which was a layered plan. It drives the old lion and dragon further apart,gives Rheagar a valuable bargaining chip when making his bid for power and later to smooth Tywins ruffled feathers when Rhae weds Lyanna not Cersei. As king Rhae would have had the power to remove Jamie from the KG and garnered the good will of casterly rock, while also neutralizing a portion of the marriage block. This also in part!forces the king to be seen in public. An action that can only help Rhaegars case to the realm that his father is a threat to the stability of the realm. That he Rhaegar as a fully grown man and of his full facilities is capable of ruling in his father's name. Note viserys was not at the tourney and the world book mentioned that Viserys and his beauty could be very beguiling.

The blackfish ended the Redwynes alliance by refusing to wed. But what about the other two marriages Hosteer Tully proposed? Bracken and Frey. Both houses that have in the past sided with the Blackfyres not the Targs. Again this lends credence that some of the families of this alliance were likely going to press the baratheon claim.(if the story is a deconstruction of the war of the roses Steffron Baratheon being Richard of York makes sense. As the Baratheon claim is the Mortimer claim, Robert used his Targaryen grandmothers claim to solidify his hold/claim upon the throne. Just as Edward of York and Richard of York before him did. The Mortimer claim being the entire bases for the war of the Rose)

Then let's think about this how/why did Rhaegar have a crown of blue winter roses on stand by if he didn't a) intend to always win and b) always intend to crown Lyanna Stark? We find out in Neds POV in the crypts that Lyanna was fond of flowers. We later learn that her favorite is the winter rose. Simplest and easiest answer? He found out everything he could about the various Stark children. Why because information was and is power. Yet how did he gather this said information? Well simplest answer Maester Aemon whom got the info from Master Walys. Also Aemon is on the wall I'm sure at least some details about the head family of the north reached his ears and he passed the info on to Rhaegar. We know from Sam's POV that Aemon does mention writing letters to the prince so this isn't out of the realm of being feasible.

By using reverse engineering and asking myself why character a did this given the info given a lot of the answer surrounding Harrenhal became quite clear.

[the conquering bastard 25]

When one stops trying to find some elaborate explanation for Rhaegar,Lyanna,Brandon and all the rest and break it down in the simplest terms things become quite clear.

The easiest and simplest explanation is the likelier of all solutions.

Before one thinks about how Brandon and Rickard knew let's back up some. Starting with the marriages. ( side note Tully's wife died in childbirth yrs before the tourney and war so no thats not why Lyanna was not at Riverrun.)

So in 277 the events of Duskendale unfold and the after math has left the king batshit crazy. He's paranoid that his hand, queen and son would have seen him dead for Rhaeger to ascend the throne. This paranoia eats at the king afterwards he doesn't leave the red keep. Yet rumors spring up that the king has finally snapped his gord the proof, besides the brutal way he dispatched houses Hollard and Dusklyn might have pointed to that. Yet given the situation I'm doubting any really thought he was wrong in his actions. No by 280 he had taken to burning his victims. At the Same time Rhae has taken to making his seats on Dragonstone.

If that wasn't enough at the same time the Lannisters,Starks,Redwynes,Tully's and Baratheons are forming marriage pacts. GRRM has stated on more than on occasion that political marriages were just that about politics. If the direwolf, lion,trout,stag, and grape had been allowed to wed they would had been one giant house with the power and might to topple the Dragon.

The Redwynes provide the ships

The Lannistes the finances to match Aerys treasury

The Starks provide the military muscle

The Tully's provide a central location and access to ships that can reach anywhere in the realm with ease. Using the rivers as highways to move supplies and armies as in the days of old.

The Barathones provide the claim to the throne

Last but not least the Arryns provide the political backing

Rhaegar not being a stupid man understood his dynasty was in trouble.

If that wasn't enough Aerys council was making noise about naming Viserys as heir and stripping Rhaegar of his birthright.

So how did Rhaegar find out about this additional obstacle to his acention? Likely when Whent went home to propose the tourney.

As mentioned house When has dual loyalty. They are related to house Tully though marriage and blood as Cat,Lysa and Edmure are all half Whent. So by rights they should have been at the tourney of Harrenhal. Yet they are also tied to the crown via Oswell Agent being a member of the KG and close ties to the crowned prince.

One should stop and ask one's self if the Tully's reached out to the Agents. My thinking is yes for no other reason than by having Harrenhal on the (rebels)side would give them complete control of the trident. Meaning they won't run into the problems that Stannis or Robb Stark faced by not having taken Harrenhal and the castle in the hands of the enemy. By agreeing to host the tourney Whent was declaring their allegiance.

Next before we even talk about Lyanna and the crowning let's looks at the lannister Twins. Has anyone ever asked themselves how a 15 yr old Cersei had the power to get Jamie into the KG? Not only that but who gave her the inspiration? Queen Rhealla is the likeliest of answers. Just as Cersei would later use Sansas feeling for Joffery to further her own ends so did the prince and queen. Cersei clearly wet with love for the prince and armed with her own prophecy of how things were to play out likely 'trying'to hasten or help her destiny along agree to help pursaude her brother to join the KG. Which was a layered plan. It drives the old lion and dragon further apart,gives Rheagar a valuable bargaining chip when making his bid for power and later to smooth Tywins ruffled feathers when Rhae weds Lyanna not Cersei. As king Rhae would have had the power to remove Jamie from the KG and garnered the good will of casterly rock, while also neutralizing a portion of the marriage block. This also in part!forces the king to be seen in public. An action that can only help Rhaegars case to the realm that his father is a threat to the stability of the realm. That he Rhaegar as a fully grown man and of his full facilities is capable of ruling in his father's name. Note viserys was not at the tourney and the world book mentioned that Viserys and his beauty could be very beguiling.

The blackfish ended the Redwynes alliance by refusing to wed. But what about the other two marriages Hosteer Tully proposed? Bracken and Frey. Both houses that have in the past sided with the Blackfyres not the Targs. Again this lends credence that some of the families of this alliance were likely going to press the baratheon claim.(if the story is a deconstruction of the war of the roses Steffron Baratheon being Richard of York makes sense. As the Baratheon claim is the Mortimer claim, Robert used his Targaryen grandmothers claim to solidify his hold/claim upon the throne. Just as Edward of York and Richard of York before him did. The Mortimer claim being the entire bases for the war of the Rose)

Then let's think about this how/why did Rhaegar have a crown of blue winter roses on stand by if he didn't a) intend to always win and b) always intend to crown Lyanna Stark? We find out in Neds POV in the crypts that Lyanna was fond of flowers. We later learn that her favorite is the winter rose. Simplest and easiest answer? He found out everything he could about the various Stark children. Why because information was and is power. Yet how did he gather this said information? Well simplest answer Maester Aemon whom got the info from Master Walys. Also Aemon is on the wall I'm sure at least some details about the head family of the north reached his ears and he passed the info on to Rhaegar. We know from Sam's POV that Aemon does mention writing letters to the prince so this isn't out of the realm of being feasible.

By using reverse engineering and asking myself why character a did this given the info given a lot of the answer surrounding Harrenhal became quite clear.

[the conquering bastard 25]

But to discount the info as completely false is presumptuous at best.

The official story one that made it all the way to the citadel and likely the lords and commons as its a tell repeated in Aerys section and the northern section that the Starks demanded justice. This is PR people, a spin of the truth to motivate the lords to sway one way over another. Medieval rulers used public option and progranda moves all the time. Think the Tudors and the Tudor Rose. Think Shakespeare and his historical plays of the varies reign touched by the war of the rose. Classic PR and a lot of Pop cultures understanding of the War stems from Shakespeare whose writings were meant to flatter the Tudors

While the true st

[corbon]

But to discount the info as completely false is presumptuous at best.

The official story one that made it all the way to the citadel and likely the lords and commons as its a tell repeated in Aerys section and the northern section that the Starks demanded justice. This is PR people, a spin of the truth to motivate the lords to sway one way over another. Medieval rulers used public option and progranda moves all the time. Think the Tudors and the Tudor Rose. Think Shakespeare and his historical plays of the varies reign touched by the war of the rose. Classic PR and a lot of Pop cultures understanding of the War stems from Shakespeare whose writings were meant to flatter the Tudors

While the true st

We have two people who were very highly placed on either side sitting together discussing it. One of them was actually there in KL. They have no reason to tell lies and they are remembering the story from two perspectives, filling in gaps for each other.

Their stories match the characterizations we've been given by GRRM of the key people - Brandon and Aerys, and fit with other data we have.

On the other hand we have Maester Yandel, whom both GRRm and the WoIaF's authors Ran and Elia make a point of saying is unreliable and completely biased, especially about the most recent history.

I absolutely believe Jaime and Catelyns discussion is infinitely more reliable that Maester Yandel's

And of course Maester Yandel writes the same propaganda in both the Taragaryen and Stark sections. Its the same writer writing for the same audience, he's not going to change anything.

When one stops trying to find some elaborate explanation for Rhaegar,Lyanna,Brandon and all the rest and break it down in the simplest terms things become quite clear.

The easiest and simplest explanation is the likelier of all solutions.

Umm, yes. Mostly.

Before one thinks about how Brandon and Rickard knew let's back up some. Starting with the marriages. ( side note Tully's wife died in childbirth yrs before the tourney and war so no thats not why Lyanna was not at Riverrun.)

...

Well, that was complex and convoluted. Not necessarily wrong, life is complex and convoluted sometimes and GRRM writes very close to life.

We don't know if Rickard knew anything at all about Lyanna. He is oddly silent on her in fact. In fact, when you get down to it, although it seems pretty obvious Brandon is angry at Rhaegar because of Lyanna, we don't even know that for sure. Brandon didn't mention her at all that we know of.

Nice simple explanation? Here you go.

1. Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped together for any of many and varied reasons. Or it was a kidnapping. Or a feigned kidnapping. Pretty much anything works here.

2. Brandon found out something, what it was and true or false we don't know. He reacted badly. Maybe in concern for Lyanna (it doesn't seem so, but could be), maybe in anger at treatment of House Stark honour, maybe politics, many options are possible here.

3. Brandon rode into the Red Keep and shouted out for Rhaegar to come out and die. Jaime was there, thats what he says and it fits with the characterisation of Brandon as well as the reactions and other data we have. That happens to be Treason, punishable by death.

4. Aerys orders Brandon's and his companions arrested (rightfully) and summons their fathers to answer for their crimes (all are young men, none yet hold titles I think). Thats what Jaime says and it fits.

5. After a series of (sham?) trials nearly all of the companions and father are executed for Treason. Rickard demands trial by combat and Aerys cheats with fire. Rickard and Brandon die. Thats what Jaime says, he was definitely an eyewitness and has no reason to lie to Catelyn. Catelyn thought there were no trials. She wasn't there.

6. Aerys, because he's excessivly paranoid by now, order Ned and Robert's heads as well. That makes a kind of paranoid sense and fits the progression and the data we have from elsewhere.

7. Jon Arryn says no heads and rebels, Ned and Robert join him, liking their heads on their shoulders. thats what we are told by independents and it fits.

Its the simplest explanation and fits the facts we have been given in the main series by people who have no reason to lie and fairly good sources for their data.

Then let's think about this how/why did Rhaegar have a crown of blue winter roses on stand by if he didn't a) intend to always win and B) always intend to crown Lyanna Stark? We find out in Neds POV in the crypts that Lyanna was fond of flowers. We later learn that her favorite is the winter rose. Simplest and easiest answer? He found out everything he could about the various Stark children. Why because information was and is power. Yet how did he gather this said information? Well simplest answer Maester Aemon whom got the info from Master Walys. Also Aemon is on the wall I'm sure at least some details about the head family of the north reached his ears and he passed the info on to Rhaegar. We know from Sam's POV that Aemon does mention writing letters to the prince so this isn't out of the realm of being feasible.

By using reverse engineering and asking myself why character a did this given the info given a lot of the answer surrounding Harrenhal became quite clear.

Simplest and easiest? Sheesh!

Rhaegar didn't have a crown of blue winter roses on standby. Lord Whent did. Its his tourney, and his prize. Blue roses are very rare, so make the perfect crown for any QoLaB, not just Lyanna.

Its only GRRM's literary purposes that have the blue roses associated particalarly with Lyanna. In world, at Harrenhal, thats entirely an accident. In GRRMs literature its no accident of course.

Incidentally, what is your evidence that Aerys was burning people by 280? The first evidence (that is not Yandel's biased account) we have of him burning someone is Lord Chelstead, only a few weeks before the Sack (well, theres Rickard I guess).

[the conquering bastard 25]

Okay before this conversation goes any further I like to explain a couple of things about myself. Not because I would like to brag or boast but I would like to state simple facts. First is that I am looking at Harrenhal as the spark the eventual led to Roberts Rebellion. Yet the seeds of Harrenhal and the fall out were sewn much further in the past than Harrenhal. Those seeds were sewn during Aegon V's lifetime starting with his sons wedding for love instead of politics.

Second that the events that happened at Harrenhal were orchastrated by those unhappy with the kings rule but also out of self preservation of the prince's part. There were those on the kings council that wanted to remove Rheagar as the crown prince and then set up his brother as the kings heir. After Viserys was named heir it's a short step from ridding the realm of the mad king. Why do you think after all the protest and extremes that his council went through to not have the tourney was the King forced to attend the tourney? Because the realm needed to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Aerys was unable to rule. When i was reading the world book i was looking just as much at what was being written as what was being unsaid because of who would read the book and whom the book was suppose to flatter. All history books are such, they are a tell of what those in power wanted to remember and deemed important to record, while other unimportant details are left by the waste side but only though piecing together all the moving parts does the whole unbiased untold story become clear.

I was having this conversation with someone else in another thread about the The war of the Rose and how if this is George's deconstructed story of those events and other stories woven into the tapestry then one must understand the events that lead up to the war of the roses, which did not begin in Henry VI's life time. Those seeds were sewn back in the reign of Richard II and Henry IV. While I won't bore you with the details but I will say this that If Henry IV hadn't usurped the throne of England, the seeds and political ramifications that lay in that one event. The whole case of the war lay in the law and succession claims. Richard of York the father not the son was through blood claims was descent from both the 3 and 5 son of Edward III. While Henry Bolingbroke and the House of Lancaster were only descent from John Gaunt the fourth son of Edward. The problem arose when Henry VI was unable because of misrule, age and a number of other factors to hold onto his french territories and was undermining the political structure of England, not to mention Richard was being excluded from power by those closest to Henry VI. Sound familiar? Steffron Baratheon for all of the close ties to Aerys was being forced from the seat of power by another of their child hood friends Tywin Lannister. Stannis mentions that he and Robert were accompanied their father to court on an occation when they were both quite young. Yet I ask why was Steffron being called to court at all? By right of blood he should have had a seat of on the council as the kings first cousin and given the parring of the royal tree because of Summerhall Aerys had need of all the blood of the dragon he could get. He had his Velyron cousin on the council so why not Steffron? Which leads to an interesting thought or headway at least.

How is it that Steffron was unable to get a bride for Rhaegar out of Old Volantis. Not to mention isn't curious that at the same time that Steffron was in Volantis so was the Red Viper. I would also like to point out that how its it that Martell can get a woman of the old blood of Valyria to become his mistress and bear his bastard but Steffron is unable to get one of the noble blood of Valyria to become the future queen of Westeros. Yet when one thinks about Tywin and his treatment of the Princess of Dorne in regards to his wifes wedding proposals and then the snub of offering Tyrion... Well it makes it interesting that Oybren's mistress might have had a hand in that. As well as Doran Martell's own wife we don't know what type of contacts she might have in the east.

It helps I think to see history and these books as a moving chess game. The key to understanding how things operated in history and with the books its key to as Why. In the example given I have demostrated how Rheagar and Elia of Dorne's marriage contract came about. I don't think any of the parties involved thought that Elia was likely to survive childbirth so in a sense they have just removed an obstucle if they chose to seize the throne. Really think of the implications of saddling Rheagar the last dragon with a sick and weak wife one that none thought would likely have a child let alone survive the ordeal of childbirth. Kaven mentions in his POV that Cersei could have provided the heirs that the prince so wanted. Even in how the events play at Harrenhal with Rheagar making a point of not having his daughter at the tourney nor having Viserys there was making a statement to the realm. Its also important to realize that when dealing with matters such as these that what is done in public is a statement. Perception is Reality and sometimes what people see is greater and more important than what is. Impression matter, which is why Sansa and her understanding of courtsey is so imporant. In the game of intrigue what is said is just as important as what isn't said and the impression that one can covey with a look, a gesture. Power isn't just about its trapping but those trappings manifest or solidify in ones mind that power does indeed flow from there.

We have two people who were very highly placed on either side sitting together discussing it. One of them was actually there in KL. They have no reason to tell lies and they are remembering the story from two perspectives, filling in gaps for each other.

Their stories match the characterizations we've been given by GRRM of the key people - Brandon and Aerys, and fit with other data we have.

On the other hand we have Maester Yandel, whom both GRRm and the WoIaF's authors Ran and Elia make a point of saying is unreliable and completely biased, especially about the most recent history.

I absolutely believe Jaime and Catelyns discussion is infinitely more reliable that Maester Yandel's

And of course Maester Yandel writes the same propaganda in both the Taragaryen and Stark sections. Its the same writer writing for the same audience, he's not going to change anything.

I never said that Jamie lied. I am saying that there are two sides to every story and then there is the truth. That Jamie has or told Cat one side of the story. Yet what about what the people at large were told is what was written in the book. That the lords and the ladies would have to be told something. I want you to go back and think about the men that were in Brandons charge when he was arrested. Blackwood, Arryn, Glover, Mallister and Royce. Each of those names carries mega weight in the realm, as the heirs of each of those houses if their fathers had to swear to oh I don't know depose Aerys and installing Rheagar as heir apparent as well as Regent well its brilliant. The fathers would of course have to come and stand for their sons treason, just like Tywin Lannister would have to make an appearence at court to get Jamie out of the KG in exchange for Tywins oath of loyalty from Aerys to Rheagar. The Reach might need some convincing but a marriage between Willas Tyrell and Rheanys Targaryen would go along way. The Reach at this time for this next generation is like one huge house, they extremely well interwoven with each other. What effects one house in the Reach affects them all. Marriage between not the heir to the throne but still a royal match would go along way to easing the sins of the past. While Eila of Dorne was pregnant at the Tourney of Harrenhall(it's the only way the time like would or could work), Lastly they would come if for no other reasons than to assure Elia and Aegon of their rights in light of Rheagars new marriage to Lyanna Stark.

Umm, yes. Mostly.
So why can't it be that easy in this case is because like most you have built up in your mind that George is some man that is smashing Fantasy archtypes? WHen that's not really the case. Take Ned Stark's death, how is that any different from Harry Potters Parents dying or all of the people that stood by to protect Harry until it was time for him to face Voldmort, or Luke Skywalker losing his uncle that raised him and forces him to face his destiny? is the difference because we have been inside Ned's head and view him as a hero? But in most fantasy the old guard those that stood before are always stripped away leaving those that come after to have to look after themselves in the world. That those that protect the heros and even the villians have to be gone for them to come into themselves. Even in the Godfather, Vito had to die so that Micheal could test his mantle and prove he was his fathers heir, not Sonny and certainly not Fredo. In that fashion good ole George is just following a tried and true formula. The difference I think is that none could believe that a Hero in fantasy one that is and was as noble as Ned Stark could be done in by the evil Prince Joffery. But also George is trying to stay as close to real life as possible.

Well, that was complex and convoluted. Not necessarily wrong, life is complex and convoluted sometimes and GRRM writes very close to life.

We don't know if Rickard knew anything at all about Lyanna. He is oddly silent on her in fact. In fact, when you get down to it, although it seems pretty obvious Brandon is angry at Rhaegar because of Lyanna, we don't even know that for sure. Brandon didn't mention her at all that we know of.

While the world book is by no means correct source its important to consider what the author deemed important to highlight but also what the author was trying to draw the readers attention away from. ITs almost like at times that author of the world book was hanging a huge neon sign about what we the read should discount or take as nosense which in my world means there is something that needs to be explored.

While I think that Brandons reaction at the Tourney was real. I don't think that he or any of the stark were in on the crowning plot, that doesnt mean that they had no hand in the kidnapping ploy. IF for no other reason do i believe this to be because Lyanna Stark was left on the Trident in the hands of families loyal to the Dragon.

IT wouldn't be out of character for Brandon Stark to race to the Capital, nor for him to display his wolf temperment. He was on record to being opposed to Rheagar and his intentions towards Lyanna at Harrenhall the world would have no reason to believe his views had changed.

But then ask yourself what would make Brandon believe that Rheagar was even in the Capital? The Crown Prince upon his 18 birthday had take possesion of Dragonstone would have no need of his fathers protection. He's got an entire Island to hide Lyanna on and the Starks without a fleet!! So does it not stand to reason that the place that both the Prince and Brandon both wanted to be in the Capital where the King is and would never see Brandon coming to court to demand justice as the signal for the grand council.

Nice simple explanation? Here you go.
1. Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped together for any of many and varied reasons. Or it was a kidnapping. Or a feigned kidnapping. Pretty much anything works here. It's not as simple as all that and you know it. Their marriage would have forestalled the Baratheons from ascending or making a play for the throne. The Crown PRince was trying to strip him of his friends and make them his friends.

2. Brandon found out something, what it was and true or false we don't know. He reacted badly. Maybe in concern for Lyanna (it doesn't seem so, but could be), maybe in anger at treatment of House Stark honour, maybe politics, many options are possible here. Or his reaction was just the one that was needed to get into the capital to pull a trojan horse grand council.
3. Brandon rode into the Red Keep and shouted out for Rhaegar to come out and die. Jaime was there, thats what he says and it fits with the characterisation of Brandon as well as the reactions and other data we have. That happens to be Treason, punishable by death.
4. Aerys orders Brandon's and his companions arrested (rightfully) and summons their fathers to answer for their crimes (all are young men, none yet hold titles I think). Thats what Jaime says and it fits.

5. After a series of (sham?) trials nearly all of the companions and father are executed for Treason. Rickard demands trial by combat and Aerys cheats with fire. Rickard and Brandon die. Thats what Jaime says, he was definitely an eyewitness and has no reason to lie to Catelyn. Catelyn thought there were no trials. She wasn't there. Yet if Aerys found out that those lords were there to help depose him makes sense that he would want their heads.

6. Aerys, because he's excessivly paranoid by now, order Ned and Robert's heads as well. That makes a kind of paranoid sense and fits the progression and the data we have from elsewhere.

7. Jon Arryn says no heads and rebels, Ned and Robert join him, liking their heads on their shoulders. thats what we are told by independents and it fits.

Its the simplest explanation and fits the facts we have been given in the main series by people who have no reason to lie and fairly good sources for their data.

Simplest and easiest? Sheesh!

Rhaegar didn't have a crown of blue winter roses on standby. Lord Whent did. Its his tourney, and his prize. Blue roses are very rare, so make the perfect crown for any QoLaB, not just Lyanna.
Its only GRRM's literary purposes that have the blue roses associated particalarly with Lyanna. In world, at Harrenhal, thats entirely an accident. In GRRMs literature its no accident of course.

Incidentally, what is your evidence that Aerys was burning people by 280? The first evidence (that is not Yandel's biased account) we have of him burning someone is Lord Chelstead, only a few weeks before the Sack (well, theres Rickard I guess). He did make Fire his houses Champion. So come on is it a stretch to think that he had taken to killing his victims with fire. Then what about what Jaime said about Aerys and his procivities to rape his wife after a buring? OR