R+L=J v.143

[BearQueen87]

Beautiful answer. Citation?

I'm confused. What are you asking me for? Citation that the crown prince and a pregnant high born lady wouldn't be living alone in a run down tower in the mountains?

[moodious]

R+L=D

[Sly Wren]

Timeline. Well...I'll just quote KingMonkey:

GRRM + Numbers = nope nope nope.

As for servants coming to the TOJ and ravens still being a possibility---yes, absolutely. But a far less possibility than if they were at Starfall, especially if those supplies and servants didn't know where they were going originally. Also, Rhaegar named the TOJ so I'm not sure if the servants (if they were literate) could say where exactly they were? "Some run down tower in Dorne!" They can't say "we are in the TOJ" because it wasn't known by that name until Rhaegar named it, after taking Lyanna.

Granted--more likely betrayed if actually at Starfall, but not by too much. They're in the middle of nowhere. Servants would have to go back and forth with supplies. Sending directions via raven still would betray location.

And back to the tower--pulled down by hand. Why on earth (okay, planetos) stay there long term? If risking supplies and servants, just give it up and go to Starfall. Or anywhere else with supplies and clean linen.

Agree on numbers and timeline--but still: fever dream. Ned's associating things. The misery of his loss now that he's back in a mess with Robert. The pointless loss of life--the Kingsguard, Lyanna, his men outside Baelish's--this is not just timeline info (though it gives some), this is Ned's psyche, too. Mixed in with fever. Not sure it works to take it literally timeline wise.

[RumHam]

Edit: And did Eddard and Howland then murder these retainers?

Wow, imagine Ned deciding the secret/promise was that important. Now that would weigh on him a lot more than just lying to his best friend and wife. I think I like this idea.

[BearQueen87]

R+L=D

That would indeed be a remarkable feat given that Dany was born roughly nine months after the sack of KL which was about two weeks after Rhaegar died on the Trident.

[Voice]

I'm confused. What are you asking me for? Citation that the crown prince and a pregnant high born lady wouldn't be living alone in a run down tower in the mountains?

I'm asking for any citation that might support this:

The servants R and L and the 3KG brought up from Starfall (or another close location) to help out. Because the crown prince, a highborn lady, and 2 or 3 KG aren't going to be living on their own, especially with Lyanna near giving birth and thus in need of a midwife and other servants.

And, did Eddard Stark and Howland Reed kill these servants? Because according to the text and the recent SSM, only Ned and Howl walked away from the tower of joy...

[BearQueen87]

And back to the tower--pulled down by hand. Why on earth (okay, planetos) stay there long term? If risking supplies and servants, just give it up and go to Starfall. Or anywhere else with supplies and clean linen.

I think it was a very difficult decision for the KG: stay or go, move Lyanna and risk her losing the babe, or stay and risk being round/her dying of infection/bad labor. I don't think it was an easy decision at all, and I would be willing to be that it was still being hashed out as Ned and co rode up to the ToJ.

[Voice]

Wow, imagine Ned deciding the secret/promise was that important. Now that would weigh on him a lot more than just lying to his best friend and wife. I think I like this idea.

You're starting to think like a Heretic ;)

It would follow quite well with Ned apparently losing his mind and tearing down the tower for no apparent reason. Otherwise, I see no possible way to reconcile the quote from Eddard I with the notion Lyanna was present at the tower Ned pulled down.

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

[BearQueen87]

I'm asking for any citation that might support this:

And, did Eddard Stark and Howland Reed kill these servants? Because according to the text and the recent SSM, only Ned and Howl walked away from the tower of joy...

Okay then.

As you pointed out, THEY found Ned Stark. Howland Reed does not a "they" make. Thus, there is at least one other person at the ToJ after the battle. How do we know THEY (the collective whole) were still at the ToJ as Ned embraced his dying sister? The app:

"At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne, at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy"

How do we know the app is canon and approved by GRRM: well, you could go back a page to where I cited it for Frey Family Reunion, but I'll just do it again

So the official George and his publisher approved World of Ice and Fire app is available. I can attest to the fact that he personally worked on this project, because I sat and took notes as we went over hundreds of questions on random Ice and Fire arcana. No, it didn't delay Winds of Winter. I made him do it while he ate lunch. Yes, he complains when I make him work during lunch.

X

Ok, so we are at the ToJ with a dying Lyanna (app confirmation + canon of app confirmation); there is a "they" = / = Howland Reed by his lonesome so we need more than one person. The Three KG are dead dead dead. So what do we know about Lyanna and Rhaegar? Well we know she was pregnant (if you want me to cite proof of that, then you might be in the wrong thread). We know that pregnancy in Westeros is hard. We know that midwives are used by high born ladies to help bring their children into the world (cf: any time pregnancy is discussed in the series...also, logic). Therefore the most sound conclusion is that there must have been, at minimum, a midwife at the ToJ. Going further we would expect that the Prince and his Lady would need help in the day to day living, which for them would mean cooking, cleaning,ect. They could do it themselves with the help of the 2 KG--but that seems like a bit of a stretch since 1) high borns don't do that stuff on a regular basis (cf: the series in which we are presented with nothing but highborns NOT doing that) and 2) the KG need to be on guard duty not out washing the linens. Therefore, logic dictates that there was at least one servant in addition to the midwife.

[Sly Wren]

I think it was a very difficult decision for the KG: stay or go, move Lyanna and risk her losing the babe, or stay and risk being round/her dying of infection/bad labor. I don't think it was an easy decision at all, and I would be willing to be that it was still being hashed out as Ned and co rode up to the ToJ.

Maybe--but I'd think they might have brought it up to Ned--"table the fight. The sister you've been fighting for is in dire straights. We can work this out later"--something.

The conversation is entirely about not being able to kill the Usurper and not being able to protect Aerys. How they are true vs. the false Jaime. Lyanna doesn't merit a mention.

Can't quite buy this scenario--still seems they would have moved much, much earlier.

[BearQueen87]

Maybe--but I'd think they might have brought it up to Ned--"table the fight. The sister you've been fighting for is in dire straights. We can work this out later"--something.

The conversation is entirely about not being able to kill the Usurper and not being able to protect Aerys. How they are true vs. the false Jaime. Lyanna doesn't merit a mention.

Can't quite buy this scenario--still seems they would have moved much, much earlier.

The KG have no reason to trust Ned Stark--Lyanna being his sister doesn't matter. He's the BFF of the New King (whom the 3 KG have declared to be the Usurper). What Ned "knows" in the minds of the 3KG as he comes riding up to the tower is that his sister have been kidnapped and raped a thousand times, his father and brother killed, and that he war fought to overthrow the dynasty that the 3KG were sworn to protect. They aren't going to try and talk to him about Lyanna being pregnant (not exactly a good place to start since the 3KG would believe Ned to think that pregnancy = rape by Rhaegar) and that she went willing (if indeed she did) and was married to Rhaegar (if she was).

For the sake of record, I do believe 1) that L and R were married 2) they were in love and 3) Ned knew at least the former but not necessarily #2 but the KG have no reason to believe that Ned would know any of these realities.

[Sly Wren]

The KG have no reason to trust Ned Stark--Lyanna being his sister doesn't matter. He's the BFF of the New King (whom the 3 KG have declared to be the Usurper). What Ned "knows" in the minds of the 3KG as he comes riding up to the tower is that his sister have been kidnapped and raped a thousand times, his father and brother killed, and that he war fought to overthrow the dynasty that the 3KG were sworn to protect. They aren't going to try and talk to him about Lyanna being pregnant (not exactly a good place to start since the 3KG would believe Ned to think that pregnancy = rape by Rhaegar) and that she went willing (if indeed she did) and was married to Rhaegar (if she was).

For the sake of record, I do believe 1) that L and R were married 2) they were in love and 3) Ned knew at least the former but not necessarily #2 but the KG have no reason to believe that Ned would know any of these realities.

No problem at all with second paragraph. No problem at all with R+L=J.

Struggling to understand the focus on a fever dream as literal timeline vs. grouped events.

As for not trusting Ned--agreed. But they ONLY talk of vengeance. Not of protecting their potential baby King. Don't even mention Rhaegar--only anger at not killing Usurper and not saving Aerys. They DO state they are true Kingsguard--so why avoid bringing up the baby? They know they are in for a fight. Are they trying not to make Ned angrier?

And if Ned killed all the attendants, seems like the sort of thing that might make an appearance in this dream filled with images of things he feels guilt regret about. Maybe.

Or, are these two events--fight at TOJ, finding Lyanna elsewhere--related, very closely related. Tied in fever dream, not logic. Not literal timeline.

[Voice]

Yup

[BearQueen87]

No problem at all with second paragraph. No problem at all with R+L=J.

Struggling to understand the focus on a fever dream as literal timeline vs. grouped events.

As for not trusting Ned--agreed. But they ONLY talk of vengeance. Not of protecting their potential baby King. Don't even mention Rhaegar--only anger at not killing Usurper and not saving Aerys. They DO state they are true Kingsguard--so why avoid bringing up the baby? They know they are in for a fight. Are they trying not to make Ned angrier?

And if Ned killed all the attendants, seems like the sort of thing that might make an appearance in this dream filled with images of things he feels guilt regret about. Maybe.

Or, are these two events--fight at TOJ, finding Lyanna elsewhere--related, very closely related. Tied in fever dream, not logic. Not literal timeline.

I don't know that the fever dream is a literal timeline and not exactly how the conversation--if there was a conversation--between the 3KG and Ned went down. It's highly ritualized (if I can find King Monkey's essay on this I'll link it...) and is more Ned's subconscious casting it in a way that makes sense to him given his own hindsight.

I think I'm struggling to see what you're asking? Or what you're arguing? Can you clarify?

ETA: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/128945-eddard-in-wonderland/

KingMonkey's essay with some thoughts on the TOJ.

[Sly Wren]

I don't know that the fever dream is a literal timeline and not exactly how the conversation--if there was a conversation--between the 3KG and Ned went down. It's highly ritualized (if I can find King Monkey's essay on this I'll link it...) and is more Ned's subconscious casting it in a way that makes sense to him given his own hindsight.

I think I'm struggling to see what you're asking? Or what you're arguing? Can you clarify?

ETA: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/128945-eddard-in-wonderland/

KingMonkey's essay with some thoughts on the TOJ.

Am arguing that the TOJ fight may have happened first. Then Ned and Howland bury their dead companions and the Kingsguard. Then ride to Starfall with Dawn where Lyanna and Jon are.

Gets around the messiness of supplies and murder of attendants and "pull-down-by-handable" tower and all the rest of it.

I read the essay you linked--FULLY agree it answers a lot about the dream-like quality--wraiths, rose petals, all of that.

But don't think the ritual statements of the fight need to be dream-like--they ARE starting a fight to the death. The Kingsguard are clearly not happy with not being able to kill Usurper or protect Aerys from the false brother. Could easily be a literal conversation.

And the Kingsguard don't say anything about Lyanna or baby. Ned has no memory of horrible murders of servants.

So, what if the two events are separate? TOJ fight. Then Starfall to Jon and Lyanna.

Edited to excise unclear statements. Hopefully that does it.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

It's been a while since I kicked it in rlj land. Skimming through and I noticed that (this is not a new thing, just have not been here lately) a lot of inquiries are directed to other peoples posts (who's down with O P P?) or the app. Why not reference A Song of Ice and Fire? It's pretty good material.

If you study the text of ASOIAF, you can see that there is nothing even hinting at Lyanna, Rhaegar, Kingsguard, servants, messengers etc. shacked up in the mountains, living their lives in secret. With the little information that is available, it's possible but nowhere near concrete or canon.

[Bael's Bastard]

Lyanna and Jon at Starfall doesn't get around anything, just introduces a whole castle full of witnesses where a small secretive group is indicated. What, you think Ned murdered a castle full of noble witnesses?

[Sly Wren]

Lyanna and Jon at Starfall doesn't get around anything, just introduces a whole castle full of witnesses where a small secretive group is indicated. What, you think Ned murdered a castle full of noble witnesses?

No--I don't think he murdered anyone. Killed the Kingsguard, but that was a straightforward fight.

Am assuming the Daynes had no desire to keep up the fight. Would want to keep it all secret. Happy to get Dawn back (I lifted this idea from WhitestarkWolf on another thread)--but still, something is horrible enough to potentially drive Ashara's suicide. Am assuming that if the Daynes were willing to send supplies and servants to TOJ, would be willing to house Lyanna and Jon. Perhaps trade Dawn for Jon (again--I'm taking this idea from WhitewolfStark on another thread--the trading of the sword for baby part).

Main point: the TOJ fight and finding Lyanna--could (stressing the word could) be at different places--that's what makes things a bit tidier.

Edited to hopefully be clearer.

[BearQueen87]

No--I don't think he murdered anyone. Killed the Kingsguard, but that was a straightforward fight.

Am assuming the Daynes had no desire to keep up the fight. Would want to keep it all secret. Happy to get Dawn back (I lifted this idea from WhitestarkWolf on another thread)--but still, something is horrible enough to potentially drive Ashara's suicide. Am assuming that if the Daynes were willing to send supplies and servants to TOJ, would be willing to house Lyanna and Jon. Perhaps trade Dawn for Jon (again--I'm taking this idea from WhitewolfStark on another thread--the trading of the sword for baby part).

Main point: the TOJ fight and finding Lyanna--could (stressing the word could) be at different places--that's what makes things a bit tidier.

Edited to hopefully be clearer.

Could? Yes, certainly. I just don't know if it makes it tidier. You'd have to explain how Ned knew to go to Starfall after the fight. If you're suggesting Dayne told him...possibly if Dayne was convinced that he could trust Ned with the big Baby Boy Jon secret (his existence to start, but then his status as true born prince as well). But is that keeping with his sworn KG vows to put the King and those Dayne is sworn to in no danger. And of course that brings us to the Great Debate That Shall Never End Until GRRM Says So: #TeamObey vs #TeamProtect. Why was there no KG at Starfall with Baby Boy Jon? One of them wold have gone to Jon and Lyanna either because they were sworn to protect Lyanna at Rhaegar's behest OR because they believed him to be Aerys's heir now that Rhaegar and Aegon were dead, based on their own understanding of succession.

[Bael's Bastard]

So Lyanna and or Jon are hostages for Dawn? Moving Jon and or Lyanna from the tower just makes things more convoluted, and involves many more potential witnesses to something which was clearly very low key and stealth. If Jon and or Lyanna were at Starfall it just makes it even more unbelievable that the truth has never come out. With Ned, Howland, and maybe another survivor or two, it is still a feat, but more likely.