R+L=J v.143

[Voice]

No responses to this post? Ms BearQueen? Anyone? I thought I raised some good points, but then, I'm biased. ;)

Hmm... An interesting question. The problem I've always had with adding Starfall to the story (Jon at Starfall, Lyanna at Starfall, etc) was that there would be quite a number of people who would know the truth.

Which is why I personally don't think that the 'they' who found Ned included a multitude of servants. If any, one seems to have been enough, perhaps two.. but more? No.

Assuming both Lyanna and Jon were at the tower, could 'they' have been Howland and Jon? In that case, the KG would have moved the babe to a room away from the sick mother. Or can't a grown man and a baby count as 'they found him'?

You seem to assume that there is not a number of people who know the truth. We don't know that is actually the case or not.

We've nothing to suggest Rhaegar was trying to hide his son from the world.

In fact, what would be the point in going through so much trouble to sire a child without anyone knowing about it exactly?

The best explanation (for the "they found him") was the one offered by KingMonkey (I think), some weeks ago, that the fight with the KG occurred after Lyanna died. The KG and the other northerners, these are the people that found Ned, holding onto her body.

And imo, the fight occurred because the KG and Ned both wanted to protect Jon, but didn't agree, or couldn't agree, on the best way to go about it. Ned had Lyanna's promise - which I suspect included 'don't let them crown him'. Like in Myrcella's case, crowning Jon would have been equivalent to killing him. Or the promise could have been, to ‘get him back’.

That's a horrible explanation, and one that is not supported by the text whatsoever.

The best explanation for "they found him" is that there was a wetnurse because you don't have to juggle with timelines or solve the logistics of two nonlactating males transporting a newborn for miles and miles or wonder how Wylla got on the bandwagon. Just saying.

So we agree on Starfall... ;)

We have, as far as I'm aware, no indication that Rhaegar and Lyanna were at the ToJ

Indeed.

[Sly Wren]

But when GRRM says don't take the fever dream literally, which parts of it does he want us to not take literally? Is it the whole thing--as in everything Ned dreams (a dream that makes perfect sense to him and one he's had before) doesn't resemble reality in anyway? Or is it that the events are real--Ned, 3KG, Lyanna, TOJ--but have been reworked in Ned's subconscious because he now has the gift of hindsight, that he knows the 3KG were protecting Rhaegar's son (legit or not, I'm leaving THAT argument at the door) and so the conversation between Ned and the 3KG becomes one that reflects that knowledge instead of what may or may not have been said in the historical reality.

Also, I gotta ask: what is gained in the narrative by having Lyanna and Baby Boy Jon at Starfall? And how does Ned know to go there? And why didn't Ned go there in the first place? Why wouldn't one KG go to Starfall with Lyanna and Jon? How did Ned secure the loyalty of all the servants at Starfall who would have known that Lyanna just gave birth to a baby boy after living in the castle for some indeterminate amount of time? Why did Rhaegar name the TOJ what he did if Lyanna and he were never there? And if they were there, when did Lyanna move to Starfall? And why?

1. The conversation between Ned and the KG doesn't seem that off. Seems like they are squaring off for a fight to the death--these are knights, their cause has fallen apart, they weren't able to kill Usurper in battle or protect Aerys. This is their battle. Ritualistic language could be realistic. Lyanna in a tower that can be pulled apart, that requires servants and supplies to be carted in--to me, that part just seems odd. As you know.

2. As for the narrative--I think it makes more sense if Lyanna isn't at TOJ. Knowing where to go? Someone above (think it may have been Voice of the First Men) made the argument that Arthur could have told Ned--"please take the sword back to my family. Lyanna is as Starfall." Could work. Lots of holes in the narrative on why Ned and Co. would know to go to the TOJ, too. Still have to speculate on that.

ETA: as for securing silence--Would have to do that anyway if Starfall has been the source of servants and/or supplies. Plus, seems like everyone there would have a really vested interest in not letting this secret out--Robert. Tywin. No one with the sense God gave a goat would want to admit any part in the baby.

But what I really think it adds is the idea that the KG don't think Jon can be king. I really think he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son (seen the argument on Arthur being father--maybe. Like Rhaegar better). But I don't think it makes sense that he will be king--too much northern imagery, too much mess of getting himself onto the throne even if he had "proof," too little desire on his part for anything like the Iron Throne.

If the KG are not with Jon or Lyanna, if they are at the TOJ to start a fight, means even they have given up on Jon being king. No one's going to be hiding artifacts to prove his paternity. No one's going to amass an army for him. No need to look for all that in the narrative.

Instead, can focus on what Jon's role might be as a son of Winterfell via his mother. Granted, you can focus on that even if the KG are with Jon or Lyanna--but if (for all reasons mentioned above) Lyanna at the TOJ seems unlikely, but KG are at TOJ, it may bolster the idea for the reader--Jon's not king. He's something else. So, what is he? That seems an interesting question to me.

[Mithras]

The Sack, yes. The murder of the Targ babies, yes. But would she have known that Robert called the Targ babies "dragonspawn"?

Considering that Robert killed Rhaegar and took the crown, Lyanna didnot need to hear the exact words. She could not have expected Robert to let Jon Targaryen be. This is how things work in feudalism. And besides, Ned might have told him before she died. So, whatever Lyanna was thinking before Ned came, she might have changed her mind after hearing Ned.

[BearQueen87]

Considering that Robert killed Rhaegar and took the crown, Lyanna didnot need to hear the exact words. She could not have expected Robert to let Jon Targaryen be. This is how things work in feudalism. And besides, Ned might have told him before she died. So, whatever Lyanna was thinking before Ned came, she might have changed her mind after hearing Ned.

I don't think I necessarily disagree with anything you're saying. It's more like, why does the promise need to be one thing; from your post a page back, that the promise is "tell him who he is someday." I think it's more likely that the promise is mulch-layered. Protect him, raise him, tell him, take me back to Winterfell, don't tell anyone (besides Jon someday) about what you've learned here....ect.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I meant, if she hadn't lived at Starfall before, or had been absent for a prolonged period of time.

Ah, sorry :)

You seem to assume that there is not a number of people who know the truth. We don't know that is actually the case or not.

We've nothing to suggest Rhaegar was trying to hide his son from the world.

In fact, what would be the point in going through so much trouble to sire a child without anyone knowing about it exactly?

You suggested that there might be a possibility that Ned killed (or had killed) whoever was part of the "they" who found him, safe Howland. I agree that it is an interesting question, and then adress a theory that has been stated here before: that either Jon, or Lyanna, or both, had been at Starfall at some point. A pregnant Lyanna having been at Starfall would mean she had been spotted by quite a number of people, hence, too many people would know something. Place Lyanna giving birth at Starfall, or simply her child at Starfall, that could give those exact problems. The only way such a problem could be circumvented, is by sending someone else to Starfall, who had never been there before, and who pretends the child is theirs.

The fact that, with either Jon or Lyanna at Starfall, there would be a bigger number of people who would know important information which might cause Ned's story to fall apart, should they be questioned, has always been an issue which had made me believe the Starfall scenario's, whichever one, was quit unlikely.

Adding to that your suggestion, that those who might have been at TOJ to find Ned holding Lyanna, might not have lived to tell the tale.. That's something that is quite a lot harder to do when it is an entire castle that potentially witnessed something. Your scenario would remove every single witness, which is quite an interesting idea to entertain, as I said before.

Because if someone else left TOJ, than that person knows essential information that Ned seems to want to keep silent. And people can talk, which could easily lead to dangerous situations..

I'm curious.. How do you fit Wylla into it all?

[Bael's Bastard]

We don't know who Wylla is or where she came on the scene from. Perhaps she came from Starfall, but as far as I can tell, all we know is Jon's wetnurse was already with him in Winterfell when Cat arrived, and Edric wasn't born until years later, though he claims Wylla had been "in our service" since before he was born.

[Mithras]

I don't think I necessarily disagree with anything you're saying. It's more like, why does the promise need to be one thing; from your post a page back, that the promise is "tell him who he is someday." I think it's more likely that the promise is mulch-layered. Protect him, raise him, tell him, take me back to Winterfell, don't tell anyone (besides Jon someday) about what you've learned here....ect.

I agree. I was responding to the suggestion that the promise includes some sort of coronation for Jon. If that was the case, Ned would never allow Jon to choose the black, at least before telling him the truth,

[Greymoon]

That's a horrible explanation, and one that is not supported by the text whatsoever.

Because the opposite is?

The dream:

1) He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

- The narrator's voice, insight on what the dream is about.

2) In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

- riding to the tower, memories mixed with dream elements. The friends rode with him, that's the element of truth.

3) They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

- the fight, seven facing three. That's the element that is unchanged from real life. as in life, they were seven facing three. "As it had been in life" does not apply to the whole dream sequence, but specifically, to their numbers. Just like above, it doesn't apply to the whole dream sequence, but only to the fact that Ned's friends rode with him.

4) Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

- describing the KG waiting at the bottom of the tower. Ned was riding with wraiths, now he's no longer riding, but looking at the three KG. There is something missing, here.

5) "I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends."

- the diaologue is sprung unto the reader suddenly, we don't know how much time passed between the moment Ned arrived, saw the KG waiting at the tower, and the moment this dialogue took place. If it even did.

6) As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.

"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise . . . "

"Lord Eddard," a man echoed from the dark.

- the fight and Lyanna's death intermingle, with metaphorical/dream elements, and a return to reality as Ned wakes.

There is no timeline in that dream sequence to speak of, it jumps from the one scene to the other, as dreams do. Dreams don't follow timelines, they follow an internal logic. So from there I'd argue that having the fight happening before Lyanna died in Ned's arms is an assumption.

The text doesn't tell us that Wylla was at the ToJ. The text tells us that Ned, Lyanna, the KG and the northerners were at the ToJ. It doesn't mention anyone else. It does say, "they" found him holding Lyanna. So until further proof, "they" refers to the lot we know with certainty were at the ToJ. There's your textual evidence.

[Sly Wren]

There is no timeline in that dream sequence to speak of, it jumps from the one scene to the other, as dreams do. Dreams don't follow timelines, they follow an internal logic. So from there I'd argue that having the fight happening before Lyanna died in Ned's arms is an assumption.

The text doesn't tell us that Wylla was at the ToJ. The text tells us that Ned, Lyanna, the KG and the northerners were at the ToJ. It doesn't mention anyone else. It does say, "they" found him holding Lyanna. So until further proof, "they" refers to the lot we know with certainty were at the ToJ. There's your textual evidence.

Fully agree on the jumbled timeline of the dream--have to fill in lots of gaps.

Still think the dialogue seems very reasonable for the reasons I gave to BearQueen87--these guys are gearing up for a fight. The language fits. But plenty might be missing--fully agree there.

But if you assert the dream isn't about timeline but memories and dreams mixing together--the line about Ned hearing Lyanna with the rush of steel and shadow--he's hearing this in his dream, not necessarily in real timeline. Steel, shadow, screaming, rose petals, blood-streaked sky--his dream is mixing all that together. Means Lyanna not necessarily at TOJ.

ETA: This is the part that's so easy to conflate--because Ned's dream conflates them for us. This is the part to be wary of (per Martin's warning).

He's hearing her in his dream. Like he sees the wraiths in his dream. Lyanna could very easily (and arguably more realistically) be elsewhere.

[Voice]

You suggested that there might be a possibility that Ned killed (or had killed) whoever was part of the "they" who found him, safe Howland. I agree that it is an interesting question, and then adress a theory that has been stated here before: that either Jon, or Lyanna, or both, had been at Starfall at some point. A pregnant Lyanna having been at Starfall would mean she had been spotted by quite a number of people, hence, too many people would know something. Place Lyanna giving birth at Starfall, or simply her child at Starfall, that could give those exact problems. The only way such a problem could be circumvented, is by sending someone else to Starfall, who had never been there before, and who pretends the child is theirs.

The fact that, with either Jon or Lyanna at Starfall, there would be a bigger number of people who would know important information which might cause Ned's story to fall apart, should they be questioned, has always been an issue which had made me believe the Starfall scenario's, whichever one, was quit unlikely.

Adding to that your suggestion, that those who might have been at TOJ to find Ned holding Lyanna, might not have lived to tell the tale.. That's something that is quite a lot harder to do when it is an entire castle that potentially witnessed something. Your scenario would remove every single witness, which is quite an interesting idea to entertain, as I said before.

Because if someone else left TOJ, than that person knows essential information that Ned seems to want to keep silent. And people can talk, which could easily lead to dangerous situations..

I'm curious.. How do you fit Wylla into it all?

I think that's cool you think the idea of Ned killing everyone present is interesting, but that wasn't my point...

What evidence do we have that Rhaegar wanted to keep his son's existence silent? What would be the point in fathering a child no one is meant to know about?

It seems that a lot of people here are taking Ned's promise, Ned's secrecy, and attributing it to Rhaegar's motives with Lyanna. In truth, we've no reason to do that. Rhaegar did not keep the qolab crown a secret. And the whole realm knew about his "abduction" of Lyanna. So why should we assume Rhaegar did not want it known that he fathered a son with Lyanna?

Keeping in mind that Ned is the one with the secret, not Rhaegar, the prince should have no trouble at all with the nobles and commoners of Starfall knowing about Jon Snow. The reality of this is apparent in Edric Dayne's familiarity with Jon Snow in the text.

And, to answer your question at the end... Wylla nursed Jon at Starfall, where his birth was attended by a maester.

We don't know who Wylla is or where she came on the scene from. Perhaps she came from Starfall, but as far as I can tell, all we know is Jon's wetnurse was already with him in Winterfell when Cat arrived, and Edric wasn't born until years later, though he claims Wylla had been "in our service" since before he was born.

She sounds like Starfall's younger version of Old Nan, to me...

“My lady?” Ned said at last. “You have a baseborn brother… Jon Snow?”

“He’s with the Night’s Watch on the Wall.” Maybe I should go to the Wall instead of Riverrun. Jon wouldn’t care who I killed or whether I brushed my hair… “Jon looks like me, even though he’s bastard-born. He used to muss my hair and call me ‘little sister.’” Arya missed Jon most of all. Just saying his name made her sad. “How do you know about Jon?”

“He is my milk brother.”

“Brother?” Arya did not understand. “But you’re from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood?”

“Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me.”

Arya was lost. “Who’s Wylla?”

“Jon Snow’s mother. He never told you? She’s served us for years and years. Since before I was born.”

“Jon never knew his mother. Not even her name.” Arya gave Ned a wary look. “You know her? Truly?” Is he making mock of me? “If you lie I’ll punch your face.”

“Wylla was my wetnurse,” he repeated solemnly. “I swear it on the honor of my House.”

“You have a House?” That was stupid; he was a squire, of course he had a House. “Who are you?”

“My lady?” Ned looked embarrassed. “I’m Edric Dayne, the… the Lord of Starfall.”

Because the opposite is?

The dream:

1) He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

- The narrator's voice, insight on what the dream is about.

2) In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

- riding to the tower, memories mixed with dream elements. The friends rode with him, that's the element of truth.

3) They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life.

- the fight, seven facing three. That's the element that is unchanged from real life. as in life, they were seven facing three. "As it had been in life" does not apply to the whole dream sequence, but specifically, to their numbers. Just like above, it doesn't apply to the whole dream sequence, but only to the fact that Ned's friends rode with him.

4) Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

- describing the KG waiting at the bottom of the tower. Ned was riding with wraiths, now he's no longer riding, but looking at the three KG. There is something missing, here.

5) "I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends."

- the diaologue is sprung unto the reader suddenly, we don't know how much time passed between the moment Ned arrived, saw the KG waiting at the tower, and the moment this dialogue took place. If it even did.

6) As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.

"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise . . . "

"Lord Eddard," a man echoed from the dark.

- the fight and Lyanna's death intermingle, with metaphorical/dream elements, and a return to reality as Ned wakes.

There is no timeline in that dream sequence to speak of, it jumps from the one scene to the other, as dreams do. Dreams don't follow timelines, they follow an internal logic. So from there I'd argue that having the fight happening before Lyanna died in Ned's arms is an assumption.

The text doesn't tell us that Wylla was at the ToJ. The text tells us that Ned, Lyanna, the KG and the northerners were at the ToJ. It doesn't mention anyone else. It does say, "they" found him holding Lyanna. So until further proof, "they" refers to the lot we know with certainty were at the ToJ. There's your textual evidence.

So after the KG and Howland Reed find Ned holding Lyanna's corpse, they start fighting? Really? You don't see any issue with that?

[Bael's Bastard]

There is really nothing yet that puts her at Starfall before she was Jon's wetnurse (assuming what Edric has been told is true), just at some point before Edric was born. Starfall certainly seems a good possibility.

We don't know who Eddard has in mind when he says Wylla, who Edric has in mind when he says Wylla, who Jon's wetnurse at Winterfell was when Cat arrived, whether these are all the same person, who that person is, etc.

[Greymoon]

So after the KG and Howland Reed find Ned holding Lyanna's corpse, they start fighting? Really? You don't see any issue with that?

No, imo, there is no problem with that, because the KG's duty went to Jon. The three KG could not allow Ned to take Jon with him - whether that meant going to Starfall to fetch him, or taking him from the tower (if Jon was at the ToJ). That's why they had to fight, not because Ned wanted to see his sister, but because he promised to take care of her son. The KG imo, allowed Ned to see his dying sister, how could they not?

Would Ned remember the KG as honorable, if they had actually prevented him from seeing a dying and feverish Lyanna? I don't think so.

It makes more sense that the KG let Ned inside the tower, so he could be at Lyanna's side when she died. Afterwards, they fought, because Ned was like "I'm taking my nephew" and the KG was like "No, you're not, that's our King."

[WeaselPie]

Another little tidbit:

There's actually no canon that puts the KG at the toj for any extended period of time.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said.

He doesn't say "We were here in the Red Mountains of Dorne at the Tower of Joy the entire time." They could have been anywhere in the interim.

[Greymoon]

Fully agree on the jumbled timeline of the dream--have to fill in lots of gaps.

Still think the dialogue seems very reasonable for the reasons I gave to BearQueen87--these guys are gearing up for a fight. The language fits. But plenty might be missing--fully agree there.

But if you assert the dream isn't about timeline but memories and dreams mixing together--the line about Ned hearing Lyanna with the rush of steel and shadow--he's hearing this in his dream, not necessarily in real timeline. Steel, shadow, screaming, rose petals, blood-streaked sky--his dream is mixing all that together. Means Lyanna not necessarily at TOJ.

ETA: This is the part that's so easy to conflate--because Ned's dream conflates them for us. This is the part to be wary of (per Martin's warning).

He's hearing her in his dream. Like he sees the wraiths in his dream. Lyanna could very easily (and arguably more realistically) be elsewhere.

It's repeated more than once though that Lyanna was somewhere in the red mountains/ToJ. It's also confirmed in the App. For these sort of things, I do believe GRRM's green light is needed. The information may not be entirely accurate, because lack of details, or because GRRM doesn't want to reveal eveything yet, but that's different from it being entirely false.

[WeaselPie]

It's repeated more than once though that Lyanna was somewhere in the red mountains/ToJ. It's also confirmed in the App. For these sort of things, I do believe GRRM's green light is needed. The information may not be entirely accurate, because lack of details, or because GRRM doesn't want to reveal eveything yet, but that's different from it been entirely false.

No actually, it's not repeated anywhere in the book. Barbrey said Ned brought her bones North, but not from where. There is nothing in the books to place Lyanna at the toj, nor Starfall, nor even Dorne, apart from Ned's fever dream. Nice to see people questioning that, actually.

[Greymoon]

Another little tidbit:

There's actually no canon that puts the KG at the toj for any extended period of time.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said.

He doesn't say "We were here in the Red Mountains of Dorne at the Tower of Joy the entire time." They could have been anywhere in the interim.

true :)

[Voice]

It's repeated more than once though that Lyanna was somewhere in the red mountains/ToJ. It's also confirmed in the App. For these sort of things, I do believe GRRM's green light is needed. The information may not be entirely accurate, because lack of details, or because GRRM doesn't want to reveal eveything yet, but that's different from it being entirely false.

The app is the only source that emphatically states Lyanna was located in the Red Mountains/toj, and as BearQueen has pointed out, Elio and Linda wrote the new material contained within it.

[Greymoon]

No actually, it's not repeated anywhere in the book. Barbrey said Ned brought her bones North, but not from where. There is nothing in the books to place Lyanna at the toj, nor Starfall, nor even Dorne, apart from Ned's fever dream. Nice to see people questioning that, actually.

Okay. But the fight did take place in the moutains of dorne, though. That's said, iirc. And, about Lyanna it's said in the app, isn't it? I do think that the app is not entirely accurate, but I doubt it's false...

[Greymoon]

The app is the only source that emphatically states Lyanna was located in the Red Mountains/toj, and as BearQueen has pointed out, Elio and Linda wrote the new material contained within it.

Yes. Still, I wouldn't consider it 100% accurate, simply because 100% accuracy, would certainly spoil some of the mysteries in the books. Like family trees in the appendix are not 100% accurate.

[Ygrain]

Fully agree on the jumbled timeline of the dream--have to fill in lots of gaps.

Still think the dialogue seems very reasonable for the reasons I gave to BearQueen87--these guys are gearing up for a fight. The language fits. But plenty might be missing--fully agree there.

But if you assert the dream isn't about timeline but memories and dreams mixing together--the line about Ned hearing Lyanna with the rush of steel and shadow--he's hearing this in his dream, not necessarily in real timeline. Steel, shadow, screaming, rose petals, blood-streaked sky--his dream is mixing all that together. Means Lyanna not necessarily at TOJ.

ETA: This is the part that's so easy to conflate--because Ned's dream conflates them for us. This is the part to be wary of (per Martin's warning).

He's hearing her in his dream. Like he sees the wraiths in his dream. Lyanna could very easily (and arguably more realistically) be elsewhere.

Let's re-phrase for an umpteenth time: the narrator's voice, as Greymoon correctly put it, summarizes the dream and establishes that it is not the first time that Ned dreams about the KG, the tower and Lyanna in her bed of blood. It is this summary that establishes the connection between the three, not just the actual content of the dream.

BTW, dear son of Winterfell, which Heretic's sock are you?