Edmure tully responsible for Robb Starks fate

[LordPathera]

The Fords Debacle is the fault of both Robb and Edmure.

Robb should have communicated his intentions to Edmure so that Edmure knows the purpose behind his orders. The plan itself is a risk considering that Tywin's forces outnumbered Robb at least 2 to 1 and there's no guarantee that Blackfish's ambush plan would have worked. Then again, Robb's forces would be feeding off of Tywin's lands while Tywin's army is mostly foot, would be tired and cut-off from supplies which is made only worse if Robb's cavalry is employing a scorched earth policy (a common tactic of raiding offenses)

Edmure was told to "Hold Riverrun" that clearly means hold your position and don't attack unless attacked. Instead, Edmure went on the offensive when Tywin was trying to leave the Riverlands and go back West. But Edmure wanted some piece of the glory (Edmure's commentary supports this) and so he trapped a retreating army in his own ravaged, war-torn lands where the Lannisters will be free to continue ravaging and pillaging his people.

[LordPathera]

DP

[thelittledragonthatcould]

i find the thought that robbs plan is a major plothole interesting

I dont think it is. Robb needed Edmure to marry a Frey so he guilt him into it.

Just before Robb and the Blackfish smack down Edmure, in private away from all the other Riverlords who all agreed with Edmures plan Cat thinks of how Robb has manipulated her into not being able to say anything about his marriage.

Only then came her belated remembrance. Follies done for love? He has bagged me neat as a hare in a snare. I seem to have already forgiven him. Mixed with her annoyance was a rueful admiration; the scene had been staged with the cunning worthy of a master mummer . . . or a king. Catelyn saw no choice but to take Jeyne Westerling's hands. "I have a new daughter,"

Robb hasn't just gotten a better commander as the war has progressed, he has also became a better politician.

The reader can easily see the flaws with Robbs 'plan' but Edmure faced with three people who dont really respect him caves in and takes the blame.

[Wmarshal]

The Fords Debacle is the fault of both Robb and Edmure.

Robb should have communicated his intentions to Edmure so that Edmure knows the purpose behind his orders. The plan itself is a risk considering that Tywin's forces outnumbered Robb at least 2 to 1 and there's no guarantee that Blackfish's ambush plan would have worked. Then again, Robb's forces would be feeding off of Tywin's lands while Tywin's army is mostly foot, would be tired and cut-off from supplies which is made only worse if Robb's cavalry is employing a scorched earth policy (a common tactic of raiding offenses)

Edmure was told to "Hold Riverrun" that clearly means hold your position and don't attack unless attacked. Instead, Edmure went on the offensive when Tywin was trying to leave the Riverlands and go back West. But Edmure wanted some piece of the glory (Edmure's commentary supports this) and so he trapped a retreating army in his own ravaged, war-torn lands where the Lannisters will be free to continue ravaging and pillaging his people.

Well there is also the factor we heard of another version of the plan, from a scout saying Edmure was to also watch his rear.

[Blackfish Tully]

No, Edmure like any reasonable commander is going to sit there and think I have the defensive advantage, I'm going to protect my lands and my King's rear by using the defensive advantage to halt or severely diminish the army of Tywin Lannister before he can get back West and likely defeat the king.

The problem I have with the "Edmure is protecting Robb's rear" line of thought is the fact that Cat and Edmure specifically discuss whether or not he should attack Tywin and protecting Robb's rear never comes up . Wouldn't Edmure lead with that argument if that is the case? And wouldn't Cat be worried about Robb if that was the case? Instead she tells Edmure to let Tywin pass. That makes no sense if protecting Robb's rear was a consideration. Protecting his rear only mattered while he was advancing on Oxcross , after that he was on his own.

Cat says "He is making for the West to defend his own lands, if we close our gates and shelter behind the wall, we can watch him pass with safety"

"This is Tully land ", Edmure delcared , " If Tywin Lannister thinks to cross it unblooded , I mean to teach him a hard lesson"

As for protecting his lands , Tywin is leaving the Riverlands , if protecting his lands is a consideration wouldn't it be better to let him leave and then set up a defensive perimeter so he cannot return easily?

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Walder Frey, Roose Bolton, and Tywin Lannister are responsible for the fate of Robb Stark. Claiming that anyone else is responsible is a deliberate attempt to shift the blame and responsibility from the people who conspired and acted to betray and kill him.

Edmure Tully may be guilty of being an idiot, but he is not guilty of betraying and murdering his King. He is no more responsible for the Red Wedding then a waitress, who upon dropping a cup of coffee in a man's lap, causing him to be late for the subway, and subsequently mugged and murdered while waiting for the next train, is responsible for said man's murder.

I demand this case be immediately dismissed, the thread closed, and the accuser chastised.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Robb Stark, Walder Frey, Roose Bolton, and Tywin Lannister are responsible for the fate of Robb Stark. Claiming that anyone else is responsible is a deliberate attempt to shift the blame and responsibility from the people who conspired and acted to betray and kill him.

Fixed your post.

[BitsOfBrains]

Edmure did what the Lord of Rivverrun should have done which is protect his land and people from invaders, he successfully defeated Tywin Lannister and gets nothing but shat on for it. Rob should have informed Edmure exactly what he ment by hold RR, holding RR could have ment defend RR lands which he successfully did. Edmure is a honest man who isn't a great commander but an awsome Lord ....

I completely agree. If Edmure had let Tywin run roughshod over his lands without a direct order from his king not to engage he would have been in dereliction of duty and the Riverlords might have abandoned him.

If Robb had clued Edmure in Edmure could have bled Tywin at the fords and harried him all the way to Robbs trap.

Robb didn't have to tell everyone, just maybe Edmure, Malister, and Blackwood would have been enough.

[Blackfish Tully]

Blaming Edmure for the Fords may be unfair considering Robb's cause may have been lost at that point no matter what Edmure did but it may be fair to blame Edmure for the fact that the Riverlords did a terrible job defending their territory from the Lannister in the beginning. If the Riverlands ( and Edmure was the de facto Lord since Hoster was sick ) had put up any semblance of a defense then things would have gone much differently for Robb and the Riverlands. If the Riverlords had been able to fight the Lannister's to a stalemate and since it's their homeland that does not seem to be impossible Robb would not have had to use the Twins to save Riverrun and he would not have to make the deal with Walder and the Freys would have probably joined with the rest of the Riverlords if they saw things going Edmure's way. Tywin would not have had Harrenhall to hole up in and would have been in serious trouble fighting the war on different fronts. The number one job a Lord Paramount has is to look to the defense of his land and the Tully's did a poor job preparing for an invasion. Letting Harrenhall fall apart and not making sure the Whents could probably defend it was only one of many things that they let slide over the years.

[person67]

Walder Frey, Roose Bolton, and Tywin Lannister are responsible for the fate of Robb Stark. Claiming that anyone else is responsible is a deliberate attempt to shift the blame and responsibility from the people who conspired and acted to betray and kill him.

Edmure Tully may be guilty of being an idiot, but he is not guilty of betraying and murdering his King. He is no more responsible for the Red Wedding then a waitress, who upon dropping a cup of coffee in a man's lap, causing him to be late for the subway, and subsequently mugged and murdered while waiting for the next train, is responsible for said man's murder.

I demand this case be immediately dismissed, the thread closed, and the accuser chastised.

are you the sort of person who wastes his entire life harassing random people he does not know. you think someone's wrong fine but don't either make a joke out of them or for no reason start making dumb demands.

yeah fine a lot more people had a role to play than just edmure tully thats true.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I always thought of Edmure as inept, but Robb caused his downfall. If he sticks with the marriage proposal, nothing happens to Robb and his men. At least Robb does not give Walder a good reason to betray him, though Walder could still betray him.

As far as the Fords go, what everyone else said.

[person67]

while not Edmures fault and thats not really what the orignal post was about, it was more about if Edmure had listened to his sister what would have happened. If Tywin had marched west, Frey would not have been able to carry out the Red Wedding although suppose you could argue they would kill him anyway.

[Beautiful Balon]

Edmure did nothing wrong and, the dude helped captured Harrenhal and beat Tywin in battle. If it wasn't for the Tyrell alliance, Ironborn, Robb Starks Terrible taste in women he could have virtually won the war.

Also Robb's plan was totally bullshit meant to guilt trip him. When Robb went west The ironborn were nuetral and Renly was still alive. The fact that the sitation changed so drastically(Renly was taking his time heading to kings landing) Means that he couldn't have planned ahead.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Robb is responsible for Robb's fate . Edmure didn't cause him to Robb to marry Jeyne Westerling or behead Rickard Karstark .

[Jasta11]

I dont think it is. Robb needed Edmure to marry a Frey so he guilt him into it.

Just before Robb and the Blackfish smack down Edmure, in private away from all the other Riverlords who all agreed with Edmures plan Cat thinks of how Robb has manipulated her into not being able to say anything about his marriage.

Only then came her belated remembrance. Follies done for love? He has bagged me neat as a hare in a snare. I seem to have already forgiven him. Mixed with her annoyance was a rueful admiration; the scene had been staged with the cunning worthy of a master mummer . . . or a king. Catelyn saw no choice but to take Jeyne Westerling's hands. "I have a new daughter,"

Robb hasn't just gotten a better commander as the war has progressed, he has also became a better politician.

The reader can easily see the flaws with Robbs 'plan' but Edmure faced with three people who dont really respect him caves in and takes the blame.

Yup. Robb just showed he had no qualms about semi manipulating his mother, nothing indicates he's above guilt tripping Edmure in order to get him to patch up the Frey alliance.

Edmure did what he had to do. Without compromising Riverrun, he defeated Tywin by stopping him from crossing in his lands, with the possibility in mind that Tywin might come back to the Westerlands and severely outnumber Robb on his home turf being a particularily dire one no matter how much of a Sun Tzu Reborn Robb is.

If Robb wanted Edmure to act in a very specific way to fit into his secret master plan, he should have freaking told him. Not hope that Edmure would sit in Riverrun like a good boy when all theorders he had were to ensure Rverrun was held, which he did.

Besides, it's not like that changed much. The Tyrells still manage to teleport 60K men to the Blackwater without anyone noticing and win the battle. At best it means they have more of an ascendent on the Lannisters. But Robb still gets killed at the RW due to his own actions, which Edmure had nothing to do with.

[Lord Lannister]

Honestly, Robb's cause was doomed the moment Stannis killed Renly. Renly was the only Iron Throne claimant that would even entertain an independent North, and even then that was in name only. Stannis and Joffrey both would've turned on Robb no matter what happened at the Blackwater. All the blunders by Robb(yes he made some) and his bannermen did was accelerate the process. A separatist movement isn't going to be successful so long as the majority of Westeros still bends the knee to the Iron Throne.

[Buried Treasure]

I completely agree. If Edmure had let Tywin run roughshod over his lands without a direct order from his king not to engage he would have been in dereliction of duty and the Riverlords might have abandoned him.

If Robb had clued Edmure in Edmure could have bled Tywin at the fords and harried him all the way to Robbs trap.

Robb didn't have to tell everyone, just maybe Edmure, Malister, and Blackwood would have been enough.

Edmure had already acted to prevent Tywin riding roughshod over his lands without intervention. When they were gathered at Riverrun Edmure petitioned Robb to allow the Riverlords to each return to their own lands and guard against raiding parties from Tywin's army.

After Robb went west, Edmure changed his *own* strategy by recalling the Riverlords back into an army. He did this without informing Robb - which is a massive failure of communication as Robb was making plans that relied on Edmure continuing to do the same thing they had agreed when they were last together.

OTOH, Edmure developed a plan for crushing Tywin's army after beating him back at the fords. It was not a bad plan, as his lords apparently agreed, but it did rely on Robb moving back east to catch Tywin between hammer and anvil - yet Edmure never bothered to inform Robb about that plan or what he would need to do to make it work!

[Lord Freypie]

To resume their lack of communication was responsible of their collective failure to trap Tywin..

Robb should have taken maesters and birds with him and devised a secret code to communicate with Riverrun and one or the other plan could have worked..

Out of that the five main mistakes in KoN revival short history, were made by Robb : sending Theon to the Iron Islands despite Cat advice, marrying Jeyne, executing Karstark, and trusting the Freys and Boltons to be honorable and continue to follow him when he was clearly the losing side, so hard to blame anyone else.

[The Fallen]

Edmure had already acted to prevent Tywin riding roughshod over his lands without intervention. When they were gathered at Riverrun Edmure petitioned Robb to allow the Riverlords to each return to their own lands and guard against raiding parties from Tywin's army.

After Robb went west, Edmure changed his *own* strategy by recalling the Riverlords back into an army. He did this without informing Robb - which is a massive failure of communication as Robb was making plans that relied on Edmure continuing to do the same thing they had agreed when they were last together.

OTOH, Edmure developed a plan for crushing Tywin's army after beating him back at the fords. It was not a bad plan, as his lords apparently agreed, but it did rely on Robb moving back east to catch Tywin between hammer and anvil - yet Edmure never bothered to inform Robb about that plan or what he would need to do to make it work!

Thank you.

I just want to mention two things. One, do we really think that when Robb held his war council that all he said to Edmure was the kind-of-vague "hold Riverrun"? To me "hold Riverrun" is merely shorthand for Edmure's orders. Whatever they might have been.

Two, and this touches on Buried Treasure's post, even if Robb's actual orders were simply "hold Riverrun" I doubt they can be interpreted to mean; reform the riverlands army; order the garrison Robb left at the Twins to join Roose; send Roose to take Harrenhal (the reason Robb went west was to avoid attacking Harrenhal); change the war strategy to now trap Tywin in the riverlands (a plan Robb was unaware of).

I don't think Robb can be held responsible for any of those actions. At best, we can blame Robb for leaving Edmure in charge.

[Buried Treasure]

Holding Riverrun means only that and Edmure far exceeded that duty. The claim is that Edmure was left to 'guard his grace's back' but those were the words of a probably mid-ranking Riverlander guarding an outlying ford, not someone we have ever heard of a being included in the high councils. The words were repeated to Catelyn perhaps second or third hand. We do not know exactly what orders Robb gave Edmure, that claim may have come from Edmure misinterpreting Robb's or the scouts at the fords assuming they were acting in line with Robb's orders because otherwise it wouldn't make sense that they had been recalled from their own castles.