Astronomy of Ice and Fire: Children of the Dawn, Part Two

[Jon Fossoway]

Thank you Lucifer. I actually print your essays to read them more confortably. :D

[LmL]

Does this mean I'm published???? ;)

Another good tip is to use the text-to-speech option on your computer, if your comp has an acceptable reading voice to use. Alex on the Mac is pretty tolerable.

Thanks so much for the kind words and I am very glad you enjoy the essays. :cheers:

[LordImp]

But if their is some fire Monsters in the far east , do you think they are just ast the Others , you know killing and raising them again? There is the city of bloodless men who sounds like a city full of wights. Dou you think they are a race of darkness just like the Others ?

[Lady Arya's Song]

I have been following along and have read all your essays. I also print them off and I now have a notebook full. :bowdown:

The amount of time you have spent to type to search the books and type everything up is hugely appreciated. Thank you for such thought provoking threads.

A huge thanks to all the other regulars who also add so much detail. Really enjoyable reads. :) It is nice to know I am not the only person who probably has around ten binders full of subtle clues that GRRM has written into this amazing series.

[LmL]

Thanks so much Lady Arya's Song! I really appreciate you taking the time to say so.

Be sure to check out mynwordpress page, as I am going through my first essays and updating them with all the fantastic stuff people have turned up over the past few months (and of course quietly discarding the ideas which feel by the wayside;) ). I have the first one finished, and am working on the bloodstone compendium update right now. I was surprised at how much new stuff has turned up since then. Cheers!

[Voice]

When a skinchanger is killed, their soul goes into their animal. If one wanted to resurrect such a recently deceased skinchanger (let's just say he's the main character in a fantasy series who's been stabbed but needs to live), one would need to resurrect the corpse through blood sacrifice (only death can pay for life), and force the soul from the animal back into the resurrected body. Perhaps both can be accomplished by sacrificing the animal containing the soul, and then putting the "strength of the beast" into the rider. This spell left Drogo a vegetable because his soul wasn't actually in the horse, as the Dothraki have lost their skinchanging ability. Thus it served Mirri Maz Dur's purposes (she knew it would leave Drogo a vegetable).

You know I'm with ya on Khal Veggo. Beric was equally soulless, as is Stoneheart in my classification. I see Coldhands as being the opposite, dead flesh/living soul.

Obviously, if true, this has implications for Jon. There are a lot of clues about Ghost needing to be sacrificed... I certainly hope I am wrong but I tend to doubt it. Mithras had to sacrifice his white bull to be reborn, and Jon is Mithras.¹ But take heart - the strength of the horse goes into the rider, much like Nissa Nissa's strength and soul went into the steel of Lightbringer. We know that dead skinchange's soul begins to merge with their animal after a time, so it's likely that Ghost's ghost will have merged with Jon's spirit to some degree, and this Jon will be part Ghost, in more ways than one.²

Robb smiled when she said that. “There are worse things than spiders³ and rats,” he whispered. “This is where the dead walk.⁴” That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery⁵. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya’s hand.⁶ When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb,⁷ pale white⁸ and moaning for blood⁹, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs¹⁰, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb’s leg, sobbing¹⁰. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch¹¹. It was only Jon, covered with flour¹². (AGOT, Arya)

:agree: with all of this... some notes:

1. This sounds like the Last Hero, and his poor "dog." I wonder if LH killed it himself, and if Jon will have to do the same. Ghost seems destined for the weir-life.
2. I like this.
3. :devil: No need to mention what things might be worse than "spiders" where the dead walk, right?
4. Where Jon walks, unwelcomed, in his dreams, without Ghost.
5. Deep, cold sounds. Like the infamous cracking of ice? Hmm... "the cracking..." "of Ice..."
6. As he now clutches Summer, Hodor, weirwoods, and would like to "clutch" Meera LOL
7. Jon in an open tomb. Lots to digest there, between his messiah imagery and his open invitation from the lower, elder levels of the crypts.
8. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.
9. Old Nan has taught them well :devil: Why would Arya be afraid? She wants more blood than anyone :)
10. That's kinda her thing...
11. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.
12. It was only Jon, covered with flower.

“The Moonsingers led us to this place of refuge, where the dragons of Valyria could not find us,” Denyo said. “Theirs is the greatest temple.

[…]

That is the Temple of the Moonsingers.” It was one of those that Arya had spied from the lagoon, a mighty mass of snow-white marble topped by a huge silvered dome¹ whose milk-glass windows showed all the phases of the moon². A pair of marble maidens³ flanked its gates, tall as the Sealords, supporting a crescent-shaped lintel. (AFFC, Arya)

It certainly sounds like a splendid structure, and it’s densely packed with moon imagery - icy moon imagery at that. Actually, I can’t resist unpacking this a bit. To start, we see the "colors of winter," silver / grey and white - Stark colors, of course. Arya should feel right at home here. The marble is described as "snow-white," adding to the imagery.

Agreed again.

1. Stone Snow and Silver (Metal?).
2. I can't help but point out the correlation between milkglass and moonlight...
3. I can't help but point out the duality of femininity...

We get the only appearance of actual milk-glass, which is significant because of three things which are described as appearing like milk-glass: the sword Dawn, and the bones of the Others, and the stalks of ghost grass that grow near Asshai.¹

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne², the Sword of the Morning³. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands.⁴ The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.⁵ (AGOT, Eddard)

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank⁶ and puddled,⁷ dissolving away.⁸ In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone,⁹ swirling away in a fine white mist.¹⁰ Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny,¹¹ and they were melting too.¹² (ASOS, Sam)

"Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass, taller than a man on horseback¹³ with stalks¹⁴ as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass¹⁵ and glows in the dark¹⁶ with the spirits of the damned.¹⁷ The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world,¹⁸ and then all life will end.¹⁹” (AGOT, Daenerys)

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade.²⁰ It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal²¹ so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on.²² There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges,²³ and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.²⁴

[…]

The pale sword came shivering through the air.²⁵ (AGOT, Prologue)

The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword-slim it was,²⁶ and milky white.²⁷

[…]

The weight of him tore the strange²⁸pale sword from the Other’s grip. (ASOS, Sam)

My working theory about Dawn the sword is that is was the original “Ice” of House Stark, and infused with some level of icy Others magic. I’m developing a whole theory about his, of course, which I won’t get into here. I do think it was made from the heart of a falling star, but it also seem to have some Other-ness to it.²⁹ It’s always described with the term milkglass, which is why I think it’s worth the time to consider these milkglass quotes. The ghost grass and the Others’s swords glow with "ghost light,” while Dawn glows with a “pale light.” Dawn is “alive with light,” the Other’s sword is “alive with moonlight.” The Others’s swords are called a “pale sword” twice; of course the tower at Starfall is called the "Palestone Sword.” ³⁰ The ghost grass which is taller than a man on horseback and murders everything else in an attempt to cover the world and extinguish all life sounds a lot like an army of Others during the Long Night “riding down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything we would call life.” ('93 GRRM letter to the editor) Naturally this grass is, like Dawn, “as pale as milkglass.” ³¹

Why the ominous connotations for the sword Dawn? Because (hypothesis) it was originally the sword of the King of Winter, the first Stark.³² We are supposed to believe that Bran the Builder, founder of House Stark, built the Wall (or at least the first part of it). That’s a pretty strong sign of the ancient Starks having some real ability with ice magic.³³ If anyone could infuse a sword that mortals can hold with Others' ice magic, this might be the guy.³⁴

We are of the same mind regarding Dawn as the original Ice. It was discussed in my closed-for-business Hierarchy thread as well. Loving all of this. Reminds me of some of our discussions in Heresy over the years. I've a few more notes:

1. I don't disagree regarding these three, of course, but there is other example: Pycelle's vials of death (Tyrion IV ACOK: The maester's medicines made an impressive display; dozens of pots sealed with wax, hundreds of stoppered vials, as many milkglass bottles, countless jars of dried herbs, each container neatly labeled in Pycelle's precise hand. An orderly mind, Tyrion reflected, and indeed, once you puzzled out the arrangement, it was easy to see that every potion had its place. And such interesting things. He noted sweetsleep and nightshade, milk of the poppy, the tears of Lys, powdered greycap, wolfsbane and demon's dance, basilisk venom, blindeye, widow's blood . . .).
2. The Day begins. Dayne marks the beginning. While Ned marks the end. Like night and day, these two boys... smh
3. "The Other's Milkglass Sword of the Morning." How could this be? Mayhaps the "falling star" from which Starfall is named was not an actual falling meteorite, but the "fall" of someone with "stars" for eyes. :smoking:
4. Sounds like quite a long sword... The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.
5. Alive? How?... The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.
6. Others shrink, apparently.
7. And puddle, too. If they shrink into puddles, do they grow from puddles? One wonders what strange puddles might be found that date back to the Long Night. (Winterfell's godswood, anybody?)
8. We've just been given a three step process by which an Other transitions from a beautiful inhuman form of life, made of Ice... shrinks into a puddle... then dissolves away (into mist?). I can't help but think this is their embryonic process in reverse. From dissolute :cool4: mist...to an inhuman form of life, made of Ice, growing from a puddle. One wonders what might happen if the Others reached Winter-Fell :devil: ...where Robb said the dead walk...
9. That's quick! Like way faster than salt on a slug (not that I've ever done it, personally)...
10. Dissipations of the Cold Forge, and this other form of life... [Dany X AGOT: Another step, and Dany could feel the heat of the sand on the soles of her feet, even through her sandals. Sweat ran down her thighs and between her breasts and in rivulets over her cheeks, where tears had once run. Ser Jorah was shouting behind her, but he did not matter anymore, only the fire mattered. The flames were so beautiful, the loveliest things she had ever seen, each one a sorcerer robed in yellow and orange and scarlet, swirling long smoky cloaks. She saw crimson firelions and great yellow serpents and unicorns made of pale blue flame; she saw fish and foxes and monsters, wolves and bright birds and flowering trees, each more beautiful than the last. She saw a horse, a great grey stallion limned in smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame. Yes, my love, my sun-and-stars, yes, mount now, ride now.] This other form of life's "blood." [bran V AGOT: The dagger fell away from Bran's throat. The big man swayed and collapsed, facedown in the stream. The arrow broke beneath him. Bran watched his life go swirling off in the water.] This is one of my favorites, Dany IV ACOK: The whispers became a swirling song. . . . Words are Wind, but Winds swirl and whisper songs of their own. And I think this next "song" will prove to be quite tumultuous.
11. The unique play of light that milkglass demonstrates just so happens to be caused by the same type of light-scattering that causes our own long nights to end with bright blue skies, as well as blue eye color. This scattering of light is known as the Tyndall effect, and can cast a song of ice and fire patterns. I have a feeling our Wall that shines "like blue crystal" (like this lump of milkglass) will be projecting some of these same colors.
12. Frozen Fire melts Milkglass Bones. If Frozen Fire takes on the black appearance of obsidian, what might this opposite substance be made of? I have some theories on this, but I'm still polishing the rough edges.
13. About the same height as an Other on Ice Spider-back methinks :devil:
14. stalks swords. "pointy ends"
15. It murders all other grass... The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."
16. The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice.
17. Umm yeah... we're not talking about grass anymore...
18. He set out into the dead lands with a sword, a horse, a dog, and a dozen companions. For years he searched, until he despaired of ever finding the children of the forest in their secret cities. One by one his friends died, and his horse, and finally even his dog, and his sword froze so hard the blade snapped when he tried to use it. And the Others smelled the hot blood in him, and came silent on his trail, stalking him with packs of pale white spiders big as hounds—
19. Unless you happen to be made of Ice.
20. Because it was created in the inhuman way, in another form of life's technology, in the Cold Forge. SSM: Ice. But not like regular old ice. The Others can do things with ice that we can't imagine and make substances of it.
21. like the Wall
22. Yet one more tactical advantage the Others have. Imagine trying to defend against a sword that you can't see when the edge of it is directed at you (while your internal organs feel like they are freezing solid, and your own blade is becoming brittle with their frost).
23. Moonlight, Starlight, the Lights of Darkness.
24. Like a certain other man's sword that will soon behead Gared... Arya V AGOT: Ser Ilyn drew a two-handed greatsword from the scabbard on his back. As he lifted the blade above his head, sunlight seemed to ripple and dance down the dark metal, glinting off an edge sharper than any razor. Ice, she thought, he has Ice! Her tears streamed down her face, blinding her.
25. Difficult to say if it brought the shiver or the shiver brought it....
26. They seem vanish when seen edge on as well, thanks to their armor. [so Spake Tommy Patterson, the comic book artist: Had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond.]
27. That's really, really white. Way whiter than a corpse, or the belly of a fish. Milky... Hmm...
28. Sounds weir...
29. What if the fallen star was an Other?
30. I'm very glad you brought up the Palestone (Milkglass) Sword Tower, because I was just about to :) great minds... This is why I was saying in PM that if Jon was born there (where Arthur's sister threw herself to her own death), that seems far more meaningful for Jon's northern fate, and the idea of he, himself, being forged like a sword, than does the tower of joy. [Dropping bombshell alert!!!] Ashara is the Nissa Nissa of Jon's birth at Starfall.
31. Yup.
32. Well covered ground in Heresy. I can only concur. I believe Starks were known as the Kings of Winter until the Andal Invasion and the fall of southron kingddoms to them. After that point, I believe the Starks became known as the "Kings of the North," as they were never conquered by the Andals. I also believe Ygritte and the Free Folk's awesome curse word, "Kneelers," comes from when Torrhen, the King in the North, knelt to Aegon the Conqueror, and that this act of fealty (rather than the building of the Wall) is what drove a wedge between kneeling First Men, and non.
33. Collectively, I'm not so sure, but they certainly like to talk about winter in a world where winter isn't exactly smalltalk. I do agree that at least one Ancient Stark found the ability to wield Ice Magic. The Stark connection to Winter is the predominant focus of Heresy, and this is well trod ground in that corner of the interwebs, but it is worth remembering that while northmen like to brag about how The North Remembers, there seems to be some crucial things they've forgotten. And, while Winter is Come, there is not Stark in Winterfell. All this equals shitstorm. But in the North, that means snow.
34. The text has provided an excellent candidate...

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room."

No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we'll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night's King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it's getting dark.

Mayhaps his name was Brandon by light of day. Brandon the Builder. But the Long Night was his to rule. And winter is coming. :devil:

[LmL]

Awesome, glad you liked all that Voice. I was thinking of you as I wrote a lot of that section. That was essentially a preview of my thoughts about the Dawn, the ancient Starks, and the Others. I'm glad we have you around to mention anything heresy related that I might not have thought of. It's definitely validating to know other people have brainstormed together and scrutinized text and come up with many of the same things I have. It just goes to show that we are all hitting on what is in the text.

It will be interesting to see what you think of my Others and Stark related essays. I know many people have had ideas about Starks, Others, and COTF / greenseers, but I haven't seen anyone put everything together in a theory with strong text support. Right now I have many different threads in my notes app; and I have several about the Others. I have categories for greenseers - others connections, Stark - Others connections, Kingsguard - Others connection, Fot7 - Others connections (!), and AA / Stranger / Others connections.

Thanks for the detailed commentary, I appreciated it and enjoyed reading.

I was surprised more people haven't commented on the Drogo-Dothraki-skinchanger connection and the Jon resurrection / CH stuff.

[LmL]

BTW I just reread the very first chapter where Robb is KitN - wow. wow. That one really popped. I think Martin was giving us a model of what the KoW really was.

[Mithras]

Star(k) down > star fall

star down > star Dawn

down > Dawn > Dayne

So, is it possible that the Daynes are fallen Starks?

[LmL]

Well I didn't follow your etymology, but if the Daynes are fallen Starks, than the Starks must be GEotD people too, who somehow changed their eye color to grey / ice.

The Daynes kind of have to be the descendants of the GEotD / Amethyst Empress... otherwise what's the point of giving them purple eyes?

I do think Dawn is the original Ice of course, so there is a connection. I think we both agree that the ToJ was highly symbolic in many levels.

[LmL]

Durran. I found something interesting concerning the colors of shooting stars (meteorites) from National Geographic:

The colors of this shooting star may also indicate the minerals that make up the space rock. Different elements emit different-colored light when they burn. Iron, one of the most common elements found in meteors, glows yellow. Silicates, which contain a form of the element silicon, glow red. A green glow, clearly visible in the trail of this shooting star, indicates the presence of burning copper.

​Silicates means glass. Obsidian. That could certainly be a relevant detail. The green glow, like the star Dunk saw under the elm tree, must have been copper. Is that meant to signify the first men, or the bronze age of Westeros?

[Voice]

:cheers: LmL. Always good stuff. I think there is far more to explore regarding the Palestone Sword tower. I've tried it with the RLJ folks, but it was too blasphemous I think. Jon being born at Star-Fall... only to be raised at Winter-Fell... only to become a man-grown at the Wall (as a red comet of all things emerges in the sky) feels right to me.

Star(k) down > star fall

star down > star Dawn

down > Dawn > Dayne

So, is it possible that the Daynes are fallen Starks?

I am seeing it similarly, actually, but in reverse.

I think Day(ne) made the Star(k) fall. Dayne was the Hero, and ("Mayhaps-Brandon") Stark declared himself the first King o' Winter during the Long Night (aka, Night's King). By day he was a man like any other, so by night, he was something other I'm guessing. By night, his eyes were likely stars.

We have Winter-Fell and Star-Fall as the seats of the two eldest houses of First Men we know of. One house carries the shadow of Ice of the long night, the other carries the Dawn that ended it. I believe that not only are these swords one and the same, but that the names of their seats describe precisely the same event: the end of the Long Night. House Dayne is a Chekhov's gun is many respects, but one suspicious mystery surrounding them, for me at least, is that we have not been told their words. I have a feeling they have much and more to do with Winter's Fall.

As the starry-eyed Night's King (named Star-k) fell, dawn broke the long night. Purple is the color of the horizon when dawn returns after a long night. The harbinger of the Day-ne.

I have a feeling that purple eyes might have some magical origin in this event, and that the seeds sewn at this time eventually led to the glory that was Valyria. Cold Darkness and the Fire of Daylight combine at dawn and scatter purple light. But, that's further down the rabbit hole :)

[LmL]

One thing: purple skies happen at dusk in the book far more than dawn - I've studied that specifically. The Am Em reigns right before nightfall as well. She was a falling star too - there were several at that time.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Don't forget King Vorian Dayne was called the Sword of the Evening.

He was sent to the Wall with a bunch of other kings after Nymeria kicked their butts all over Dorne.

[Mithras]

All he and Ramsay had in common were their eyes. His eyes are ice. Reek wondered if Roose Bolton ever cried. If so, do the tears feel cold upon his cheeks?

His lordship glanced at the new Reek with eyes as pale and strange as two white moons.

The Bolton eyes scream as “We are the blood of the Night’s King. We are the rightful Kings of Winter” to me.

Ice is not a gemstone though.

ETA: The story of the Night's King chasing and taking the Night's Queen to wife is damn similar to the usual wife-stealing practice of the wildlings we know.

Well I didn't follow your etymology, but if the Daynes are fallen Starks, than the Starks must be GEotD people too, who somehow changed their eye color to grey / ice.

The Daynes kind of have to be the descendants of the GEotD / Amethyst Empress... otherwise what's the point of giving them purple eyes?

I do think Dawn is the original Ice of course, so there is a connection. I think we both agree that the ToJ was highly symbolic in many levels.

"Dawn", "Dayne" and "down" sound similar.

Maybe the reason why Daynes kept the purple eyes while Starks didnot is that they have been possessing the Dawn. Or is it the other way around? Remember Stormbringer?

[LmL]

Great points Mithras, but the Starks also have Ice eyes, of course:

H e was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood. Eddard Stark jerked upright, his heart racing, the blankets tangled around him. The room was black as pitch, and someone was hammering on the door. “Lord Eddard,” a voice called loudly.

(AGOT, Eddard)

​There's also an "ice-eyes" Stark. I think the take-away here is the Boltons and Starks have a common origin. I could see NK = Boltons, Bran Breaker = Starks... who knows. The Bolton flaying seems like a corrupted version of skinchanging, as many have said. But we don't associate the NK with skinchanging, do we?

[LmL]

Oh and that Roose quote is a tasty one for my moons theory. The pale moon in the sky is an ice moon. Also, the implication of a second moon is there.

[LmL]

Don't forget King Vorian Dayne was called the Sword of the Evening.

He was sent to the Wall with a bunch of other kings after Nymeria kicked their butts all over Dorne.

I think about this quote a lot. It makes me think about the idea of Eldric Shadowchaser, son of AA and NN, is the purple-eyed LH. We have a "sword of the evening" going to the Wall... that would be the Last hero with dark Lightbringer, the red sunset sword, the sword of the evening - as opposed to Dawn, the sword of the morning.

This has been my idea all along a sword switching. The LH wielded dragon steel, dark Lightbringer, while original ICE, now known as Dawn, went south to Starfall.

Ned bringing Dawn (original Ice) to Starfall replays the past - a Stark bringing "Ice" down to Starfall. The Sword of the Evening, a Dayne, going to the Wall is a replay of the LH taking dark Lightbringer to the Wall.

Touchdown. :cool4:

[LordImp]

I think about this quote a lot. It makes me think about the idea of Eldric Shadowchaser, son of AA and NN, is the purple-eyed LH. We have a "sword of the evening" going to the Wall... that would be the Last hero with dark Lightbringer, the red sunset sword, the sword of the evening - as opposed to Dawn, the sword of the morning.

This has been my idea all along a sword switching. The LH wielded dragon steel, dark Lightbringer, while original ICE, now known as Dawn, went south to Starfall.

Ned bringing Dawn (original Ice) to Starfall replays the past - a Stark bringing "Ice" down to Starfall. The Sword of the Evening, a Dayne, going to the Wall is a replay of the LH taking dark Lightbringer to the Wall.

Touchdown. :cool4:

Sorry if i missed something , but if Dawn is original ice why take it south ? Wouldent it be better to keep the family sword where it belongs.

[LmL]

You need a fire sword to fight Others, and an Icy sword to defeat bloodstone emperors / dragon people. I think the first Stark wielding Ice probably defeated the Bloodstone E / AA at Battle Isle, the likely landfall for the BSE invading from the east, the site of their fused stone fortress. The Stark would have defeated the BSE (although maybe not killed, haven't figured that out yet), perhaps breaking his sword. Eventually the reforged firesword becomes the Last Hero's dragon steel. The LH could be the wounded and humbled AA, or his hypothetical son, this Eldric Shadowchaser, or even the Stark who first wielded Ice.

The point is, we know dragonsteel was in the hands of the LH. I certainly equate that with a firry weapon. Dawn, whose symbolism is 100% icy, is down at Starfall, while Ned's sword, not the original Ice, is all fire imagery. Of course I think Ned's sword was actually the dragonsteel one, kept at Winterfell to be ready when the LN comes again. makes sense, right? Keep the dragonsteel where it is needed.

It's all about balancing out fire with ice and vise versa.

And don't forget, the Starks came from the Reach by way of Brandon of the Bloody Blade, son of Garth Greenhand.