(Book Spoilers) Mannis 2 Society: Burning Anxiety

[Nefertari]

I hope this scene wasnt just for showing religious fanatism is bad, but actually accomplishes something. If the sacrifice was for nothing, it would be even worse......

From what I have seen, they probably come up now with a s*** story like this: Stannis realises burning Shireen didnt work, he regrets it, and gets killed (by Brienne?). The end of a great story

Sorry, but isn't this even more cruel?

Saying that its fine to kill your own innocent daughter if it means to gain a throne or having a profit...and feeling guilty ONLY if he gains nothing....makes Stannis even worse, if it's possible.

Stannis always got a free pass for his crimes, because apparently he's doing it for a sense of "duty" and honor.

What duty and honor there is in killing children under the altar of a God?

He's as crazy as the Mad Kind.

[yanmaodao]

I'm trying to imagine if there's any way this can happen in the books?

1. Stannis clearly doesn't give a shit about the red god or Azor Azai. So he's not going to burn Shireen for that. On the march to WF he tells his men that there will be no burning and for them to pray harder.

2. The geography. Either Shireen makes her way to Stannis or Stannis goes back. Stannis is not going back so it has to be the former but with winter well and truly coming I don't see that happening.

3. The WoW sample chapter has Stannis wanting Shireen to sit on the throne if he dies.

4. It takes a great deal of convincing, groveling and shoveling for him to decide to burn Edric. His daughter....

Probably something Azor Ahai-related, like awakening stone dragons.

[Ser Eric]

@draft0

Way to pick up quotes that suit your argument....

[Nefertari]

Well, Renly was a traitor and Stannis was in a different place, so those aren't excuses so much as statements of fact.

I have no real defense for show Stannis, unless he is AA and will save the entire world from a winter apocalypse.

IF Stannis was convinced of THAT then he had to catch him and making a process, or kill him in a real battle...or even admitting that he is behing Renly assassination ..

instead he did something to kill him in the dark...then he denies to have done anything ....

But as a matter of fact Renly wasn't a traitor at all, Robert gain the throne by battle, there is no sacrality in the throne anymore.

[Denam_Pavel]

Was this scene shocking? Yes. Contrary to his book characterization? Not really.

Stannis isn't as cold and calculating as he puts on. He was able to rationalise killing Renly cause he resented Renly. And Robert and his bastards. He was much more forgiving of Davos then the rest of his bannermen despite Davos disobeying him in all kinds of way because he liked Davos personally. I don't see it being all that different with Shireen.

[Biglose]

What really annoyes me is, that it will probably be again a pointless action there just tu vilify Stannis...

Melisandra's magic is doing SHIT. Other priests can ressurect people and do not have to burn other people.

[draft0]

Stannis spends all of ASOS deciding whether or not to burn Edric Storm. The pivotal moment:

Melisandre moved closer. “Save them, sire. Let me wake the stone dragons. Three is three. Give me the boy.”

“Edric Storm,” Davos said.

Stannis rounded on him in a cold fury. “I know his name. Spare me your reproaches. I like this no more than you do, but my duty is to the realm. My duty …” He turned back to Melisandre. “You swear there is no other way? Swear it on your life, for I promise, you shall die by inches if you lie.”

“You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.” Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing. “Give me this boy,” she whispered, “and I will give you your kingdom.”

“He can’t,” said Davos. “Edric Storm is gone.”

“Gone?” Stannis turned. “What do you mean, gone?”

Now, Davos conveniently interrupts Stannis, so we can't say what he actually decides to do here. However, his decision making process is clear. Stannis believes in the power of blood sacrifice. He'll use that power as long as 1) it's for the good of the realm and 2) there is no other way. If those conditions are met, Stannis is absolutely willing to sacrifice the life of an innocent child.

He would not be Stannis otherwise.

[Denam_Pavel]

Stannis spends all of ASOS deciding whether or not to burn Edric Storm. The pivotal moment:

Now, Davos conveniently interrupts Stannis, so we can't say what he actually decides to do here. However, his decision making process is clear. Stannis believes in the power of blood sacrifice. He'll use that power as long as 1) it's for the good of the realm and 2) there is no other way. If those conditions are met, Stannis is absolutely willing to sacrifice the life of an innocent child.

He would not be Stannis otherwise.

You're neglecting to mention that Davos bought time he needed because Stannis agreed that Melisandre can't be said to have gotten the job done until all three kings were dead. Show Stannis does not care. In the book Melisandre burned Alester Florent and this magic practically flew their ships to the wall. In the books nothing like that goes on. Book Stannis needed to be given a modicum of proof of the power of blood sacrifice. Show Stannis is an actual R'hllor fanatic in his own right.

[TheCasualObserver]

IF Stannis was convinced of THAT then he had to catch him and making a process, or kill him in a real battle...or even admitting that he is behing Renly assassination ..

instead he did something to kill him in the dark...then he denies to have done anything ....

But as a matter of fact Renly wasn't a traitor at all, Robert gain the throne by battle, there is no sacrality in the throne anymore.

We have no evidence that Stannis "did something to kill him in the dark" other than shag Melisandre; and we have no evidence that Stannis made that connection. Stannis believed wholeheartedly that Renly was a traitor. When Catelyn Stark says to Renly that Stannis has the stronger claim, Renly simply says "whilst he lives". Make of that what you will, but it clearly points to Renly appreciating that Stannis is closer to the throne and will kill him to keep him from it.

[The Red Pypar of Thorne]

There goes my dream of Stannis and Shireen conquering and ruling Westeros with The Power of Proper Grammar, Pronunciation and General Literacy :(

[apovsic]

Well shit

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

Why wouldn't Stannis put sentries round his camp? He's deep in hostile territory and marching to war.

D and D make every character a cretin.

He did have sentries, he ordered them questioned and executed right after it happened. They're just too busy starving and freezing to death to notice a handful of Northmen skulking around.

[draft0]

Stannis isn't as cold and calculating as he puts on. He was able to rationalise killing Renly cause he resented Renly. And Robert and his bastards. He was much more forgiving of Davos then the rest of his bannermen despite Davos disobeying him in all kinds of way because he liked Davos personally. I don't see it being all that different with Shireen.

This is true; Stannis will have to go to a very dark place if he's going to burn Shireen. But rationalization goes both ways. Stannis conceives of himself as a man who always does his "duty". A man who's willing to do what needs to be done, whatever it takes. I don't think Stannis can abandon that self-image easily.

[TheCasualObserver]

He did have sentries, he ordered them questioned and executed right after it happened. They're just too busy starving and freezing to death to notice a handful of Northmen skulking around.

Is that compelling for you? 20 men can cripple an army of 6000 "because the sentries were cold"? I don't think so.

[Ser Eric]

Are people forgetting what Stannis says in WoW? Really?

No way this happens in the books. Would be appalling and very inconsistent writing from GRRM if Stannis burns Shireen.

[Ser Harly of Southwell]

They actually did the unthinkable (D & D), they burnt Shireen.

Questions:

1. Did D & D screw this up?

Yes. It didn't flow logically from the episode where they had that huggy luvvy duvvy scene between Stannis and Shireen.

2. Did Stannis act out of character? (Book and Show Stannis)

Not so sure about out of book character, but I would say yes to the show Stannis.

3. Did Show Davos know or at least reasonably believe what was going to happen? Is this why he gave Shireen a present? Is this out of character for Davos to have not acted on his own and taken Shireen with him to Castle Black?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

4. Does this spoil a possible burning of book Shireen? If so, would book Stannis have done this? What would be the circumstances? What implications, if any, does this have for book Stannis?

I don't know. I'm still up in the air in regards to that prediction. It doesn't really seem that necessary. I don't know if book Stannis would have done this. I don't think it has any implications for book Stannis.

5. What now for Team Stannis in the show?

I'm done. I actually prefer team Dorne to show Stannis now. Still a loyalist to my Man Stan in the books.

6. Was this scene purely for shock value?

Of course.

[Ser Eric]

Also, can people tell me if the leeching happens in the books? And as an aside, if leeching works so effectively why burn?

[chris999]

They actually did the unthinkable (D & D), they burnt Shireen.

Questions:

1. Did D & D screw this up?

2. Did Stannis act out of character? (Book and Show Stannis)

3. Did Show Davos know or at least reasonably believe what was going to happen? Is this why he gave Shireen a present? Is this out of character for Davos to have not acted on his own and taken Shireen with him to Castle Black?

4. Does this spoil a possible burning of book Shireen? If so, would book Stannis have done this? What would be the circumstances? What implications, if any, does this have for book Stannis?

5. What now for Team Stannis in the show?

6. Was this scene purely for shock value?

1. Probably (I secretly hope so).

2. Book Stannis is no doubt out of character. If this really happens it is because Stannis is under a spell. He wouldnt consciously do it.

3. I think Davos was worried about it... but I think he never thought Stannis could really go through with it or he would have stolen Shireen in the night. Davos is a good man and I know he would rather die then watch what happened to that girl.

4. I hope GRRM did this as to NOT spoil the books. Surely he has something else in mind. Maybe Mel will do it instead.

5. By 'team Stannis' I assume you mean his army? Well there is power in kings blood. He will probably win his battle, but lose the war. Only half of Stannis' men follow the red god. The 'King's menfollow the Seven still IIRC, so I would expect them to mutiny after this. How could they support that?

6. Well it worked. I dont think I have ever seen anything so shocking on TV before. Holy shit!

[Denam_Pavel]

Also, can people tell me if the leeching happens in the books? And as an aside, if leeching works so effectively why burn?

It does happen in the books (just without the sex teasing) And leeching only killed three guys, and took referal months to do it. it's not gonna change the weather or win a battle decided between thousands.

[draft0]

You're neglecting to mention that Davos bought time he needed because Stannis agreed that Melisandre can't be said to have gotten the job done until all three kings were dead. Show Stannis does not care. In the book Melisandre burned Alester Florent and this magic practically flew their ships to the wall. In the books nothing like that goes on. Book Stannis needed to be given a modicum of proof of the power of blood sacrifice. Show Stannis is an actual R'hllor fanatic in his own right.

All three kings were dead at the time this scene takes place. Stannis is fully convinced of the power of king's blood. He doesn't doubt its efficacy, he only questions whether it's "the only way." I'm not sure what your point about Alester Florent or R'hllor is.