(Book Spoilers) Mannis 2 Society: Burning Anxiety

[Hand to King Davos]

It seems out of character for book Stannis, mainly because:

1) he hasn't burned Asha.

2) he hasn't burned anyone.

For both show and book however, Stannis has shown that he is willing to make a choice for what he believes is the greater good. It is one of the reasons why I liked him from the beginning, because he is willing to make a sacrifice for what he believes to be true. This could be just the unfortunate result of that, and it shows why choosing "the greater good" is not the more moral option.

I think if it happens in the book, I will be furious because it doesn't make sense. The only exception is if it happens because Stannis is trying to save the realm from the WW, not trying to get to Winterfell. The reason he burned Shireen, moreso than the fact that he did, is what upsets me the most.

I don't think Davos knew for sure, but I think he knew it might. I think that he convinced himself that Stannis didn't mean to burn his daughter, especially given the "My family stays with me." That doesn't seem like a line from a man about to burn his only child. I convinced myself this couldn't happen, even though it almost makes sense, so I can't blame him for that. Gendry, he knew what was coming. Here he wasn't sure.

I do think this scene was partly for the shock value, but I also think they had enough shock in these episodes. They didn't need this, especially because it removes a potential hero. Also, I am convinced they will need some goodwill stored up for the Walk of Shame, plus For the Watch, and this was a bad way to get it.

[Truly Just Man]

Stannis haters are having a field day today. Atleast someone is having fun.

My thoughts exactly.

[Faydra]

They cleary do (having a field day).

With so much melancholy I remember fighting here on the forums stan-stans just a few years ago. Back then I was stuggling to make them see that their character is morally bankput and now I can barely keep myself from going to the general forums and making an irrelevant "Told You" thread. I nee(eee)d meditation.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

They cleary do (having a field day).

With so much melancholy I remember fighting here on the forums stan-stans just a few years ago. Back then I was stuggling to make them see that their character is morally bankput and now I can barely keep myself from going to the general forums and making an irrelevant "Told You" thread. I nee(eee)d meditation.

Well thank you to you, atleast you are not contributing to the toxicity.

[TheCasualObserver]

They cleary do (having a field day).

With so much melancholy I remember fighting here on the forums stan-stans just a few years ago. Back then I was stuggling to make them see that their character is morally bankput and now I can barely keep myself from going to the general forums and making an irrelevant "Told You" thread. I nee(eee)d meditation.

Not to belabor a point, but this is Stannis' "moral event horizon", as in the point at which he crosses the line into villainy. As tough and unpleasant as he is (and as unlike his literary counterpart as he is) prior decisions by Stannis can be defended. Then again, if he truly is AA then he will lead mankind to victory over the white walkers and the sacrifice of his Nissa Nissa will be the necessary price to pay.

At least, that's something to root for, if the theme of great sacrifice one which D and D follow through on. (Hint: they won't, this is all for the shock factor)

[Faydra]

Except he isn't any hero. Dany (AA), Bran (LH) and Jon (TPtwP) are the three headed dragon and when this gets confirmed I'm really making that told you thread.

[H.P.]

They actually did the unthinkable (D & D), they burnt Shireen.

Questions:

1. Did D & D screw this up?

2. Did Stannis act out of character? (Book and Show Stannis)

3. Did Show Davos know or at least reasonably believe what was going to happen? Is this why he gave Shireen a present? Is this out of character for Davos to have not acted on his own and taken Shireen with him to Castle Black?

4. Does this spoil a possible burning of book Shireen? If so, would book Stannis have done this? What would be the circumstances? What implications, if any, does this have for book Stannis?

5. What now for Team Stannis in the show?

6. Was this scene purely for shock value?

1. No-ish. They made me hate Stannis, which in a way can be seen as a screw-up, because now there are fewer people to route for. Before this, I was sort of an equal fan of Stannis, Dany, Jon, etc. Not anymore.

On the other hand, one of the major strengths of this saga is that one can never predict what will happen. And this was one of those things which before it happened had people thinking: "That will never happen." So kudos to D&D for not letting us settle in.

2. Nope. Stannis is all about sacrificing stuff for the greater good.

3. Nope on all accounts.

4. Maybe. He will in that case do it for the same reason as in the show: Mel convinces him it's necessary for the greater good. I can't really bring myself to imagine the circumstances, but since Mel's magic often seems to work, I assume that one of the implications will be that Stannis will be helped in some what.

5. I guess they will defeate the Boltons. Davos will possibly leave Stannis. Maybe take the Black?

6. No, I think there was more to it. For example, solidify the idea that Stannis will do anything for the greater good. And possibly cause a rift between Davos and Stannis (seeing how close the two are, it would need something like this to cause that to happen). Which of course brings the question: What will be the implications of Davos leaving Stannis?

My five cents. I'm no expert by any means.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Davos knew something was up. That's why he asked to take Shireen. And Stannis sent Davos because he knew Davos would put up a huge resistance. That relationship is over now.

[Bran's Legs]

I guess

I guess we'll just have to read a little further. It's not like people can't move during the space between chapters.

I'm still a fan of Stannis. Duty/love is always a hard choice. Burning alive is a bit harsh but so is ordering a few thousand men to die in a battle.

Uh, not the same thing. Not even close.

[Kyoshi]

Stannis haters are having a field day today. Atleast someone is having fun.

I don't even remotely like Stannis, not even a little bit, but even I thought that was poorly done. It just doesn't make sense.

EDIT: But I can't help bust say I told you so...the show is not canon. People took Dany burning a random slaver as proof of her going mad. But are now willing to dismiss the show because Sansa and Stannis were butchered. I can't help but say I told you so.

[Bran's Legs]

Not to belabor a point, but this is Stannis' "moral event horizon", as in the point at which he crosses the line into villainy. As tough and unpleasant as he is (and as unlike his literary counterpart as he is) prior decisions by Stannis can be defended. Then again, if he truly is AA then he will lead mankind to victory over the white walkers and the sacrifice of his Nissa Nissa will be the necessary price to pay.

At least, that's something to root for, if the theme of great sacrifice one which D and D follow through on. (Hint: they won't, this is all for the shock factor)

True, there has to be a point to all this. If the Shireen died in vain to prove some point about the dangers of fanaticism I'm going to be pissed.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

True, there has to be a point to all this. If the Shireen died in vain to prove some point about the dangers of fanaticism I'm going to be pissed.

I think you're gonna be disappointed then.

[ummester]

True, there has to be a point to all this. If the Shireen died in vain to prove some point about the dangers of fanaticism I'm going to be pissed.

The story isn't finished. I'm pretty sure everyone is going to have a moral event horizon in this saga, everyone is going to become a monster - I think that is they type of story that is being told, one that has us having to decide on which monster we dislike least by the conclusion. but we shall see.

[Guest]

I do not believe the writers damaged or changed Stannis' character, at least in this one instance.

Basically, in Stannis' mind it's like this:

Let Shireen live now, satisfies everyone short term, long term everyone dies, INCLUDING Shireen, because he won't be able to stop the Others.

Burn Shireen now, she suffers, he suffers, Selyse suffers, long term the realm is saved.

He's basically weighing her life against the entire realm, and thinking "I burned all those people, I lead all these soldiers to their deaths, if I am not willing to endure this then I am not a worthy king."

I'm not saying it was a good or right thing to do, but Stannis has always been a cold, logic driven character. And in his mind he is doing a cold equation, he's holding one life up against the rest of the realm and measuring.

I was more surprised by Davos rolling out without any word to Shireen on what was happening. The only thing I can think is that he entertained the notion for a moment, but dismissed it as being something Stannis could not or would not do. Like he didn't want to think too closely about it and decided that it just wouldn't happen.

The whole series Stannis has been burning people because Mel told him to. I was not surprised by this turn of events.

Though, I do admit I briefly held out hope that he would pull Shireen out of the fire and step on himself, commanding his army to follow her. I know it was ridiculous but I still hoped that might happen instead (Stannis is a king after all).

What's going to make this even worse is, I think it will all be for nothing, and the Boltons will crush them.

[The Red Pypar of Thorne]

I would've been fine with this whole Abraham's dillema, but the stakes (no pun intended) didn't seem nearly high enough to justify such a horrific act.

[Ser Eric]

I do not believe the writers damaged or changed Stannis' character, at least in this one instance.

Basically, in Stannis' mind it's like this:

Let Shireen live now, satisfies everyone short term, long term everyone dies, INCLUDING Shireen, because he won't be able to stop the Others.

Burn Shireen now, she suffers, he suffers, Selyse suffers, long term the realm is saved.

He's basically weighing her life against the entire realm, and thinking "I burned all those people, I lead all these soldiers to their deaths, if I am not willing to endure this then I am not a worthy king."

I'm not saying it was a good or right thing to do, but Stannis has always been a cold, logic driven character. And in his mind he is doing a cold equation, he's holding one life up against the rest of the realm and measuring.

People keep saying this but this was Stannis' response to burning:

"I will have no burnings. Pray harder"

He's not ready to burn random prisoners in his camp and he would be ready to burn Shireen? Ok then.

[Guest]

People keep saying this but this was Stannis' response to burning:

"I will have no burnings. Pray harder"

He's not ready to burn random prisoners in his camp and he would be ready to burn Shireen? Ok then.

He was okay with burning his wife's family, murdering his brother, burning Mance. If I remember correctly in the books he was burning alot of different people for refusing the fire god and also considering burning Theon too (if I recall the new chapter correctly).

Plus, at this point, Stannis has been to the wall. He knows Mel is not b.s. ing him about the Others, the Night's Watch can vouch for that. The dead are coming. And they are coming in such horrible numbers with so much power that the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is joining forces with the WILDLINGs.

Now he is stranded in the middle of the North, winter is upon him and the dead are coming all the while. Seems like a tipping point to me.

[The Red Pypar of Thorne]

People keep saying this but this was Stannis' response to burning:

"I will have no burnings. Pray harder"

He's not ready to burn random prisoners in his camp and he would be ready to burn Shireen? Ok then.

Yep, show blood magic seems a bit week, if you ask me. In the book burning some random a-holes would have been enough to tweak weather a bit. Burning a person of King's blood was suposed to work miracles like awakening stone dragons and whatnot, right?

[Ser Eric]

He was okay with burning his wife's family, murdering his brother, burning Mance. If I remember correctly in the books he was burning alot of different people for refusing the fire god and also considering burning Theon too (if I recall the new chapter correctly).

Plus, at this point, Stannis has been to the wall. He knows Mel is not b.s. ing him about the Others, the Night's Watch can vouch for that. The dead are coming. And they are coming in such horrible numbers with so much power that the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is joining forces with the WILDLINGs.

Now he is stranded in the middle of the North, winter is upon him and the dead are coming all the while. Seems like a tipping point to me.

He was in war with his brother.

It's debatable whether Stannis burned Mance. Regardless, Mance was sentenced to death given he betrayed his vows.

His wife's uncle tried to betray him.

Stannis did not burn people for refusing the fire god! Otherwise he would have ended up burning half his army including his hand. He burned guilty people.

He reached the tipping point in DwD. And yet refused to burn anyone who was not guilty.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Yep, show blood magic seems a bit week, if you ask me. In the book burning some random a-holes would have been enough to tweak weather a bit. Burning a person of King's blood was suposed to work miracles like awakening stone dragons and whatnot, right?

Burning a King (Mance) did ZERO for them. Why would burning a child? (Obviously not talking books here)