Ben H'gahr Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 The way the showed Dorne it is almost equivalent to leaving Dorne out IMO but maybe I'm just a bad pussy hateful bitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowKitteh Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Jon will have the same fate in the show, as he does in the books. It is known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Knight Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Not I get what you are saying: It would be surprising if Jon was dead since it would be surprising that GRRM uses the same old trick over and over again, which is not his style / does not correspond to his quality of writing? Please correct me if I am again wrong.[Partially. What I'm saying is that he is using it again but he is cheating by bringing him back. I love GRRM's writing but let's face it, he's human. It's got to be tough to continually crank out material on par with with the first three novels. IMHO, his first three books were amazing because he kept up the pace and momentum. There weren't many real, cheesy cliffhangers and you usually got closure pretty quickly. But I really think he got bogged down in the last two with a bunch of new characters and story lines I really wasn't interested in.] You also mention the "rooting for" and "investing" problem: I get it but I think it is dangerous insofar that GRRM likes to challenge the reader with "non-conventional narrative patterns" like killing those the usual reader would root for.On the other hand, GRRM likes underdogs (Tyrion, Varys are best examples - best juxtaposed to "Highschool-Football-Captain"-type of guys in the books like Jaime, Robb Stark and King Robert), Jon Snow being clearly an "underdog" since he is a bastard and his ... let's call it very progressive approach to being LC.IMO in case of Jon Snow this is double-sided in the fact that people "rooted for" him (hence he is subject to GRRM's killing spree) but he is also an underdog (hence he falls into the category of GRRM has a particular interest in) - so I see that both could happen (survival in any way and form / non-survival).[i agree but I liked Rob Stark and was very much invested in his cause.] But then your argument of GRRM not playing the same card over and over again comes into play and also Jon's role in the story so far: I don't think he is done yet, there must be more to him than just bringing the wildlings over and preparing for the Other's attack. Just ask yourself if this was the whole job of his character, why depicting him from the beginning on, letting him go through all sorts of "character building events" and create a mystery about his parentage? Killing him off now would be sh*t storytelling. The northern retribution for the lost Starks:I also agree here. It's about damn time. Especially in the show they have been kicked too hard IMO. [Agreed here as well. The thing is it seems like he really dislikes Starks! :D] And here I wholeheartedly agree with you! Afaik the Dorne-storyline was already perceived critically in the books. In the show, the Dorne-plot had terrible terrible terrible writing and acting - srsly, I thought a 2nd Year College English Literature Major could have written more interesting dialogues.The Riverlandsplot is, IMO, much more interesting and also more relevant from a "strategic" perspective. I think D&D wanted to get the North as a fraction in the war out of the way.[Yes, let's go back to the river lands and pick up the story there, as close as possible now to what GRRM wrote. I enjoy the show but really don't like how much D&D have butchered and ignored the northern aspect of the series.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben H'gahr Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Yeah - they portrayd the Northmen as a bunch of p*ssies who get slaughtered while they had one beer to much :tantrum: - NOT ACCURATE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Morghulis Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 What I can completely see happening in the show....Jon is bought back by Melisandre (maybe with help from bran or warg ghost. But unlikely) reveals the mutiny to other supportive nights watch brothers, overthrows the 999th Lord commander, re elected 1000th Lord commander. Merges with wildlings, receives pink letter. Marches on winter fell, overthrows the boltons. (Bolton banners burning) that's as far as I got. The 998th LC, an unusual number but could be significant because Thorne will be 999th and the one after will be the big 1000th... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Knight Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Yeah - they portrayd the Northmen as a bunch of p*ssies who get slaughtered while they had one beer to much :tantrum: - NOT ACCURATE!You're right on the money! Does the north really remember? You'd never know it from watching the show! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben H'gahr Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 So Thorne will be LC for 1 day until he gets Patrek-ified by WunWun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben H'gahr Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 You're right on the money! Does the north really remember? You'd never know it from watching the show! I read somewhere the North should change its motto to "The North vaguely recalls" or "The North slightly reminiscents" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Knight Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I read somewhere the North should change its motto to "The North vaguely recalls" or "The North slightly reminiscents"Sorry, double post. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Knight Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I read somewhere the North should change its motto to "The North vaguely recalls" or "The North slightly reminiscents"ROTFLMAO!! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visceral Varys Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I read somewhere the North should change its motto to "The North vaguely recalls" or "The North slightly reminiscents"LOL!The North is old, mild dementia wouldn't be unheard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Watcher_On_The_Walls Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I don't what Mel reviving Jon. After what she did to Shireen do we really want her to be the saviour of Jon. I don't want Jon to die. Jon should be hurt please please please. I think now is the perfect time for her to revive him. She doesn't think she's doing/done anything wrong, until now I guess. Mel believes she's serving the god that's gonna save humanity. She's not inherently evil, she's just a bit of a fuck up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo Kressh Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 So Thorne will be LC for 1 day until he gets Patrek-ified by WunWun :agree: And someone in another thread suggested that Wun Wun should punt Olly over the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Morghulis Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 DD and GRRM have always insisted that they will end the show and books in much the same way, but on the whole history of Jon and his parentage and destiny, the books have deviated wildly from the show, as the show has had almost no build up to it whatsoever and I wonder why GRRM has not insisted on more back story in the show to expand on Jon's character and make him more dimensional and interesting and to also help credibly set up the resurrection later. Thus in the books it seems certain he will return but in the show he could easily be killed off as he is just a simple good guy, like Ned, but who has a fatal flaw, he is too kind and too honest, witness the ludicrous and naïve admission that he killed Mance at Hardhome and so needed Tormund to save him, and the Night's Watch have some justification for killing a leader that is too naïve and cannot be fully trusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben H'gahr Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 DD and GRRM have always insisted that they will end the show and books in much the same way, but on the whole history of Jon and his parentage and destiny, the books have deviated wildly from the show, as the show has had almost no build up to it whatsoever and I wonder why GRRM has not insisted on more back story in the show to expand on Jon's character and make him more dimensional and interesting and to also help credibly set up the resurrection later. a: yesterday somebody posted a link of an interview in which GRRM said that he has 12 main characters and that for some the ending in the show will be the same as in the books but not for all of them. I sincerely hope JS is among those whose ending is more or less the same like in the books (personally, my reasoning why Jon should survive is based on the books rather than the show). b: I think he has less creative control over the show than people usually assume. Despite being a Co-Executive Producer it appears to me that he functions more like a consultant to D&D when they maneuvered themselves into sth. Thus in the books it seems certain he will return but in the show he could easily be killed off as he is just a simple good guy, like Ned, but who has a fatal flaw, he is too kind and too honest, witness the ludicrous and naïve admission that he killed Mance at Hardhome and so needed Tormund to save him, and the Night's Watch have some justification for killing a leader that is too naïve and cannot be fully trusted. I agree - I also think the kill of Jon b/c they somehow think that this speeds up the plot. Gods forbid, I hope D&D don't do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Morghulis Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Ah, that is interesting, that he says not all will have the same fate. I think in the first couple of seasons D and D were so in thrall to GRRM that they would not do anything too radical from GRRM's vision but as the show has gotten bigger and the demands of TV, ratings and expectation have grown they will have to deviate more and more and maybe the Jon story will be one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben H'gahr Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 IMHO the best for the demands of TV, ratings and expectations is to leave the story (as closely as reasonably possible) to the original. No offense but I thin GRRM is a better storyteller than D&D.But maybe that's too ambitious given the ... intellectual capabilities and sense for art of the common TV-watching person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadow282 Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 But maybe that's too ambitious given the ... intellectual capabilities and sense for art of the common TV-watching person. :ack: :bang: :dunce: They've said that the ending will be the same, and Jon is one of the "Big 3" character. There's no way they can reach the same ending without him. So whatever happens in the book will happen in the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben H'gahr Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 :ack: :bang: :dunce: They've said that the ending will be the same, and Jon is one of the "Big 3" character. There's no way they can reach the same ending without him. So whatever happens in the book will happen in the show. Chillout. I think so too but I learnt not to trust D&D. Also, GRRM himself said that some of the characters in the story will have different endings in the show and in the books - so at least formally there is the chance for a different ending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarkofWinterfell Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Jon is done. He said so himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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