Fate of Jon Snow might differ from Books

[Ser Bucket the Voluminous]

I think Kit's probably just following his contract. I mean his resurrection would have to be a surprise, and if he gave any indication whatsoever that he would be back next season then it would spoil it. It's not like writers/directors/actors are always honest in interviews. Look at Star Trek Into Darkness; they flat out told us Khan was not the villain and then whaddayknow! It's Khan.

So yeah, I wouldn't take anything Harrington says about his role seriously. Remember, even if he does come back he can't say he does.

[R4W13Y]

I think there might be a language barrier, because I find your English a little difficult to understand at times. So this might partially be why we are butting heads.

Let's clear up some assumptions you seem to have about my arguments:

• I was providing examples of Wall storyline possibilities as a counterpoint to those who said there's no way the Wall story will continue.

• These examples I brought up are not necessarily what I think will happen or what I will hope happen.

I agree with you that Jon not coming back shouldn't happen.

I believe Jon is coming back in the books in some way.

I do not hold any assumptions about what Jon's role in the show or the books are.

I think if D&D really did kill off Jon and he is still alive in the books it is the stupidest decision they've made thus far.

I am only saying that I believe the multiple interviews from multiple sources that have come out regarding Kit returning for the show next season.

Everything else is just me trying to figure out where they will go from here if he is indeed dead.

Now to respond to your other points:

• I work in the hard sciences and in a medical field, believe me, I have a working knowledge of statistics and value them highly. I never claimed that I knew the statistical evidence or had proof and data of how many viewers are casual viewers. I absolutely owned the fact that it was an assumption I was making based on other fandoms. We both have competing anecdotal evidence, so there's no point in discussing this anymore unless we get data that confirms one point or the other.

I don't think saying "Jon is lying there in the snow, stabbed and losing blood and looks to be dead" is a hesitation of any kind. I also don't think it gives away his resurrection. I think most people would say "hmm, sounds like he is dead, but we will see?" and is that such a bad thing for audiences to assume?

I don't get why they would be so obsessed with making sure everyone thinks he is 100% dead when the show alone did a good enough job of that already.

Plus, if the people, as you said, are reading these interviews thinking "damn, he really is dead" it's likely then they might seek out further answers and get spoiled by book readers, or follow the production and like, 2 months later find out Kit is back on set? So like, I really don't get the point of the interviews if they are lying because it really accomplishes nothing.

I think the R+L=J clues on the show can be chalked up to Easter eggs if they never decide to go back to those or follow-up.

I think it's stupid if they don't follow up on R+L=J.

I think they can still follow-up on R+L=J (albeit probably unsuccessfully and unsatisfactorily) with Jon dead, through the reasons I've already stated earlier in the thread.

I think the books are totally separate from the show and if Jon is dead on the show then he can still be alive in the books. So your argument about GRRM putting importance on R+L=J in the books and thus it must mean so on the show doesn't really convince me personally :dunno:

I think it's possible D&D did want to keep Jon and resurrect him at the beginning of the show's production, but I don't think it's unreasonable to assume they could have changed their minds.

Again, I think it's stupid to have Jon dead. I think D&D are making a huge mistake if this is true. I am just choosing to take them at their word in their interviews until I hear otherwise. I will be the first one to be ecstatic if it proves they were lying, but until then, I have to believe they are telling the truth.

[R4W13Y]

It might be true that he won't come back next but we might see him in the 7th season... You know nothing :) Its not just a coincidence that Mel left Stannis and entered Castle Black before he got stabbed...

I never claimed to know anything :) I just believe the three sources that have come out and said he's gone, that's all :)

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

If Jon is resurrected (and I think this likely, but not definitive) he couldn't have any role to play in the NW.

"Hey, I thought we killed you!"

He would have to move on a take some other role.

[United Essos]

I never claimed to know anything :) I just believe the three sources that have come out and said he's gone, that's all :)

No, I was not thinking on you when I said that.. It was said in general to all.. So yes, a language barrier might be possible as English is my 4th language..

Well assuming, and saying ˝I guarantee you˝ without any statistics doesn't seem very mathematical... Other than that, i still think the interview was a kind of a language play, or a direct lie... We'll both see what will happen..

Continuing this conversation has no point as we both ˝assume˝ certain things will or will not happen.. I was just stating reasons why the should bring him on, while you believe that is the stupidest thing ever.. I kinda don't believe they are so stupid..

But again, we might be both right in a way...

Winds of Winter should come first, before the season 6.. And I won't be reading it until I don't find out here if he is alive..

Another theory that I was thinking of is, Jon's body might be taken out in the north or even some might hide his body in the cells build inside the wall to preserve him.. So he won't be with us in the next season, but might come back in a great style at season 7 with the red, glowing, flaming lightbringer in his hand

[R4W13Y]

No, I was not thinking on you when I said that.. It was said in general to all.. So yes, a language barrier might be possible as English is my 4th language..

Well assuming, and saying ˝I guarantee you˝ without any statistics doesn't seem very mathematical... Other than that, i still think the interview was a kind of a language play, or a direct lie... We'll both see what will happen..

Continuing this conversation has no point as we both ˝assume˝ certain things will or will not happen.. I was just stating reasons why the should bring him on, while you believe that is the stupidest thing ever.. I kinda don't believe they are so stupid..

But again, we might be both right in a way...

Winds of Winter should come first, before the season 6.. And I won't be reading it until I don't find out here if he is alive..

Another theory that I was thinking of is, Jon's body might be taken out in the north or even some might hide his body in the cells build inside the wall to preserve him.. So he won't be with us in the next season, but might come back in a great style at season 7 with the red, glowing, flaming lightbringer in his hand

Sorry, since you were talking to me previously and you said "you" which seemed singular, it seemed directed at me.

So since I work with statistics and in research, I'm not allowed to ever make assumptions, even if I'm open and forthright about them being assumptions and don't try to pass them off as facts? Sorry, but, no. I will speculate and theorize to my hearts content.

"I guarantee you" in this context is a theory or a bet, not a proven point. It's a phrase commonly used in that way. I meant it in the sense of "I bet you most are casual viewers who don't read interviews" not "Definitely 100% most people are casual viewers without a doubt no matter what" but we are arguing semantics now.

I think they should bring him on for next season too. We are in agreement on that. No need to belabor that point any longer.

I agree that maybe they could bring him back in Season 7, but they won't have Kit under contract for it and he's becoming quite famous and popular and already has a lot of projects lined up, so hopefully if that's their plan they will inform him of it soon and get him to verbally agree to come back.

[R4W13Y]

Have Elio and Linda commented on this?

[whikjik]

If Jon is resurrected (and I think this likely, but not definitive) he couldn't have any role to play in the NW.

"Hey, I thought we killed you!"

He would have to move on a take some other role.

You make a good argument against resurrecting Jon. Why resurrect him at all instead of 'finding' another descent person to fill that new role?

[CerseiStark]

In the show, I think D&D will have him clearly die for the greater shock value and then revive him. Why else would they make such a point of having Melisandre meet Thoros and Beric?

Because they took LS out, which in retrospect after seeing the finale - was a good idea, as much as I would have personally liked her.

They had to make sure the seeds of resurrection were well-planted. That was the reason for the LS character in the middle books - to remind people "Oh yeah, resurrections happen". Instead on the show they make sure people made the connection between Melisandre and the Brotherhood sharing the same God but didn't bash it over the head with LS, which is how it would have come cross on television like that. They skipped the middleman.

If they had done LS, it would have come across very gimmicky on the show if they indeed are going to do the same thing to Jon - it would have been "OH, which Stark comes back to life this season..." because we are only talking a short few seasons ago versus having to hope that people remembered from 4 books and thousands of pages of book earlier what happened to one minor character. This is one of those things that are becoming obvious as time goes on - this isn't just some fling of darts on a dart board for fun changes, they are changing things very intentionally yet I believe when all is said and done we will find very similar ends.

[Rider14]

Guns don't kill people, GRRM kills people. He might just be dead, because that's how GRRM writes.

I still think Jon has a role to play, but you never know.

My new theory is Ghost drags him to a safe spot where he freezes, where his body will stay until the white walkers breach the wall.

[JonAhai]

All I know is if Kit doesn't come back to play Jon, like if they have him warg into a different person, I'm done. I'll be rooting for the WW from her on.

[Mihai Brasoveanu]

Maybe this has been sent before, there are too many posts to be sure. My feeling when reading the books was "Jon's not going to die". And I didn't have any doubts about it. When the Red Wedding happened, that was a blow to the guts, didn't see it coming, knew it can't be changed for the better. But this, no reaction. I was just "let's see how he gets out of it in the next one".

My point is: Jon's book arc clearly makes you believe he's going to survive. However, the Jon's show arc clearly makes you believe he's dead. This has got to be the best PR stunt in all TV history.

[Woman of War]

Because they took LS out, which in retrospect after seeing the finale - was a good idea, as much as I would have personally liked her.

They had to make sure the seeds of resurrection were well-planted. That was the reason for the LS character in the middle books - to remind people "Oh yeah, resurrections happen". Instead on the show they make sure people made the connection between Melisandre and the Brotherhood sharing the same God but didn't bash it over the head with LS, which is how it would have come cross on television like that. They skipped the middleman.

If they had done LS, it would have come across very gimmicky on the show if they indeed are going to do the same thing to Jon - it would have been "OH, which Stark comes back to life this season..." because we are only talking a short few seasons ago versus having to hope that people remembered from 4 books and thousands of pages of book earlier what happened to one minor character. This is one of those things that are becoming obvious as time goes on - this isn't just some fling of darts on a dart board for fun changes, they are changing things very intentionally yet I believe when all is said and done we will find very similar ends.

And even when reading I thought - and some friends thought the same - that all those resurrections and presumed dead cheapen the impact of death in the books. He got killled? Don't worry! Benjen/Sandor/Jon will be back.(the neverending joke: Totally Headless Ned will be next to show up) and, honestly, better Jon be alive than Sandor or Benjen, they cannot all come back. I loved "Les Revenants" ;) but I think it is a good thing that they did not overuse resurrection in the show.

Death is the ultimate tragedy and narcissistic wound of mankind, there is nothing to mitigate, so Jon should be the only one.

[JonSnowed]

One of our more respectable UK papers (The Independent or Guardian) ran a poll as to whether Jon will be back or not next season the result was 82% believe he will be, I've also asked three unsullied or partially sullied friends and two book readers all say yes he will or many will stop with the books/show completely.

In response to earlier threads I also never believe Jon would be gone for good from the books, in the show I am 50/50 but I genuinely don't see them not following George's path here unless by some freak event his resurrection is extremely short lived.

[Masha]

The show doesn't have to follow books storyline exactly just some parts of it.

The end result - bring him back to life in same condition as in the books. While books might go complicated way to get to that point, show can simplify it and arrive at same result.

Books provide at least 3+ ways to do so: 1) Warging to Ghost, 2) Have Melisandre do her thing 3) Resurrection through Night King/Others power 4) additional ways: Fire resurrection - more Dany less Melly, Bran/Greenseer/Tree magics

Books also provide background where Jon is an established gifted though untrained Warg, Wargs can swap bodies with their familiar at time of death. Example of LS as a BAD result of resurrection thru R'lhor magics, nothing on Night Kings power - if he only does the Wights/Zombies or actual thinking Others resurrection, Bran/Tree magic is far more established as sustaining life aka - Bloodraven.

Show only allows for barely 2 ways of resurrection 1) Melly and 2) Night King and possibly they might established Bran magic as very substantial in first few episodes before doing resurrection.

Furthermore, in the show we only have example of Thoros and Beric and they established as altogether normal Robyn Hood types, though Beric is more of "I am so tired" type. No drawbacks as lack of emotions and fixation on revenge that Lady Stoneheart brought in as a warning in the books. Night King resurrection is 100% mindless zombies rate.

So while in the books, GRRM has plethora of mix match ways to bring Jon back to life and keep his sanity - by having him Warg to Ghost to keep his soul while his body will mucked about by Melly/NightKing/Bran/Fire/etc the show really has 1 way to bring him back to life - thru Melisandre and no LS to give warning that it might be BAD.

[Green Knight]

I don't think the resurrection is the "gimmicky" factor here. Imho, I think the killing of yet another major character is. It was fresh and unexpected when Ned lost his head. Then the red wedding massacre was shocking and a surprise, but by now it's getting old.

Incidentally I have no doubt Jon will be back in the book and in the show. The surprise would be if he was really gone. . .

[The other prince]

i don't think that is likely at all. It would be a very ambigous hero that only is [re] alive becuase of the fiery death of a young girl.

there are plenty on anti-heros in this book series, but it seems that Jon Snow is the only true hero. Martin would be an ass to make his existence contingent on the Red Priestess's sorcery.

I'm not sure Martin is the type to go for a "True" hero as you put it. He has been pretty careful to include faults in his characters.

My fear is with the shows tendency to combine characters and tweak the plot so that other characters end up completing different story lines is that they take Jon's role from the book and have it completed by a newly introduced Aegon. I don't think they are going that direction but it would allow them to actually kill Jon and still have his part in the plot filled.

[Masha]

I'm not sure Martin is the type to go for a "True" hero as you put it. He has been pretty careful to include faults in his characters.

My fear is with the shows tendency to combine characters and tweak the plot so that other characters end up completing different story lines is that they take Jon's role from the book and have it completed by a newly introduced Aegon. I don't think they are going that direction but it would allow them to actually kill Jon and still have his part in the plot filled.

I'd have to say its even worse idea than replacing Kit with another actor as "Jon". At very least Jon Snow is an established main character, introducing a brand new character as a main "good side" hero with zero backstory at the end run of the series, its pretty bad storytelling. I mean, it will be a new low for D&D, even after Sansa, Stannis and Dorne debacles.

You might have noticed, that while Aegon came out of nowhere in the books, he never had a POV, therefore, his fate is to be a spaceholder for Dany in Westeros, provide actual charismatic opposition to Dany (instead VS evil slavers) or possible suitor to Sansa (to do a parallel with Rhaegar /Lyanna storyline there). He either ends up dying or marrying Sansa. I will be extremely surprised if he lives thru the last book and NOT be married to Sansa.

I suspect its one of the reasons that D&D didn't bother with his story. He is a expandable spaceholder for Dany while GRRM wrestled with his "Maureenese knot"

[The other prince]

And even when reading I thought - and some friends thought the same - that all those resurrections and presumed dead cheapen the impact of death in the books. He got killled? Don't worry! Benjen/Sandor/Jon will be back.(the neverending joke: Totally Headless Ned will be next to show up) and, honestly, better Jon be alive than Sandor or Benjen, they cannot all come back. I loved "Les Revenants" ;) but I think it is a good thing that they did not overuse resurrection in the show.

Death is the ultimate tragedy and narcissistic wound of mankind, there is nothing to mitigate, so Jon should be the only one.

Well there has already been Beric, so that would make Jon the second.

@Masha I completely agree with you except for the Sansa + Aegon part (I'm not saying it isn't possible just that I haven't seen anything to suggest it.). I don't foresee them doing something like that with Aegon taking on Jon's role, but after Dorne I can't help but be a little nervous.

[Masha]

Well there has already been Beric, so that would make Jon the second.

@Masha I completely agree with you except for the Sansa + Aegon part (I'm not saying it isn't possible just that I haven't seen anything to suggest it.). I don't foresee them doing something like that with Aegon taking on Jon's role, but after Dorne I can't help but be a little nervous.

Frankly speaking, I also think its the least likely possibility as well. However, its been going around the board ever since Alayne sample chapter release by GRRM, as the tournament with Stark lady and possible Targ prince nearby in Stormlands who just might crush the party, it does provide a nice parallel to the Harrenhal Tourney where Rhaegar and Lyanna met.

Otherwise, there is no possible way for f(Aegon) to survive the books, especially if its proven that he is the real deal. That kind of thing is just asking for horrible death from GRRM!!! LOL!