Fate of Jon Snow might differ from Books

[Ben H'gahr]

I don't think the resurrection is the "gimmicky" factor here. Imho, I think the killing of yet another major character is. It was fresh and unexpected when Ned lost his head. Then the red wedding massacre was shocking and a surprise, but by now it's getting old.

Incidentally I have no doubt Jon will be back in the book and in the show. The surprise would be if he was really gone. . .

Aren't you contradicting yourself? First you mention that "killing the major character" (Ned) was "fresh and unexpected", same/RW and then that the real surprise "would be if he is really gone"?? Maybe I'm just missing someting.

IMO that's one possible reason why Jon might be coming back: b/c we are used to "losing" beloved/popular characters but not to having them revived - and eventually changed. The whole Beric/Thoros-story just prepares the reader for this so that it is less Deux Ex Machine.

[baxter]

At this point I pretty much expect Melisandre to sacrifice herself to raise Jon at the Wall in the show. In the book I suspect she'll use Shireen after they hear that Stannis is dead.

Jon will survive in some capacity - the question will be what type of person is Jon post stabbing. Beric changed every revival, I assume if he is in Ghost for some time he'll be a little different (as the prologue notes will happen the longer you stay in the wolf)

[Green Knight]

Aren't you contradicting yourself? First you mention that "killing the major character" (Ned) was "fresh and unexpected", same/RW and then that the real surprise "would be if he is really gone"?? Maybe I'm just missing someting.

IMO that's one possible reason why Jon might be coming back: b/c we are used to "losing" beloved/popular characters but not to having them revived - and eventually changed. The whole Beric/Thoros-story just prepares the reader for this so that it is less Deux Ex Machine.

Aren't you contradicting yourself? First you mention that "killing the major character" (Ned) was "fresh and unexpected", same/RW and then that the real surprise "would be if he is really gone"?? Maybe I'm just missing someting.

IMO that's one possible reason why Jon might be coming back: b/c we are used to "losing" beloved/popular characters but not to having them revived - and eventually changed. The whole Beric/Thoros-story just prepares the reader for this so that it is less Deux Ex Machine.

I get what you're saying but what I meant was the actual process of killing major characters. He (GRRM) is getting twice the bang for his buck by using the tactic but then bringing him back. He gets to kill off another major player for the shock factor without the permanent consequence.

The problem with killing your major players is that people get invested in them. If you do it too many times you start to have problems replacing them.

I think we're at that point with Jon which is why I believe wholeheartedly that he will come back. If Jon is gone for good my interest in the story will be greatly diminished like it was after the red wedding. We're running low on Starks. Matter of fact, my favorite ones are already gone. I could care less about Dany and her dragons or Dorne teenage mutant ninja whores. I just want to see some sort of eventual Northern retribution for the lost Starks. . .

[Eldric Storm]

I get what you're saying but what I meant was the actual process of killing major characters. He (GRRM) is getting twice the bang for his buck by using the tactic but then bringing him back. He gets to kill off another major player for the shock factor without the permanent consequence.

The problem with killing your major players is that people get invested in them. If you do it too many times you start to have problems replacing them.

I think we're at that point with Jon which is why I believe wholeheartedly that he will come back. If Jon is gone for good my interest in the story will be greatly diminished like it was after the red wedding. We're running low on Starks. Matter of fact, my favorite ones are already gone. I could care less about Dany and her dragons or Dorne teenage mutant ninja whores. I just want to see some sort of eventual Northern retribution for the lost Starks. . .

I agree whole heartedly with you. The fact they haven't brought unCat in the mix annoys me. I want to see the Riverlands and less of Dorne and of course if the book isn't out then I'll be skipping the show till it does come out.

[Woman of War]

I am quite sure that Jon will come back somehow.

But what will he be then? We all know lots of variations from fiction, books, movies, series. In the series we have the wights, Stoneheart or Beric - and Melisandre herself. No Coldhands so far and no warg who actually lives in his animal, only Bran for a few moments. So what - Jon actively warging into Ghost or resurrected by Melisandre?

What will he be after that?

- A "normal" human being, Jon as we know him, only altered and traumatized by the experience? Who has to eat, ages and will finally die just like before?

- Jon the Undead who inhabits his old body but who is no longer physically alive? Who does not age, does not eat or drink, is not cold, in short has no metabolism? A being like that would basically be immortal until he gets chopped to pieces or until the magic that sustains it is broken.

- Jons body is used by a different being that only looks like Jon but has a completely different personality? Equipped with Jon's memory, the memory of Jon's emotions as well in that case, but who does not actually feel these emotions.

- No physical Jon but Jon's personality in another being? Ghost? Olly? Melisandre?

All those versions would have a different story impact.

- A Jon simply resurrected like he was before, after having been deep frosted or stored within Ghost for a while has several story options, basically the same he had before. But who would believe that he was really dead if the body has healed and there are only some scars? Thomas the Unbeliever would need a wound to put his finger in.

- A Jon who is no longer physically alive would hardly ever sit the IT or be Lord of WF. An undead being would not be accepted by anyone longterm after he gets busted, he would create very justified disgust. Jesus chose to avoid that awkward situation by ascension but to whom would Jon finally ascent after his earthly work is done? Apart from that this Jon could never produce a heir: no metabolism. Meaning he is a character doomed to end either as morally positive sacrifice or as evil spirit. Or he looms in some frosty corner for five thousand years, waiting to start the long night again.

- The different being In Jon's body? Azor Ahai? Night King? Whatever Martin's mythology might offer, maybe a saint, maybe a cruel monster. Will Jon's memories of love and morality keep this monstrous potential at bay?

- Jon's personality in another body? Kit Harington would be out then, a pity but going along with what he himself said. How would they film Ghost's inner thoughts? Voice over? Certainly Martin could write that as POV but it might be unfilmable, a character switch like that, explaining to the audience that Carice van Houten now is Jon? (And maybe has sex as man in a woman's body ;) )

Jon in Ghost could happen for a very short time in the series but then he would have to return into his former body and we would be back to zero guessing what the nature of this body could be.

Before getting resurrected by Melisandre he could technically be deep frosted for one season. But then why did the show bring back Melisandre so hastily? Well freshly frozen meat is better than stale meat getting deep frosted. Jon in an ice coffin until season seven and to give the viewers hope we get a glimpse at him in his glacial bed. Han Solo instead of Jesus?

[Visceral Varys]

I am quite sure that Jon will come back somehow.

But what will he be then? We all know lots of variations from fiction, books, movies, series. In the series we have the wights, Stoneheart or Beric - and Melisandre herself. No Coldhands so far and no warg who actually lives in his animal, only Bran for a few moments. So what - Jon actively warging into Ghost or resurrected by Melisandre?

- Jons body is used by a different being that only looks like Jon but has a completely different personality? Equipped with Jon's memory, the memory of Jon's emotions as well in that case, but who does not actually feel these emotions.

- A Jon who is no longer physically alive would hardly ever sit the IT or be Lord of WF. An undead being would not be accepted by anyone longterm after he gets busted, he would create very justified disgust.

- The different being In Jon's body? Azor Ahai? Night King? Whatever Martin's mythology might offer, maybe a saint,

I totally get where you are going with some of this and it and it is the same as I was thinking.

- I strongly don't believe they can convincingly, at this point, introduce Jon's ability to warg. It would be so completely out from thin-air as to look like a desperate response to the viewers outcry over Jon's death. I can already see the reviews accusing D&D of pulling it out of their collective asses to appease the audience. They would be laughed at, I'm certain. There has been no set-up for his warging ability at all.

- Jon becoming part of the Blue-eyed army doesn't make sense either as that would be taking a protagonist and turning him into an antagonist and is too much of a flip. The Night's King and Jon must be on opposite sides. I do love the Night's King though, total bad-ass and the only one(s) up to the task of taking him on is Dany-Drogon and/or Jon-AA.

- No undead on the Throne. God no!

- What would be interesting is if Jon, his spirit, died and his body resurected by Melisandre ( because home girl has got to get something right at some point, damn!) and repurposed for the Prince-Who-Was-Promised or AA if they are the same entity. However there hasn't been much set-up for this and it would take an episode of look-backs and explaining to make sense to the non book reading audience. It would also be a stretch for the actor, Kit, which...hmm...I don't know if he is a strong enough actor to pull off. He's improved since the beginning of GOT but...

- What would work is a season of looking back in history to when Jon was born. Show how Ned came to learn of of his existance. Maybe the battle at the tower with the Kings guard; Llyanas request and Ned's promise...who Jon's parents really are and then, in the last few episodes, come back to present time and Melisandre getting her Lord of Light freak on and successfully resurecting Jon. We'd know his true parentage and he'd be back with a new identity and purpose - but still Jon. That would be exciting!

[JonSnowed]

I don't believe comparing Jon's stabbing to the Red Wedding is a fair comparison. In the books Rob was very much a secondary character who appeared in others POV, yes Catelyn dies and she was a POV but I never felt invested in her (perhaps because I started reading the books after S3 of the show). Jon in both the books and show is clearly built up with a back story and set on a course which smacks hero, Rob never really had that in the books (but did in the show I guess to make the Red Wedding more shocking).

[JonSnowed]

I don't believe comparing Jon's stabbing to the Red Wedding is a fair comparison. In the books Rob was very much a secondary character who appeared in others POV, yes Catelyn dies and she was a POV but I never felt invested in her (perhaps because I started reading the books after S3 of the show). Jon in both the books and show is clearly built up with a back story and set on a course which smacks hero, Rob never really had that in the books (but did in the show I guess to make the Red Wedding more shocking).

[JonSnowed]

I don't believe comparing Jon's stabbing to the Red Wedding is a fair comparison. In the books Rob was very much a secondary character who appeared in others POV, yes Catelyn dies and she was a POV but I never felt invested in her (perhaps because I started reading the books after S3 of the show). Jon in both the books and show is clearly built up with a back story and set on a course which smacks hero, Rob never really had that in the books (but did in the show I guess to make the Red Wedding more shocking).

[Woman of War]

I totally get where you are going with some of this and it and it is the same as I was thinking.

- I strongly don't believe they can convincingly, at this point, introduce Jon's ability to warg. It would be so completely out from thin-air as to look like a desperate response to the viewers outcry over Jon's death. I can already see the reviews accusing D&D of pulling it out of their collective asses to appease the audience. They would be laughed at, I'm certain. There has been no set-up for his warging ability at all.

- Jon becoming part of the Blue-eyed army doesn't make sense either as that would be taking a protagonist and turning him into an antagonist and is too much of a flip. The Night's King and Jon must be on opposite sides. I do love the Night's King though, total bad-ass and the only one(s) up to the task of taking him on is Dany-Drogon and/or Jon-AA.

- No undead on the Throne. God no!

- What would be interesting is if Jon, his spirit, died and his body resurected by Melisandre ( because home girl has got to get something right at some point, damn!) and repurposed for the Prince-Who-Was-Promised or AA if they are the same entity. However there hasn't been much set-up for this and it would take an episode of look-backs and explaining to make sense to the non book reading audience. It would also be a stretch for the actor, Kit, which...hmm...I don't know if he is a strong enough actor to pull off. He's improved since the beginning of GOT but...

- What would work is a season of looking back in history to when Jon was born. Show how Ned came to learn of of his existance. Maybe the battle at the tower with the Kings guard; Llyanas request and Ned's promise...who Jon's parents really are and then, in the last few episodes, come back to present time and Melisandre getting her Lord of Light freak on and successfully resurecting Jon. We'd know his true parentage and he'd be back with a new identity and purpose - but still Jon. That would be exciting!

Kit Harington playing Melisandre playing Jon?

You mean like Will Smith playing Sarah Palin playing Obama?

Good luck with that, Kit!

[Lord Freypie]

I'd vote for : Jon spirit surviving through warging, never returning to his body but returning into another living human one (man wolf then man again).

He may warg Ghost for a time, but as his human body will stay dead he'll have to find another (so the Kit Harrington is gone for good interviews would be true).

Then my pet theory is the best body candidate would be the one of his evil bastard double Ramsay who will travel to the wall to search Sansa/"Arya-Jeyne" (hence why they gave him so much attention in the show and used a lead quality actor like Iwan Rheon for him) and will do things horrible enough there to trigger Jon finding the power to possess him.

Then the story of these two opposed personnalities in the same body (Ramsay's naturally surviving at least as a voice in his head), the irony of all the northern lords plotting against a Ramsay that would in fact be Jon, the difficulties he would have to use the Bolton forces for opposite political goals than their original ones, etc... Is the kind of twisted story I imagine Martin can write (yes I tend to think if something like this happens it would be in both books and show, especially considering Varamyr chapter to introduce the idea).

[Carty011093]

What I can completely see happening in the show....

Jon is bought back by Melisandre (maybe with help from bran or warg ghost. But unlikely) reveals the mutiny to other supportive nights watch brothers, overthrows the 999th Lord commander, re elected 1000th Lord commander. Merges with wildlings, receives pink letter. Marches on winter fell, overthrows the boltons. (Bolton banners burning) that's as far as I got.

[Woman of War]

@Lord Freypie

You think Ramsay would be Martin's top candidate for Jon to warg into? Grisly.

But I agree: the show would not change anything as important as that, it could hardly get anymore twisted than this.

And suddenly the marriage of Sansa to Ramsay makes sense, first of all in the eyes of those who have always shipped Jon with Sansa. Oh yes, and if Sansa is pregnant by Ramsay it would be from good guy Jon.........I wonder how RamsayJon in his profound eloquence would explain to Sansa that she could return to fucking him..... :D ......the Lord's kiss?

Only why then should Jon's parentage have mattered at all, who would still care? There would not be a biological son of Rhaegar anymore.

Sorry but I am too simply wired for that. But if you are right I'll buy you an ice cream.

[Lord Freypie]

Ok it's what can be called a crackpot theory.

But I think it would be a great irony if Jon learns (or even better find proofs) about his parentage while in another body, with no chance to ever convince anyone he's even Jon.

+ Jon parentage is important in terms of prophecies, no matter in which corpse he ends his existence would be still the result of what Rhaegar and Lyanna did.

[~DarkHorse~]

I always assumed that Jon's soul would not be damaged because he wargs into Ghost so his spirit will stay in the world of the living. The problem with Beric and Lady Stoneheart is that their spirits were no longer in the realm of the living when they died. I'm guessing taking a soul from the realm of the dead and putting it back into the realm of the living has damaging consequences. Luckily, Jon may have warged into Ghost but it really depends on how long he stays in Ghost before going back into his own body. I also don't think the show are going with the warg plot, so who knows.

Even without the repercussions of resurrection, being murdered by his 'brothers' will have damaged him. I think he will be less honourable and more ruthless when he gets back. There were too many of his men involved in FTW on the show so I find it hard to believe that he will just come back and deal with the mutineers and then back to business as usual....can he even remember all of their faces?

Also, the idea that a new actor will be brought in to play Jon is ridiculous. That would not work on the show and it would be cheesy. Kit is Jon. Jon's blood is what makes him 'special' and that blood is in his body. Either Kit comes back as Jon or Jon is dead for good.

[Ben H'gahr]

I get what you're saying but what I meant was the actual process of killing major characters. He (GRRM) is getting twice the bang for his buck by using the tactic but then bringing him back. He gets to kill off another major player for the shock factor without the permanent consequence.

The problem with killing your major players is that people get invested in them. If you do it too many times you start to have problems replacing them.

I think we're at that point with Jon which is why I believe wholeheartedly that he will come back. If Jon is gone for good my interest in the story will be greatly diminished like it was after the red wedding. We're running low on Starks. Matter of fact, my favorite ones are already gone. I could care less about Dany and her dragons or Dorne teenage mutant ninja whores. I just want to see some sort of eventual Northern retribution for the lost Starks. . .

Not I get what you are saying: It would be surprising if Jon was dead since it would be surprising that GRRM uses the same old trick over and over again, which is not his style / does not correspond to his quality of writing? Please correct me if I am again wrong.

You also mention the "rooting for" and "investing" problem: I get it but I think it is dangerous insofar that GRRM likes to challenge the reader with "non-conventional narrative patterns" like killing those the usual reader would root for.

On the other hand, GRRM likes underdogs (Tyrion, Varys are best examples - best juxtaposed to "Highschool-Football-Captain"-type of guys in the books like Jaime, Robb Stark and King Robert), Jon Snow being clearly an "underdog" since he is a bastard and his ... let's call it very progressive approach to being LC.

IMO in case of Jon Snow this is double-sided in the fact that people "rooted for" him (hence he is subject to GRRM's killing spree) but he is also an underdog (hence he falls into the category of GRRM has a particular interest in) - so I see that both could happen (survival in any way and form / non-survival).

But then your argument of GRRM not playing the same card over and over again comes into play and also Jon's role in the story so far: I don't think he is done yet, there must be more to him than just bringing the wildlings over and preparing for the Other's attack. Just ask yourself if this was the whole job of his character, why depicting him from the beginning on, letting him go through all sorts of "character building events" and create a mystery about his parentage? Killing him off now would be sh*t storytelling.

The northern retribution for the lost Starks:

I also agree here. It's about damn time. Especially in the show they have been kicked too hard IMO.

I agree whole heartedly with you. The fact they haven't brought unCat in the mix annoys me. I want to see the Riverlands and less of Dorne and of course if the book isn't out then I'll be skipping the show till it does come out.

And here I wholeheartedly agree with you! Afaik the Dorne-storyline was already perceived critically in the books. In the show, the Dorne-plot had terrible terrible terrible writing and acting - srsly, I thought a 2nd Year College English Literature Major could have written more interesting dialogues.

The Riverlandsplot is, IMO, much more interesting and also more relevant from a "strategic" perspective. I think D&D wanted to get the North as a fraction in the war out of the way.

[Woman of War]

The Riverlandsplot is, IMO, much more interesting and also more relevant from a "strategic" perspective. I think D&D wanted to get the North as a fraction in the war out of the way.

Why would that be? I am genuinely wondering.

Do you simply have that impression because they did not show it or do you think there is a plot purpose behind limiting the importance of that Northern storyline?

Or could it simply be postponed?

We may agree that Dorne could have been handled far better but I do not see why that Northern storyline would be more important or more interesting than Dorne on principle, Dorne well done. Because the North is closer to the upper North, to the Wall where the truly important events will happen? But who rules Winterfell might be just as unimportant in the end as who rules Dorne when it comes to the plot deciding final events and battles.

[Visceral Varys]

Kit Harington playing Melisandre playing Jon?

You mean like Will Smith playing Sarah Palin playing Obama?

Good luck with that, Kit!

Not what I meant but hell, why not...lol...with the way this story telling is going!

[Ben H'gahr]

Why would that be? I am genuinely wondering.

Do you simply have that impression because they did not show it or do you think there is a plot purpose behind limiting the importance of that Northern storyline?

Or could it simply be postponed?

We may agree that Dorne could have been handled far better but I do not see why that Northern storyline would be more important or more interesting than Dorne on principle, Dorne well done. Because the North is closer to the upper North, to the Wall where the truly important events will happen? But who rules Winterfell might be just as unimportant in the end as who rules Dorne when it comes to the plot deciding final events and battles.

I'm just saying that for me personally the Riverlands would be more interesting and relevant than Dorne in the form it was portrayed, it was not my intention to imply that Dorne is less interesting in principle

I meant that the Riverlands sotryline is more important from a warfare-perspective because this is where the remainder of the northern forces/Stark loyalists hide out (in the books afaik) whereas there is no warfare in Dorne. D&D want to get this aspect out of their way, which they by implying that the whole northern army was killed off in the RW, so they can concentrate on other things in the story - I would just have preferred otherwise. Re-introducing the Riverlands story now in the show would seem arbitrary, so I cannot see how they would do it.

[Woman of War]

I certainly liked the Riverland story. But I wonder if there might not be quite a few people complaining about he omission of Dorne if the show had concentrated on the Riverlands.