So who actually has a rightful claim to the Iron Throne now? [SPOILERS]

[Rhaegar Jaime Tyrell]

Now that Stannis is dead (we're lead to believe), and for argument's sake let's say you accept that Robert was rightfully king (not a usurper as Dany says), who should the throne pass to? His brothers are dead, and Cersei's children are bastards. If not Gendry, then who would the succession law dictate? House Baratheon is basically gone at this point.

Looking at the tree, legally we have to go back to the Dany.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Baratheon#House_Baratheon_at_the_end_of_the_third_century

[Rhaegar Jaime Tyrell]

Double post

[RoamingRonin]

It all rolls back to the Targaryens now. Jon and Dany are the rightful heirs to the throne. But we have to look at things from two angles: what we know as readers and what the characters know. As readers: we know Jon has the better claim and then comes Dany. The characters believe Tommen is the heir, Dany is a potential rival with a claim coming from the previous dynasty, and Jon is just a bastard (and dead).

So as far as the Baratheon/Lannisters go: it's Tommen and his potential heirs. If he dies without issue there will be a major squabble over who has "next". Do they put a Lannister on the throne? A Tyrell? I don't think anyone in Westeros is ready to send off for Dany.

[Borodin]

As readers: we know Jon has the better claim and then comes Dany.

Huh? You mean as advocates of a particular fan theory, not "as readers".

[RoamingRonin]

Huh? You mean as advocates of a particular fan theory, not "as readers".

I meant what I said.

[D-Shiznit]

Dany is the rightful heir in both lines of succession.

[Haus of Targaryen]

Do we really think that Gendry will play a pivotal role in the outcome of this story though? Who of consequence will support him even if it were possible for him to be legitimized. Things have never gone over smoothly whenever a bastard has laid claim to the throne... The most obvious example would be the Blackfyre's & now Cersei's brood

[Borodin]

I meant what I said.

But as far as the books and readers are concerned, Jon has no claim at all.

[lsdjesus]

Dany isn't the heir to the Baratheon line, not even according to the books.

Although the Baratheons have Targaryen blood, from Rhaelle Targaryen, grandmother to Robert, Stannis and Renly, Dany herself, iirc, doesn't have any Baratheon ancestry, and thus couldn't be the rightful heir to their dynasty. Robert could have been a Targaryen heir (but he never was first in line anyway), but from a Baratheon point of view, the rightful heir couldn't be a Targaryen not descended from Rhaelle.

At this point, you'd have to go through the family tree to find the rightful heir. Given what we know, it could be someone of house Velaryon. But we really don't know much.

[Theon'sSong]

how do you read the books or watch the show and think the concept of "rightful claim" mean anything? even within the confines of the show

You beat me to the punch on this topic.

This is one of the issues that bothers me with the premature killing of Shireen and Stannis. There is now no legitimate heir to the throne currently in Westeros. So who is it?

And Tommen's fate is shaky at best given the circumstances and the prophecy hanging over his and Cersei's head and with Joffrey and Myrcella gone, he seems to be next in line to be a goner. I do think the Tyrells will make a power grab if Tommen dies.

But technically, who actually has the best claim?

The show essentially ended House Baratheon and yet the stag is one of the four main heads on the title intro.

[lsdjesus]

how do you read the books or watch the show and think the concept of "rightful claim" mean anything? even within the confines of the show

I don't believe it means anything. Dany might very well sit on the throne. But she isn't the rightful Baratheon heir. The actual heir might not play any role, or even be mentioned, as the Targs could very well conquer the Iron Throne back before Tommen's demise.

[Gneisenau]

Under the assumption Baratheon is the royally house, we must search for the descendant's of Lyonel's daughter (the one Aegon rejected).

[lsdjesus]

Under the assumption Baratheon is the royally house, we must search for the descendant's of Lyonel's daughter (the one Aegon rejected).

That is a definite possibility, I had missed it while glancing through the wiki. If that daughter of Lyonel has any surviving issue, they are the heirs.

[Gneisenau]

That is a definite possibility, I had missed it while glancing through the wiki. If that daughter of Lyonel has any surviving issue, they are the heirs.

All though Lyonel's daughter's descendants wouldn't have the Baratheon name unless they remarried back into the Baratheons

[lsdjesus]

All though Lyonel's daughter's descendants wouldn't have the Baratheon name unless they remarried back into the Baratheons

Maybe not the name, but they'd have the blood. Like Harrold Hardyng, who is heir to House Arryn, and comes before the Arryns of Gulltown in the line of succession, since he is closer to Jon in the family tree.

[Eddy1]

Dany isn't the heir to the Baratheon line, not even according to the books.

Although the Baratheons have Targaryen blood, from Rhaelle Targaryen, grandmother to Robert, Stannis and Renly, Dany herself, iirc, doesn't have any Baratheon ancestry, and thus couldn't be the rightful heir to their dynasty. Robert could have been a Targaryen heir (but he never was first in line anyway), but from a Baratheon point of view, the rightful heir couldn't be a Targaryen not descended from Rhaelle.

At this point, you'd have to go through the family tree to find the rightful heir. Given what we know, it could be someone of house Velaryon. But we really don't know much.

Robert was the founder of the royal dynasty, so his heir doesn't necessarily have to be from the Baratheon line. His heir would simply be his closest blood relative, who is Dany.

[lsdjesus]

Robert was the founder of the royal dynasty, so his heir doesn't necessarily have to be from the Baratheon line. His heir would simply be his closest blood relative, who is Dany.

If this is the case, the Estermonts come way before Dany.

[Desert Fox]

This is the problem with succession. The rules you use can create vastly different outcomes. Presuming there are NO male barthenon male cousins, second cousins, 3rd cousins, or even 99th cousins running around, because if there are, they are heirs to House Baratheon.

Then the question if you can inherret through your mothers lines, which called cognatic or you can only inherent through male lines, agnatic.

Cognatic, it's probably Eldon Estermont or some other Estermont.

If it's agnatic, then some daughter (or the male heir of a such a daughter) of a distant cousin Baratheon would inherent, or her offspring. That could be anybody.

Some laws of succession wouldn't even allow any new King because only descendents of kings could be king, not just successors. The idea being you can't just pass the crown to a relative who isn't kings blood. But with that sort of thinking, even Stannis couldn't be king if he dates his thrown back to Robert winning by right of conquest. It gets trickier since Roberts last act was naming his heir as king. But only because Ned wrote it down wrong.

Even trickier is if Robert and Stannis's claim was based on their Targarian ancestry. They could only do that if Aerys II was "attained" meaning him and his line were banned from teh line forever. If they did, there is no heir. If they didn't Dany is Queen and her brother was King before her.

You could also claim Tommen is the rightful heir because he isn't a bastard because his parents were married and he is legitimate no matter what. That's how the law was for a long time.

Basically, it's a huge mess based on rules that nobody wrote down.

[lsdjesus]

This is the problem with succession. The rules you use can create vastly different outcomes. Presuming there are NO male barthenon male cousins, second cousins, 3rd cousins, or even 99th cousins running around, because if there are, they are heirs to House Baratheon.

Then the question if you can inherret through your mothers lines, which called cognatic or you can only inherent through male lines, agnatic.

Cognatic, it's probably Eldon Estermont or some other Estermont.

If it's agnatic, then some daughter (of the male heir of a such a daughter) of a distant cousin Baratheon would inherent, or her offspring. That could be anybody.

Some laws of succession wouldn't even allow any new King because only descendents of kings could be king, not just successors. The idea being you can't just pass the crown to a relative who isn't kings blood. But with that sort of thinking, even Stannis couldn't be king if he dates his thrown back to Robert winning by right of conquest. It gets trickier since Roberts last act was naming his heir as king. But only because Ned wrote it down wrong.

Even trickier is if Robert and Stannis's claim was based on their Targarian ancestry. They could only do that if Aerys II was "attained" meaning him and his line were banned from teh line forever. If they did, there is no heir. If they didn't Dany is Queen and her brother was King before her.

You could also claim Tommen is the rightful heir because he isn't a bastard because his parents were married and he is legitimate no matter what. That's how the law was for a long time.

Basically, it's a huge mess based on rules that nobody wrote down.

Very interesting post.

If we're going with Targaryen legitimacy, but excluding Aerys II's attained line, then I believe the rightful heir could be Doran Martell.

[RoamingRonin]

Dany isn't the heir to the Baratheon line, not even according to the books.

Although the Baratheons have Targaryen blood, from Rhaelle Targaryen, grandmother to Robert, Stannis and Renly, Dany herself, iirc, doesn't have any Baratheon ancestry, and thus couldn't be the rightful heir to their dynasty. Robert could have been a Targaryen heir (but he never was first in line anyway), but from a Baratheon point of view, the rightful heir couldn't be a Targaryen not descended from Rhaelle.

At this point, you'd have to go through the family tree to find the rightful heir. Given what we know, it could be someone of house Velaryon. But we really don't know much.

She has Targaryen blood and that trumps Baratheon blood where the Iron Throne is concerned. She's not trying to continue the line of House Baratheon. She wants to reinstall her own House.