The Battle for Castle Black

[TheLeviathan73]

See I thought we were talking about the idiot ball. Thus why nitpicking,purposely made silly. but in that case I'll take a step back. Lets be clear why in your mind's eye did they kill him? Me- they killed jon because of bigotry (they couldn't set aside a blood debt, owed on both sides mind you.)

I think it's much clearer that this happened in the show, it's part of why I like that take better. In the books, it seems to be more about vows.

[Wavey Sauce]

In the books, Stannis, Jon, and Melissandra are really the only major characters in the books. GRRM teases that WoW will start with a major battle. I have always thought that would be the Battle for Mereen but perhaps the major battle for The Wall?

Battle of Ice and the Battle of fire.

Ice will be Stannis and the Manderlys (even though the Boltons and Freys think they are on their side) vs the Freys and some of the Boltons lead by Ramsay. At crofters where Stannis has set camp in between the 2 lakes.

fire will be at Mereen where Selmy and grey worm etc are fighting against the yunkai etc. The wrench in the system is the Iron Born are sailing right up and neither side knows why they are there and who they are fighting for

[LordDireStark]

Somehow I think Davos gets involved somehow. I think he liked Jon Snow. So he might

round up some of the sellswords who abandoned Stannis and takes up Jon's cause

against Ser Alliser and company.

[A Ghost of Someone]

The mutineers have a plan, I am sure of it regarding what they do next. We, unfortunately do not know what it is. I suspect that they hate the wildings and may attempt to get the Boltons to help get rid of them. That would be interesting but what they do with Jon's body and how they try and explain what went down when he was killed, lie or admit. Davos and Mel are there and they may be in danger as well. Thorne has proven that he cannot be trusted. Olly is a warped little shit who has been manipulated. Admit it, if he dropped the dagger at the end and said i can not do it, he would be loved. This kid has been mentally scared by the loss of his family and has been taken advantage of by Thorne and his cronies. I hate it when kids get manipulated. Sansa was too once, well, still is to an extent but you get my meaning.

[Spilt Pea Soup]

The mutineers have a plan, I am sure of it regarding what they do next. We, unfortunately do not know what it is. I suspect that they hate the wildings and may attempt to get the Boltons to help get rid of them. That would be interesting but what they do with Jon's body and how they try and explain what went down when he was killed, lie or admit. Davos and Mel are there and they may be in danger as well. Thorne has proven that he cannot be trusted. Olly is a warped little shit who has been manipulated. Admit it, if he dropped the dagger at the end and said i can not do it, he would be loved. This kid has been mentally scared by the loss of his family and has been taken advantage of by Thorne and his cronies. I hate it when kids get manipulated. Sansa was too once, well, still is to an extent but you get my meaning.

 

Very good point.  They have the advantage because they have acted and have a plan.  I don't expect the Wildlings just to throw them out.

[Visceral Varys]

Watchers has some filming news on this topic.
I'll just post link so I'm not spoiling the thread.
http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-filming-at-castle-black-set-in-magheramorne/#more-41916

[~DarkHorse~]

Watchers has some filming news on this topic.
I'll just post link so I'm not spoiling the thread.
http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-filming-at-castle-black-set-in-magheramorne/#more-41916

 

Thanks for sharing this! :cheers:

 

[spoiler] I hope the smoke seen on set means Jon gets an unburnt funeral experience. That would be epic! [/spoiler]

[alienarea]

They will make it look like Thorne has won, i.e. with the wildlings having left for the Gift, Jon Snow's body will get cremated, Thorne will become Lord Commander.

 

Then IceMaul will have a word or two with Thorne.

[LegitBastardofHouseTorres]

Arguing if oaths were broken or not is irreverent.  Fact is they murdered their lord commander.  Their is no justification at this point.  They knew that their actions both in book and show were against the law per say, because in both book and show they had an elaborate plan to keep it on the down low.  Though they believe themselves in the right, from an outside point of view they know it is wrong.  

 

Now on to the subject at hand.

 

Battle for Castle Black?

 

The wildings were given parts of the gift so to say that they will immediately storm castle black is wrong.  

You also would have to think that the mutineers next move would be to consolidate thier small forces at the wall and move on the wildings.  

 

though they have by far the smaller numbers they do have some important advantages.

1.  The wildlings do not know the land and terrain (they are from north of the wall simple enough to explain)

2.  They have legitimacy in the 7 kingdoms. ( the nights watch has been in existence for thousands of years and if they ask for assistance against a perceived wilding threat i'm sure some northern houses will come to their aid especially considering they are already settling in the gift.  Remember wildlings are like boogeymen in the north)

3.  Fortification ( they have castle black and other fortresses.  Even tormund has mentioned that crows are easy to kill in the open, not so easy in their castle)

 

So as for my prediction.  

 

I foresee Thorne consolidate his power among the NW, his faction at the moment is clearly the largest, and Jon supporters will be upset and resent his death but will not be able to do much about it.  Davos will be the one to get revenge for Jon.  Clearly he respected Jon.  And he is fully aware of the threat coming towards the wall.  He will leave the wall and organize the wildlings as fast as he can.  Thorne will send ravens to the northern lords and they will march towards the gift.  The wildlings will realize that soon they will be surrounded so they decide to storm castle black.  Battle begins but soon after 3 horns are heard, everyone freezes in fear and episode ends!!

 

BTW Davos will have met Sansa by now and went on his mission, not sure how or why but thats for another forum....

 

my 79 cents....   

[Selena]

Castle Black is not defensible from the south.. and there were still a few who were loyal to Jon...only takes one of them to get to Tormmund and then Thorne and company are in trouble...

[Ser Friendzoned]

Castle Black is not defensible from the south.. and there were still a few who were loyal to Jon...only takes one of them to get to Tormmund and then Thorne and company are in trouble...

 

Something tells me that Alliser and friends have a plan for that. Let's hope that Dolorous is okay though.

[nyser1]

 
Something tells me that Alliser and friends have a plan for that. Let's hope that Dolorous is okay though.

Alliser and a handful of other men versus thousands of wildlings, orher members of the Nights Watch, And Ghost? After killing the lord commander and the only person the wildlings saw as their shield in the south (of the wall)?

[The Amun Ra]

Let me clarify something: Nobody really knows the reason why the NW members stabbed Jon in the books because book 6 is not out yet and please don't act that you know everything. Yes, the Pink Letter might have been a reason to assassinate Jon but on the other hand, it might have just been a catalyst. The whole assassination plot might have been planned for a quite some time.

[RenlyTheOneTrueKing]

Jon's killing makes sense. Who knows if Alliser ect. Even believe that Jon and Sam killed those White Walkers. They still focus on the Wildlings.

Tormund has been confirmed to come back, so I think he'll be our POV on attacking the wall from the Wildlings side. Unless Melisandre rises Jon and he slaughters them all, I think the Wildlings will have a part to play. Maybe a large number will die in the season finale or something, when the Wall falls.

[Ser Friendzoned]

Jon's killing makes sense. Who knows if Alliser ect. Even believe that Jon and Sam killed those White Walkers. They still focus on the Wildlings.

Tormund has been confirmed to come back, so I think he'll be our POV on attacking the wall from the Wildlings side. Unless Melisandre rises Jon and he slaughters them all, I think the Wildlings will have a part to play. Maybe a large number will die in the season finale or something, when the Wall falls.

 

Certainly a possibility that the wall will fall, and with it many NW, Wildings, and WW's.

[Survivor92]

Let's see. In the books:

 

- Hardhome is mostly a collection of rumors

- Jon betrays the NW and breaks his vows by never burning Mance, sending Mance to rescue Arya, marching out himself to Winterfell, possibly having a (sexual) relationship with Val (at least many men of the NW believe so), letting Wildlings man the walls and giving them food and finally he involves himself with politics by throwing Cregan Karstark in an ice cell and marrying Alys Karstark to a Wildling.

- In the books Bowen Marsh asks Jon what will happen if instead of the Others, another Wildling army will show up. Since Jon manned the walls and various castles with Wildlings, they could easily stab the NW in the back.

 

So in the books there are multiple occassions where Jon broke his vows / betrayed the NW and the Others are mostly a rumor. Many men of the NW have more fear for the Wildlings. In the books there's actually quite a lot of justification for the assassination of Jon.

 

Now in the show we have:

- Jon went to Hardhome with other men of the NW. He killed a White Walker and is apparantly the only one from the NW who can do so (thanks to his sword). He also seems to have some sort of connection with the Night King.

- Thorne let Jon & the Wildlings in and then stabs Jon for letting the Wildlings in. If anything, he should stab himself.

- No pink letter, no politics, no marching to Winterfell, no Val, no Mance, etc. Basically their only justification is that Jon Thorne let the Wildlings in.

 

I really don't get it how people seem to think that they were justified in their act in the show. The whole set-up and foreshadowing was just done terribly. D&D probably didn't want to give away too much so they could go for the cheap shock effect.

 

As for the aftermath. On the show I would have no idea since it's pretty much fanfiction now. I can see them teleporting Thorne to Winterfell and meeting with Ramsay and during that time we're supposed to believe that nothing will happen on the Wall. Then Ramsay will probably march with Thorne back to Castle Black where Sansa has arrived or something. Because we totally need another season where Sansa is a victim.

 

In the books, it should be pretty interesting. I expect Ghost will be freed and Wun Wun will go on a rampage. The assassination happened in clear sight so they cannot really cover it up. Jon might even get some personal revenge if he indeed warged into Ghost. Maybe some of the stabbers will be thrown in an ice cell but I don't see how they could survive this, unless the wall falls and the Others attack at the same time.

[Pyat>Daenerys]

In the show the conspirators are just a bunch of petty villains. The wildling are already over the wall. Fed and supplied. And Thorne and co. already had the opportunity to refuse entrance to them. Instead they let them in and then kill Jon, because that's what petty villains do. In the books they were crying, because it was an enormously hard choice. And it wasn't the wildlings. It was because they discovered Jon has been helping Stannis all along, has involved himself into non-watch politics and actually means to march onto WF against the Boltons. And he wasn't stabbed because he just broke every wow of the NW. But because they all feared if Stannis loses Ramsay will turn on them (because Jon helped Stannis) and disintegrate the entire watch.

 

In fact, saying ''for the watch'' on the show makes absolutely zero sense. Since they aren't helping the watch at all. They are just a bunch of fanatic KKK members. In the books, they believe they are actually saving the watch from extinction.

[nyser1]

The one sidedness in the show makes a few things seem to be more likely to be true. 1). The wildlings have a role to play in the 7k. 2). Jon wont stay dead; 3). The nights watch will go the way of the dodo.

[Ugly Little Girl]

On the show Jon was already hated and mistrusted by a significant proportion of the watch well before Hardhome so to reduce the motivation to that one action is (in my opinion) very superficial and overly simplistic.

What's the opposite of rose tinted glasses I wonder?

[thehandwipes]

We don't need TWOW to know why Bowen & Co stabbed Jon, we have ADWD.  In the books, I doubt that the conspirators have much of a plan for what happens next.  The stabbing was modelled after Caesar's assassination and I think the aftermath will show how impulsive the attack was and how little thought went into the consequences they would have to deal with. 

 

Don't know what will happen with the show, they could wrap it up with an episode or draw it out all season with Olly making a cup out of Jon's skull (or a throne out of wildling bones- Olly the Night's King) and Thorne leading a Rape Attack on the Wildlings.