R+L=J v.145

[UnmaskedLurker]

Ok, this will be a stupid question, but I would really like to understand...

Jon is more associated with Ice and he also seems to prefer ice, so if he becomes a balance ambassador between Others and humanity in a way you predict where does the importance of his Targ blood and R+L=J kick in? He already prefers ice and if he will learn to appreciate Others, how will he represent the fire part? Why would he or us care about the Targ part of him? How can you be a song of fire (and ice) if you mostly appreciate and identify with ice? Are Dany and the rest of the fire team going to listen to him because he is their long lost relative, will he be able to bind dragons to his will, will he want to preserve both fire and ice…(or is it all about him sleeping with Arya without guilt :))? And were does humanity stand in this battle? And where does Bran stand?

While we are at this topic there is a part I never understood -We have Others on one side and 3 heads of the dragon on the other side. Others are immune to cold and ice and they are probably less human than Targs or Starks and they are associated with ice. And then we have Targs who are more or less human (or even 100% human), who have been 'living with humans' for at least 5000 years, they are not immune to fire, but they still represent the other side of the spectrum-fire. Why are they on the other side of the spectrum and how?

Jon's journey is not over. Now, he identifies with Ice because it is all he knows. Once he learns his true heritage and the prophecy, we will see how he might be able to embrace his fire side.

I think actually the dragons represent fire in this context more than the Targs.

[falcotron]

Does Jon have to end the story as a human? Maybe if he wargs Drogon, he'll decide he actually likes being a dragon better than having to lead a bunch of whiny ex-cons, self-important lords, and too-proud freefolk. And maybe living in a resurrected human body isn't as pleasant as you'd hope. And this way he and Dany can live happily ever after (in a fashion) instead of having to make a political marriage and keep agonizing over whether his death and the destruction of the NW really get him out of his lifelong vow. As time goes by, less and less of Jon remains, but the part that remains is happy.

[Ygrain]

Dany too!!!!! Can't she just find her a house with a red door and be happy and peaceful with some guy she likes to bang?

Because people would keep bitching about her choice of sex partner(s)

I actually agree with this, with the caveat that the iron throne isn't the only throne to sit.Re: Bran and Bloodraven also sit thrones.

Now that's a path that makes me very uncomfortable, ever since Bran's consciousness leaving Summer to return into the crypts and everything feeling dark and dead. I cannot help but the crypts keep reminding me of the CotF cave, and not in a good way.

Don't know the mass effect, but dislike the idea of any human sacrifice, including the hero's self-sacrifice.
And I am not going to mention captain future because that would be just mean.

Oh, it's another of them "a guy stands against an ancient evil returning" things, only this one fights with guns and lasers. And, he gets killed and resurrected reconstructed.

[Sly Wren]

Very interesting thought..

A question though. Would that require Rhaegar having changed his mind about the identity of the Promised Prince? Or could it be that Lyanna, knowing Jon is the only son left, realised he would most likely fit the prophecy, hence her tears?

No idea, really. Really want to know what Rhaegar was thinking. . . . It would work if Lyanna knew about the prophesy, heard the Aegon was dead, and drew the conclusion. Big difference between "help the promised one" and "be the promised one"--at least most of the time. If there was a shift, could explain her sorrow. Or even a loss of faith (assuming she had "faith")--"promise me, Ned, keep my kid out of this craziness!"

Or, if this was a less-than-consensual situation--she might see herself as a sacrifice to get Jon--we don't yet know if Jon was really intended as a 3rd head. Stupid prophesy-givers need to leave instruction manuals--multiple copies. But if Jon was intended as something else--that could get interesting. The bleeding eyes--at least potentially ties to weirwood sacrifice.

Bottom line--some of the imagery around Lyanna seems potentially sacrificial--I really want to know what that prophesy actually said.

[Jô Maltese]

I think that Jon's rebirth as a dragon is nicely foreshadowed in the show:

The last picture shows us Jon lying in the

snow and his black blood spreading under and above his shoulder... To me it very much evokes a black (shadow) dragon wing growing on his back...

EDIT: clarity and spoiler tag

[Nights Kings Queen]

I think that Jon's rebirth as a dragon is nicely foreshadowed in the show:

The last picture shows us Jon lying in the

snow and his black blood spreading under and above his shoulder... To me it very much evokes a dragon wing growing on his back...

That was just the lighting and the way it was shot. Would take it with a pinch of salt.

Edit - same way Mel's wig is looking much more darker this season than the last, it's the lighting and all the other stuff

[Jô Maltese]

That was just the lighting and the way it was shot. Would take it with a pinch of salt.

Yes it was... And yes of course I would. But still...

[Ygrain]

Uh, just be careful about the show discussions, or else we might expect some fire and blood from the mods :-)

[Kat]

Yes, please avoid discussing the show in the book forums.

[Lady Darry]

Jon's journey is not over. Now, he identifies with Ice because it is all he knows. Once he learns his true heritage and the prophecy, we will see how he might be able to embrace his fire side.

I think actually the dragons represent fire in this context more than the Targs.

But why is there so much foreshadowing about him and Others? I'm having a difficult time imagining him embracing his fire side, (or how R+L=J is going to be relevant if his story arc is more or less just about Ice (and also a bit of negotiation between humanity and Others)). Sometimes I think that GRRM tried so hard to hide his true parentage and Targ associations that it will be very difficult to write about him embracing or even caring about his Targ blood. I have less problems imagining Tyrion accepting and believing that his father was a mad king who raped his mother (if A+J=T) then Jon caring about his parents love story (if Lyanna was a willing partner).

I always saw dragons as some sort of animals (regardless of their possible unnatural origin), but Others are humanoids, they have some sort of culture, language, will, agenda, so I can’t see dragons as the other side of the spectrum. And I have the same problem with Valyrians, there are a lot of fans who see them as the unnatural big bad, but they are much more human then Others.

[Lord Varys]

I'm not sure how Jon could even try to relate to his 'Targaryen side'. He has no living Targaryen relatives close-by unless you count Bloodraven (who may soon die - his voice isn't all that strong in ADwD), and he also does not look the part. Baelor Breakspear and Rhaenyra's elder sons were raised at court and knew who and what they were. Jon Snow doesn't have that advantage, and he lacks the Valyrian features which would enable him to see himself as a Targaryen (not to speak about the fact that everyone who ever knew him should continue to see him as Ned Stark's bastard).

Whatever Jon's purpose in the story eventually is the uncovering of his true heritage may actually come as a threat to him - after all, if he has Targaryen blood he should be first and foremost be considered a potential sacrifice by Melisandre and Stannis rather than a rival for the promised prince Azor Ahai role. Jon Snow was definitely not born on Dragonstone (the place of smoke and salt) nor has he woken dragons from stone or forged a magic sword by sacrificing his beloved.

If destiny has great plans with or for him it should better be calling out for him soon as Daenerys - the other one clearly destined for great stuff - is constantly surrounded by prophecy and destiny.

[UnmaskedLurker]

But why is there so much foreshadowing about him and Others? I'm having a difficult time imagining him embracing his fire side, (or how R+L=J is going to be relevant if his story arc is more or less just about Ice (and also a bit of negotiation between humanity and Others)). Sometimes I think that GRRM tried so hard to hide his true parentage and Targ associations that it will be very difficult to write about him embracing or even caring about his Targ blood. I have less problems imagining Tyrion accepting and believing that his father was a mad king who raped his mother (if A+J=T) then Jon caring about his parents love story (if Lyanna was a willing partner).

I always saw dragons as some sort of animals (regardless of their possible unnatural origin), but Others are humanoids, they have some sort of culture, language, will, agenda, so I can’t see dragons as the other side of the spectrum. And I have the same problem with Valyrians, there are a lot of fans who see them as the unnatural big bad, but they are much more human then Others.

Well, one of my pet theories is that Jon's original given name was Aemon Targaryen. Given what Jon thought of Maester Aemon, that knowledge (if true) will help Jon to connect to his Targ side. We also have no idea what sort of "meeting" he might have with his mother in his dream in the crypts (if that actually occurs) that will help him down the road to understanding the importance of his Targ side. As to foreshadowing about Jon and the Others -- well of course the main point of the prophecy about TPTWP is that Jon's unique combination of Ice and Fire is what ultimately will allow humanity to survive the invasion by the Others. Jon needs both sides to restore the balance.

Dragons are not just animals -- they are magical creatures. Another of my pet theories is that in the end--magic will be eliminated from the world. That means no more Others, no more dragons, no more warging, no more UnPeople, etc. etc. So as magical creatures are concerned, the Others are Ice and the Dragons are fire.

[Jô Maltese]

The place of smoke and salt could well be the freezing cellar where salted and smoked meats are kept at the wall, where Jon's body might be stored later? As for the dragon out of stone, I think Tyrion looks more and more to fit the bill - isn't he from the Rock after all?

EDIT: was answering to LV's post.

[Destroyer of Nations]

I am new on this forum so I hope I don't step on any toes. R+L=J seems to be quite popular on this forum and I actually subscribe to it myself but a lot of people assume certain things. For example, because Lyanna was not so fond of Robert she had to run away with Rhaegar, as if that's a standard response. I actually still think she was taken by force. In my eyes, it fits with the very neurotic and arrogant personality that Rhaegar had.

[Kizarvexious]

After reading all of GRRMs' GOT books ( including the Untold History ) it's my humble theory Jon is/was in fact Robert Baratheons son, conceived prior to Lyannas abduction.This would explain Ned Starks reluctance of telling anyone of Jons heritage, and Melisandres constant interest in him.

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei and Jaime were in fact Targaryens, partially based on Tywin Lannisters' strange inability or simple denial to see the truth regarding those close to him. Just a wild theory of mine :) And it still comes out to R+L=J ;)

[Destroyer of Nations]

Double post. Sorry.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I am new on this forum so I hope I don't step on any toes. R+L=J seems to be quite popular on this forum and I actually subscribe to it myself but a lot of people assume certain things. For example, because Lyanna was not so fond of Robert she had to run away with Rhaegar, as if that's a standard response. I actually still think she was taken by force. In my eyes, it fits with the very neurotic and arrogant personality that Rhaegar had.

Welcome to the forums. :cheers: As you might expect, that issue has been discussed before, and yes, I think that the majority view around here is that Lyanna was not taken by force, but you are not alone in believing that she was taken by force. Personally, I think she was not taken by force. The main reason is how Ned thinks of Rhaegar. Ned never seems to have a bad thought about Rhaegar and one thought he has is that Rhaegar would not visit a brothel (in comparison to Robert who did). Ned would know from Lyanna, most likely, whether she was taken by force. If Ned believed Rhaegar took Lyanna by force, I think Ned also would think that Rhaegar would visit brothels. There are some ways to explain why Ned would think that a man would take a woman by force would not have sex with prostitutes, but to me, the contradiction seems to be there.

One solution to this apparent contradiction -- and I think a majority position among the minority who believe Lyanna was taken by force -- is that Rhaegar really was just trying to protect Lyanna from Aerys who found out that she was TKotLT and was out to arrest her for treason. So to protect her, Rhaegar had to "kidnap" her and take her into hiding. I don't buy that theory, but at least it explains how Ned could think favorably of Rhaegar AND have Lyanna not have gone willingly (initially).

[falcotron]

I am new on this forum so I hope I don't step on any toes. R+L=J seems to be quite popular on this forum and I actually subscribe to it myself but a lot of people assume certain things. For example, because Lyanna was not so fond of Robert she had to run away with Rhaegar, as if that's a standard response.

Who says her reason for running away with Rhaegar had be to escape from Robert? She could have run away because she was in love with Rhaegar and he'd asked her to marry him, or because he explained the prophecy and she believed in it, or because she thought it was actually better for her family than the deal her father negotiated, or because she wanted to be a Queen, or because it sounded like a hell of an experience, or a million other good and bad reasons.

(Also, while it's true that running away with the handsome and charming crown prince to a secluded tower isn't a standard response to an unwelcome betrothal, I think that may have more to do with the fact that most women don't actually have that option than that few of them would consider it...)

[Sly Wren]

I'm not sure how Jon could even try to relate to his 'Targaryen side'. He has no living Targaryen relatives close-by unless you count Bloodraven (who may soon die - his voice isn't all that strong in ADwD), and he also does not look the part. Baelor Breakspear and Rhaenyra's elder sons were raised at court and knew who and what they were. Jon Snow doesn't have that advantage, and he lacks the Valyrian features which would enable him to see himself as a Targaryen (not to speak about the fact that everyone who ever knew him should continue to see him as Ned Stark's bastard).

Whatever Jon's purpose in the story eventually is the uncovering of his true heritage may actually come as a threat to him - after all, if he has Targaryen blood he should be first and foremost be considered a potential sacrifice by Melisandre and Stannis rather than a rival for the promised prince Azor Ahai role. Jon Snow was definitely not born on Dragonstone (the place of smoke and salt) nor has he woken dragons from stone or forged a magic sword by sacrificing his beloved.

If destiny has great plans with or for him it should better be calling out for him soon as Daenerys - the other one clearly destined for great stuff - is constantly surrounded by prophecy and destiny.

Agreed--assuming Rhaegar is his father, if Jon does need his Targ side for something, can see him not being at all happy about it and definitely seeing it as a threat whether Lyanna had a "romance" with Rhaegar or something much darker. Either way--this could be ugly, especially since like most of his "siblings" he sees himself as a Stark.

Still, if it's necessary (and that's a big if), Jon's had to embrace the "enemy" in some ways before. This would be really personal, though.

Am still inclined to see his role in the story and his strength as coming from his being a Stark--not magic, not "blood," but emotion, psychology, humanity. Agree that whatever he might need to "tie into" as a Targaryen is unlikely to give him half as much as being a Stark of Winterfell. Being "Targaryen" may not be much of a factor at all.

[MtnLion]

After reading all of GRRMs' GOT books ( including the Untold History ) it's my humble theory Jon is/was in fact Robert Baratheons son, conceived prior to Lyannas abduction.This would explain Ned Starks reluctance of telling anyone of Jons heritage, and Melisandres constant interest in him.

By the way, I wouldn't be surprised if Cersei and Jaime were in fact Targaryens, partially based on Tywin Lannisters' strange inability or simple denial to see the truth regarding those close to him. Just a wild theory of mine :) And it still comes out to R+L=J ;)

Oh, just one very telling question popped to mind. How long was the siege of Storm's End? Remember that Robert is in the field fighting when Storm's End siege begins. This is several months after Ned, Robert, and Jon Arryn have called their banners because Aerys demanded the heads of Ned and Robert. That is after Brandon's reckless challenge in King's Landing, that leads to his and Rickard's death. That would make it a considerable length for gestation on Lyanna's part. ;)