JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Is there anything we know about Nym? She... does... things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Even we hardcore Tyrell stans who despise Dorne out of principle feel offended by what D&D did ;)Question: is Dorne the worst storyline in the show's run so far? I think it is. Winterhell gives it a run for its money, but I still give Dorne the edge.Well, I suppose it's rather subjective and, really, a distinction without a difference but...I still think Winterhell was worse. There are many reasons but, man, how they "ended" Stannis' story was just ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I think Winterhell is rather disturbing. Dorne is offensive because it portrays an "orient-like" culture as colourful savages who only fuck and fight. It's already rotten from start, even if the plot had made some sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 BTW, what Ellaria and Loras have in common (besides being defined by their sexuality)? They seemed to have move on so easily and disrespect the one they loved. Cat was given a scene in which she mourned Ned and her sons. Dany had a scene invented in which she said goodbye to Drogo and their baby. Loras went on to climb to the first dick he found and Ellaria was like "fuck the things Oberyn believed. I want my revenge because it makes sense creatively!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Helm Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 It's kind of hard to rank which one is more offensive to be honest; I may give Winterhell the edge in that department because it had that special quality where it felt like punishing a character, rather than just having no fucking idea how to write them. ...is this the "SansarapebecausesherejectedTyrion!" punishment you refer to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Freypie Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 BTW, what Ellaria and Loras have in common (besides being defined by their sexuality)? Steve the intern writing their script, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 How is it he managed to give more character to Trystane who never appeared on page? I KNOW RIGHT? It is scary :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGBeyondAsshai Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 The memory of Oberyn only made Dorne that much worse. Apparently one man held all the intelligence, charisma and talent of his people. When the Mountain killed him, Dorne disappeared from existence until only the water gardens remained, populated by 6 really boring people with horrible scripts and a lack of direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Helm Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Dorne was utterly hilarious. As was Winterfell, even up to e6's ending for me until the last two or so episodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 ...is this the "SansarapebecausesherejectedTyrion!" punishment you refer to? I think I've made my feelings on this clear in the past. And while I don't think D&D ever sat down and said to themselves "Sansa rejected Tyrion so let's have her get raped," I do think there is a very disquieting pattern in how they have treated Sansa's character, from "correcting" her behavior back in S3 to have her kneel for and joke with Tyrion, to mentioning what a fantastic and wonderful guy he was 3 seconds before being raped. It's not exactly a stretch to say "hey, I think they really, really like Tyrion's character." Or that other characters have suffered for his benefit (look at Dany's treatment this year). I don't think the revenge porn implications are something they even considered. Which speaks volumes in and of itself. Do they think of themselves as sexists? No. Are they? Hell yes. Look at the pattern. And their lack of understanding that this is sexism isn't exactly a positive. No brownie points for "oh they don't mean it." Great, their objective wasn't to denigrate women. Yet somehow they accomplished it all the same. The kindest we can think of their decision to have Sansa become Jeyne is that they thought it would service Theon's story best. Which is also concerning. And offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuvuuia Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 They needed to read their Said Really good article anyway, although I think that books have big problems too, but I'm not ready to discuss it until reread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Doran looked melancholic on twitter. @dodor I love watching my gardens. It's very green. #waterlessgardens @dodor My son and Myrcella at-least-one-half Lannister what a lovely couple. #trystane #lannfans @dodor I like watching my gardens nearly as much my son like walking there. #trystane #waterlessgardens @dodor Still it's a bit boring, if only I had some boardgame with dragons to pass time... #boredom @dodor More childrens too, watching Myrcella made me dream, if only I had a daughter. #lonely @dodor Or if there were other cities than Dorne in Dorne, I could at least travel a little... #boredom @dodor My brother gf visited me, she's nice. #family @dodor She looked furious. I will forget she threatened the life of my bodyguard. #ellaria #dornishlaw @dodor She's in mourning. I will forget she wants to kill one of my guests. #ellaria #dornishlaw @dodor She looked very sad. I will forget she threatened the life of her prince. #ellaria #dornishlaw @dodor Grey sky here again, what a bad season, rained so much my desert turned to grasslands. #meteo @dodor I like watching my gardens but feel like something is missing. #waterlessgardens #boredom @dodor Thanks gods visitors finally, my nieces and the funcle of Myrcella what a good surprise. #feast @dodor They are improvising some kind of dance for me how nice. #dance @dodor My nieces looked in a bad mood I will forgive they tried to kill my guest. #dornishlaw @dodor The funcle of Myrcella really acts as a good father. #lannfans @dodor I'm so proud of my son, really my blood has the same sense of justice as me. #dornishlaw #trystane #bronn @dodor What a fire in my blood eyes when he watches Myrcella. #fireandblood @dodor I can't separate them. I'll ask the future step-funcle of my son to take him. #loveboat @dodor Ellaria made an effort to be nice this time but wasn't it a bit too much ? #ellaria #loveboat @dodor retweeted @Pornegirl You want the good woman but you need the bad pussy. #dornishculture @dodor And now they have left. My gardens will look empty. #lonely @dodor Perhaps I should invite people, some commoner childs, I don't know. #waterlessgardens @dodor Please stop unfollowing me one day something will happen. #lonely I love you. Will you be my special friend? I agree with those who suggested cutting Ellaria completely in the first place and having Arianne go with Oberyn to KL. Then we have the lead-in to Arianne as the focal point in Dorne season 5. I would maybe suggest having Quentyn turn up at Meereen so they could have the Doran/Arianne friction at the heart of the Dornish story. We wouldn't need to see his journey there. The reveal could happen about Doran's plan for Quentyn and then he could just turn up in Dany's story. It’s funny how lowering your expectations works isn’t it? If they had done this we would have been screaming and bitching like crazy, but when you compare it to what they actually did, it starts to make sense. Having Arianne in King’s Landing would create some implications that might change things. Like, she would have had to be the one to be the judge at the trial and on the Small Council. Although the way D&D see it they probably would have had her hanging out in the brothel and have Oberyn still so those things no matter how little sense it made, so... But seriously guys, plenty of book readers completely misunderstand Arianne, I could only imagine what D&D think her arc was about. They probably actually think Faullaria was taking on her role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Helm Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 <snip snip snippity snip> It's merely this contention they had such a strong desire to "punish" the character being the primary motivation for the Jeyne-switch I find odd, in spite of the hilarious Tyrion praise when tuning in for the Rambo Ramsay's Rapey Hour. Cogman's comments are quite telling and in line with what their "talent" has shown before for explaining it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Are you making fun of my English? because I really try but it's still very difficult, sorry if I'm unintelligible. Really good article anyway, although I think that books have big problems too, but I'm not ready to discuss it until reread. No no I was agreeing with you! Good gods, I'd never do that! (Not to mention I had no idea you were ESL because that's how clear your writing is) I was talking about Edward Said and how D&D could have benefited from reading Orientalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naseridrl Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I think I've made my feelings on this clear in the past. And while I don't think D&D ever sat down and said to themselves "Sansa rejected Tyrion so let's have her get raped," I do think there is a very disquieting pattern in how they have treated Sansa's character, from "correcting" her behavior back in S3 to have her kneel for and joke with Tyrion, to mentioning what a fantastic and wonderful guy he was 3 seconds before being raped. It's not exactly a stretch to say "hey, I think they really, really like Tyrion's character." Or that other characters have suffered for his benefit (look at Dany's treatment this year). I don't think the revenge porn implications are something they even considered. Which speaks volumes in and of itself. Do they think of themselves as sexists? No. Are they? Hell yes. Look at the pattern. And their lack of understanding that this is sexism isn't exactly a positive. No brownie points for "oh they don't mean it." Great, their objective wasn't to denigrate women. Yet somehow they accomplished it all the same. The kindest we can think of their decision to have Sansa become Jeyne is that they thought it would service Theon's story best. Which is also concerning. And offensive. I think every character who comes across Tyron suffers. The show is so determined to have him be white washed that it has a very negative effect on those he interacts with because its always about him looking good. I find the way the show deals with Tyrion really maddening because Dinklage could probably play book Tyrion really well. He's a complex character who has far more nuance than the show version does and I think a an actor most of them want to play characters who are multifaceted. The Sansa in Winterfell for me didn't even service Theon like the Jeyne stuff did. He got like 2 second of any kind of growth, whereas in the book there are many more cracks in the façade as things go along. They just took Sansa from where she was and sent her back in time only this time decided to make it even worse. She didn't grow or change she just went back and stagnated. In Dorne Ellaria got wrecked. If they wanted this vengeance stuff why couldn't it have just been the SS doing it. Have Ellaria be conflicted about what to do about it ll or something but don't butcher her character. Why does everyone have to want vengeance? Are there only two roads revenge or doormat on this show? Not everyone is like that some people see the futility of it all, she watched the man she loved die because he volunteered to fight because he wanted revenge, why would she want to keep that cycle going and then watch her child die the same way? They could have done lots with Ellaria but it was just senseless in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 It's merely this contention they had such a strong desire to "punish" the character being the primary motivation for the Jeyne-switch I find odd, in spite of the hilarious Tyrion praise when tuning in for the Rambo Ramsay's Rapey Hour. Cogman's comments are quite telling and in line with what their "talent" has shown before for explaining it. When did I ever say that? Their primary motivation was that they thought it would be more shocking to have the audience see Sansa get raped because we were invested in her. We know that because that's what Cogman said. It doesn't mean there can't also be an element of hating her character and including some really problematic messaging in their scripting of her arc (like the Tyrion call-out). Or the fact that there was literally only one element of Winterfell from the books that they adapted: Ramsay raping his wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Helm Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 When did I ever say that? Their primary motivation was that they thought it would be more shocking to have the audience see Sansa get raped because we were invested in her. We know that because that's what Cogman said. It doesn't mean there can't also be an element of hating her character and including some really problematic messaging in their scripting of her arc (like the Tyrion call-out). Or the fact that there was literally only one element of Winterfell from the books that they adapted: Ramsay raping his wife. I've seen this punishment thing being attributed to being the primary motivator Sansa-Jeyne-switch before. I was curious if you too bleated that when you wrote down about punishment as oppose to incompetence in your comment. I only further clarified my stance above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpenglowMemories Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 The kindest we can think of their decision to have Sansa become Jeyne is that they thought it would service Theon's story best. Which is also concerning. And offensive. Even that wasn't particularly well handled, given that it was relegated to one scene in the season finale. Although I find "redeeming" Theon to the Starks somewhat problematic for his character as well. He was a war hostage. They've already blurred that line in S3: "My real father died in King's Landng". Yes, the one who would have had your head if Balon had started his invasion a few years early... The way they approached the Winterfell season this year seemed sorely lacking in awareness. They had to overlook a host of problems just to get Sansa there, and their attempts at portraying her as a "strong individual making a choice" came too close to relishing a dumb bitch getting hers. She stands up to Myranda, saying she can't scare her in her home, and then Ramsay rapes her five minutes later. Now she's scared in her home. What were they thinking? Tyrion has been possibly the most bizarre character of the adaptation. He's so far removed from GRRM's original creation that I really don't think they actually like him in the book. This is what they want him to be: the hobbit sized knight in shining armour. The moral compass, the Nice Guy of Westeros. Book Tyrion rapes a sex slave, vomits, and then rapes her again. Show Tyrion can't bring himself to sleep with her. Book Tyrion has a singer turned into stew. Show Tyrion giggles with Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Helm Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Ha, I would not say Daenerys' Meereen arc suffered with Tyrion too terribly. It suffered in s4 and it was all but destroyed when they cut the war across Slaver's Bay and found no clever way around it. Tyrion hardly made Daenerys' character and arc suffer too much given that it was atrociously written before and an insult to what GRRM did in ADwD with that storyline. Also disagree with this notion Sansa's rape was done forTheon's benefit given that he essentially became a cliffnote in her story arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Sexism and incompetence are not mutually exclusive. Honestly that should be the tagline for the show at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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