Rant and Rave: Dorne Postmortem (Book Spoilers )

[Shuvuuia]

No no I was agreeing with you! Good gods, I'd never do that! (Not to mention I had no idea you were ESL because that's how clear your writing is)

I was talking about Edward Said and how D&D could have benefited from reading Orientalism.

oh, Sorry! I understand it now.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Dorne is the worst storyline of any show's run so far, cable or public tv.

I wouldn't go that far. There are some incredibly awful tv shows out there that make GoT look like The Wire.

But yeah, it was pretty bad. And in terms of tone, there's such a dissonance between Dorne and the other storylines. It's like they took an entirely different show and dropped it inside GoT hoping no one could tell the difference.

And also, I hate to say it, but they did a terrible job location-wise. What good is shooting at the Palace if you have to rush and do things clumsily? And why on earth did they think that the Palace would be all they had to show from Dorne? It was just lazy.

[Le Cygne]

From the last thread:

Re last thread:

Veltigar, Le Cygne and Annara Snow: you all replied to my comment on Spartacus vs GOT, so I wanted to say a big HEY to you lot! It's such a relief to find like-minded souls on such topics.

I am almost tempted to start a Spartacus vs GoT thread! That would be... interesting.

Anyway, I wanted to share my complete agreement on all your points. It's ironic how Spartacus handled sensitive topics like slavery, gender and rape so well, given its 'trash' image among non-watchers. Nudity was equal opportunity (hello, Manu Bennett! :P), rape wasn't there for titillation but to show the extent of exploitation of female and male slaves alike (the Lucretia/Crixus storyline was brilliantly depicted), and the devastating impact it has on the victim (Naevia). Sex, when consensual, was depicted as free, intense, sensual and above all, FUN (see Crixus/Naevia, Gannicus/anyone). Gay and bisexual couples were treated exactly like straight ones (Agron/Nasir, Saxa). Relationships were layered and complex, as in real life (Lucretia and Batiatus is the best example of such).

Throw in some great writing, some incredibly innovative dialogue (Shakespeare with more swearing!) and some gorgeous, talented actors, and what you have is something unique, vastly underrated, and undoubtedly superior to GoT. IMO.

If only Steven S De Knight and similarly gifted people had chosen to work on GoT! It would have been a hell of a show.

It's even funnier to consider that shows generally dismissed as being 'for kids', like Buffy and Angel, have such maturity, character depth and consistency within. Again, no comparison to GoT. I should know; I've been devouring re-watching both of late.

All this to say,these stellar shows had no source material (not counting the Buffy or Spartacus movie for obvious reasons) and they did so well. And GoT had the most incredible source material, only to come up with this?

Sigh. I urge everyone here to watch Spartacus!

I agree with everything you said. I love the way you put that, Gannicus/anyone = Fun. :) True, Stephen Knight would have done a much better job. I think that the show was an action adventure type thing, the finer points were overlooked. Whereas with a show like Game of Thrones, finer points are assumed without merit.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Speaking of Orientalism, one thing I want to get clear is that we -we, I mean those from "exotic" cultures from my side of the world (the better side \m/)- don't get so easily mad by being stereotyped a bit. I mean, those stereotypes come from something and mostly of the times, those things are things we feel proud of. For example, I remember when my government sent Modern Family a letter saying their comment about peruvians was a bit out of line and Sofia Vergara told us to fuck ourselves. That was dreadful, specially in the way they dealt with it. The episode when Lisa Simpson gets a hamster is as funny as the one when they all travelled to Macchu Pichu which was definitely more insulting.

I think it's not that bad if any media uses one or two clichés in the portrayal of a culture. The problem is when you don't research at all and make everything a misconception (take a look at Emperor's New Groove or Crystal Skull). And that's the problem with Dorne. EVERYTHING is fucked up.

[Red Helm]

I wouldn't go that far. There are some incredibly awful tv shows out there that make GoT look like The Wire.

But yeah, it was pretty bad. And in terms of tone, there's such a dissonance between Dorne and the other storylines. It's like they took an entirely different show and dropped it inside GoT hoping no one could tell the difference.

And also, I hate to say it, but they did a terrible job location-wise. What good is shooting at the Palace if you have to rush and do things clumsily? And why on earth did they think that the Palace would be all they had to show from Dorne? It was just lazy.

How expensive is it to film in a sand desert? Any notions? North of the Wall and Dorne have these location problems: north of the Wall should have been far less of a desolate, icy wasteland (seriously, it's like the Lands of Always Winter in s2) and Dorne more desolate.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

The kindest we can think of their decision to have Sansa become Jeyne is that they thought it would service Theon's story best. Which is also concerning. And offensive.

Agreed. And that might have been a point that could be argued if Theon had been the focus of Winterfell story this season. But he really wasn't. Though I will give him some serious eye acting points. But his transition from emotional tattletale to emotional guy who flings Myranda off the walk is kind of abrupt. And Sansa's willingness to die without a corkscrew in her hand didn't show the kind of empowering growth I'd been told to expect after putting her through that kind of horror. Mostly it was the "LF is a bad planner and Ramsay is the star of the show" in Winterfell.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Sansa has been punished from before Tyrion. Remember in Season 1 how she was rude to Septa Mordane despite real Sansa is all kindness and polite? They made her a spoiled brat that needed her dose of reality :dunno:

Martin portrays Sansa as a girl who was sheltered due to her position and age. Yet, he never put her in a bad situation because he wanted to punish her. D&D seem to want to make a point: "all pretty spoiled girls who are into pretty boys need to be grounded". I wonder what a psychologist could think of that.

[Le Cygne]

I respectfully request that posters not be referred to in negative terms for stating their opinions on sexism in the show, this is the rant thread, and this is a common criticism.

I think I've made my feelings on this clear in the past. And while I don't think D&D ever sat down and said to themselves "Sansa rejected Tyrion so let's have her get raped," I do think there is a very disquieting pattern in how they have treated Sansa's character, from "correcting" her behavior back in S3 to have her kneel for and joke with Tyrion, to mentioning what a fantastic and wonderful guy he was 3 seconds before being raped.

It's not exactly a stretch to say "hey, I think they really, really like Tyrion's character." Or that other characters have suffered for his benefit (look at Dany's treatment this year).

I don't think the revenge porn implications are something they even considered. Which speaks volumes in and of itself. Do they think of themselves as sexists? No. Are they? Hell yes. Look at the pattern. And their lack of understanding that this is sexism isn't exactly a positive. No brownie points for "oh they don't mean it." Great, their objective wasn't to denigrate women. Yet somehow they accomplished it all the same.

The kindest we can think of their decision to have Sansa become Jeyne is that they thought it would service Theon's story best. Which is also concerning. And offensive.

I agree. A disturbing pattern, indeed.

There's a trope:

There are several basic ways in which Bob can justify his sense of entitlement...

What they don't do. For example, "She must sleep with me because I wouldn't rape her"...

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EntitledToHaveYou

We have heard for years, "Sansa should have appreciated Tyrion" and far, far worse. And after the episode, people were saying, "it's her fault for not appreciating Tyrion" and far, far worse.

Also, here's another one (like in the movie Revenge of the Nerds):

If a character is beautiful, then that character is a bad person, either publicly or secretly.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeautyIsBad

[RGBeyondAsshai]

And also, I hate to say it, but they did a terrible job location-wise. What good is shooting at the Palace if you have to rush and do things clumsily? And why on earth did they think that the Palace would be all they had to show from Dorne? It was just lazy.

It was. And the filming itself seemed badly done. The crew who worked on the Dorne sections needs to be forced to watch that Sandsnake/Bronn fight gif over and over again as punishment.

[Red Helm]

Agreed. And that might have been a point that could be argued if Theon had been the focus of Winterfell story this season. But he really wasn't. Though I will give him some serious eye acting points. But his transition from emotional tattletale to emotional guy who flings Myranda off the walk is kind of abrupt.

We definitely needed those two annoying actors playing Ramsay and Myranda jumping around naked as oppose to a single heartree scene that would given Bran some presence in s5. Failed to do it with Arya too. Is this incompetence or laziness on Dimwit and Worm's part? Hard to tell.

[Red Helm]

I respectfully request that posters not be referred to in negative terms for stating their opinions on sexism in the show, this is the rant thread, and this is a common criticism.

Then I shall open a new thread, with cyvasse and campfollowers.

[Le Cygne]

Sansa has been punished from before Tyrion. Remember in Season 1 how she was rude to Septa Mordane despite real Sansa is all kindness and polite? They made her a spoiled brat that needed her dose of reality :dunno:

Martin portrays Sansa as a girl who was sheltered due to her position and age. Yet, he never put her in a bad situation because he wanted to punish her. D&D seem to want to make a point: "all pretty spoiled girls who are into pretty boys need to be grounded". I wonder what a psychologist could think of that.

Agreed, this has been going on from the start.

[Cas Stark]

I wouldn't go that far. There are some incredibly awful tv shows out there that make GoT look like The Wire.

But yeah, it was pretty bad. And in terms of tone, there's such a dissonance between Dorne and the other storylines. It's like they took an entirely different show and dropped it inside GoT hoping no one could tell the difference.

And also, I hate to say it, but they did a terrible job location-wise. What good is shooting at the Palace if you have to rush and do things clumsily? And why on earth did they think that the Palace would be all they had to show from Dorne? It was just lazy.

Yeah I was expecting they would shoot all over Seville, exterior shots, etc.

[Cas Stark]

I think I've made my feelings on this clear in the past. And while I don't think D&D ever sat down and said to themselves "Sansa rejected Tyrion so let's have her get raped," I do think there is a very disquieting pattern in how they have treated Sansa's character, from "correcting" her behavior back in S3 to have her kneel for and joke with Tyrion, to mentioning what a fantastic and wonderful guy he was 3 seconds before being raped.

It's not exactly a stretch to say "hey, I think they really, really like Tyrion's character." Or that other characters have suffered for his benefit (look at Dany's treatment this year).

I don't think the revenge porn implications are something they even considered. Which speaks volumes in and of itself. Do they think of themselves as sexists? No. Are they? Hell yes. Look at the pattern. And their lack of understanding that this is sexism isn't exactly a positive. No brownie points for "oh they don't mean it." Great, their objective wasn't to denigrate women. Yet somehow they accomplished it all the same.

The kindest we can think of their decision to have Sansa become Jeyne is that they thought it would service Theon's story best. Which is also concerning. And offensive.

I don't agree w/you guys about Sansa being punished over Tyrion, that's one step too far for me.

But, there was no Theon story. I might have been able to stand a Theon/Sansa story, but we didn't get that. Theon got even less time and lines than Sansa. Winterfell was RAMSAY'S story. Not even Roose's story.

I rewatched that dinner scene, and fucking hell, that was long. Really long. For no purpose except to let Iwan be the crazy jokester. It did nothing else. It was a showcase for him. Completely unncessary. And the next scene was a long scene with Iwan and Roose.

There is a ton of stuff they could have done with Theon and Sansa, but they did none of it. So even that excuse doesn't fly. There was no Theon arc, or Sansa arc.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

I don't agree w/you guys about Sansa being punished over Tyrion, that's one step too far for me.

But, there was no Theon story. I might have been able to stand a Theon/Sansa story, but we didn't get that. Theon got even less time and lines than Sansa. Winterfell was RAMSAY'S story. Not even Roose's story.

I rewatched that dinner scene, and fucking hell, that was long. Really long. For no purpose except to let Iwan be the crazy jokester. It did nothing else. It was a showcase for him. Completely unncessary. And the next scene was a long scene with Iwan and Roose.

There is a ton of stuff they could have done with Theon and Sansa, but they did none of it. So even that excuse doesn't fly. There was no Theon arc, or Sansa arc.

:agree:

[Red Helm]

But, there was no Theon story. I might have been able to stand a Theon/Sansa story, but we didn't get that. Theon got even less time and lines than Sansa. Winterfell was RAMSAY'S story. Not even Roose's story.

I rewatched that dinner scene, and fucking hell, that was long. Really long. For no purpose except to let Iwan be the crazy jokester. It did nothing else. It was a showcase for him. Completely unncessary. And the next scene was a long scene with Iwan and Roose.

It all reminds me of what Hannibal did with Verger last year by construing him into a Joker-like figure. And of course he goes into a battle wearing only a leather coat... amazing.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Let's not get OT (we'll get to Winterfell eventually) but...

I rewatched that dinner scene, and fucking hell, that was long. Really long. For no purpose except to let Iwan be the crazy jokester. It did nothing else. It was a showcase for him. Completely unncessary. And the next scene was a long scene with Iwan and Roose.

I think they tried to recreate Joffrey's popularity and it's simply not working.

The difference is that Jack Gleeson is very young and have a very angelical face. That makes for quite a singular type of villain. It's like having the bully from your school being the president. You know it won't end up good for you.

Joffrey was also a credible villain because he never did anything that required tons of suspense of disbelief. He didn't ride 20 men against Robb Stark: Tywin won his battles and Tyrion ruled KL on his name. That's another reason he was peculiar: he was very disconnected with reality and we saw that when he told Jaime "oh, yeah, I won the war while you were a prisoner, lol". It fleshed him out as a real person and make people feel a small connection with him as he was also a spoiled brat who knew little of the world.

Ramsay is not disconnected from reality. His character is not realistic. He's an over the top villain who belongs more in a very dark(er) storyline of Batman. He's also something we've seen many times before. Joffrey was one of a kind type of antagonist.

[Red Helm]

Even if they ever they did a passable job with Sansa in Winterfell, it would still be fundamentally wrong given how inferior Sansa and her position as a highborn is in that arc as oppose to Jeyne. And of course removing Sansa from the Vale so early. It was never going to work well, even if they could have done so much better than what they actually produced. Even having Sansa not raped in Bolton-infested Winterfell would have been very stupid in most scenarios. It was always going to be wrong.

[Red Helm]

Let's not get OT (we'll get to Winterfell eventually) but...

I think they tried to recreate Joffrey's popularity and it's simply not working.

The difference is that Jack Gleeson is very young and have a very angelical face. That makes for quite a singular type of villain. It's like having the bully from your school being the president. You know it won't end up good for you.

And I always thought he did a good job at having this evil demon-spawn face the entire time... my God, demon-spawns are actually lil sweethearts.

[Cas Stark]

Let's not get OT (we'll get to Winterfell eventually) but...

I think they tried to recreate Joffrey's popularity and it's simply not working.

The difference is that Jack Gleeson is very young and have a very angelical face. That makes for quite a singular type of villain. It's like having the bully from your school being the president. You know it won't end up good for you.

Joffrey was also a credible villain because he never did anything that required tons of suspense of disbelief. He didn't ride 20 men against Robb Stark: Tywin won his battles and Tyrion ruled KL on his name. That's another reason he was peculiar: he was very disconnected with reality and we saw that when he told Jaime "oh, yeah, I won the war while you were a prisoner, lol". It fleshed him out as a real person and make people feel a small connection with him as he was also a spoiled brat who knew little of the world.

Ramsay is not disconnected from reality. His character is not realistic. He's an over the top villain who belongs more in a very dark(er) storyline of Batman. He's also something we've seen many times before. Joffrey was one of a kind type of antagonist.

Yeah, it's another character they don't get.

People could hate Joff because despite being king of westeros, he's a totally relable character most of the time. He boasts, he lies, he picks on people weaker than he is, he's inwardly a coward, he's vain, his money and his family protect him from his worst excesses. Minus the murder of Ros, he could be put in khaki and play the same guy as generic rich asshole.

Ramsay is a real villain, he tortured Theon and cut off his penis, hello. He hunted his ex girlfriend and fed her to the dogs. And so far, we don't see any weakness. He's also been made into a badass brave and capable warrior.

But, he can't replace Tywin as that type of villain either, because he's too jokey and crazy and Tywin never showed any overt perversions like that.

So, it's weird and clumsy what they have done.