Rant and Rave: Dorne Postmortem (Book Spoilers )

[Newstar]

Give me a fucking break with the nonsense about D&D's enthusiasm for revenge porn by inflicting misery on Sansa for her haughty ambitions, while praising GRRM's supposedly sensitive treatment in the books. Did you even read AGOT? That's precisely the flavour that Sansa's horrible KL sufferings have in AGOT, which, unlike in the show, are partly caused by her own conscious actions, by one of the few occasions of her exercise of this "agency" I keep hearing so much about. In fact, the outline suggests that that's precisely what GRRM had in mind: the outline explicitly states that Outline Sansa's "treasonous" tendencies and her picking Joffrey and her child with him is something she comes to "regret" which winds up in the books as her running to Cersei and being put in a position where she's constantly being beaten and threatened by Joffrey, as well as sexually humiliated in one instance.

Criticize the show all you like, but stop playing armchair psychologist about D&D's supposed deep-seated desire to inflict suffering on Sansa, either for their own lecherous needs to sexualize Sophie Turner for their own sexual gratification as some have suggested--classy as always, I see--or as a result of their own internalized misogyny, unless you're prepared to level the same accusations at GRRM. You are embarrassing yourselves.

[Le Cygne]

Brienne and Jaime...

give me my Red Ronnet slap, HBO!!! o9 o9 o9

I know. There are certain scenes, I'd write a nice fat check to see, and that's one of them. NCW would have been perfect in that scene.

Call her by her name. Call her Brienne. (Only I can mess with her, but I'm special that way.)

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I know. There are certain scenes, I'd write a nice fat check to see, and that's one of them. NCW would have been perfect in that scene.

Call her by her name. Call her Brienne. (Only I can mess with her, but I'm special that way.)

Ah, how I wish we had "I dreamed of you"

[RGBeyondAsshai]

I know. There are certain scenes, I'd write a nice fat check to see, and that's one of them. NCW would have been perfect in that scene.

Call her by her name. Call her Brienne. (Only I can mess with her, but I'm special that way.)

Yes!

[The Northern Scholar]

Oh my goodness. How did I miss this thread?! I don't have time to go back over the first 11 pages so apologies in advance if I tread over ground already covered.

On the topic of sexuality, I've always wondered why D&D have chosen to take out the lesbian scenes from Cersei and Dany's plots. I'm not trying to come at this from some perverted desire to see that on TV. It has just struck me as odd that a show that includes nudity at every possible chance would ignore something like this. It's such an interesting part of Cersei's angle, too, since it really reaffirms some of her misogynist and distorted thinking.

Did you see what Amanda Peet (Benioff's wife) wrote defending the show?

"I think it’s really misplaced. They write some of the greatest female characters that are on television. It’s a misogynist world, this world that George R. R. Martin created, but we have to experience it without thinking that people are condoning this.

It’s much more insidious to have middling, ancillary female roles where the women are not part of the plot — where they don’t advance anything. Wife roles, girlfriend roles, there are very few of those in ‘Game of Thrones.’ If someone takes their clothes off and it’s a massive part of the plot? So be it."

Right, because Tyene's bewbs were an essential - essential, I say! - part of the plot.

I love (?) that GoT is now intrinsically linked with misogyny. Like, that's the general perception people have of the show now. The backlash is real, to the point that even Benioff's wife has to comment on the issue.

Yeah, there's a role for nudity and sex in a show like this and in Martin's world. But it just gets tiresome when it's done gratuitously "because they can." The only explanation I can come up with for the scene with Tyene is to introduce the idea that they use poison to foreshadow Myrcella's death. But that's just clunky and bad writing so I don't really want to believe it.

[Le Cygne]

Ah, how I wish we had "I dreamed of you"

Ah... The perfect ending to that chapter. That's got to be one of my favorite chapters in the series. Another was Dany's last chapter in ADWD. Which was reduced to, Take me back. No? I'll get some food. Ruh Roh! (Drops elven brooch ring.)

[RGBeyondAsshai]

Ah... The perfect ending to that chapter. That's got to be one of my favorite chapters in the series. Another was Dany's last chapter in ADWD. Which was reduced to, Take me back. No? I'll get some food. Ruh Roh! (Drops elven brooch ring.)

I think I'm just here to agree with everything you say lol

:agree:

Particularly when it comes to Tarth-gazing Jaime.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Curious about this statement, because at the end of the day GoT is really just a TV show. Yes it is "based" (I use this term loosely due to season 5) on ASOIAF, and I don't want to make this a 'faithful adaptation' discussion, but there is an assload of adapted material from page to screen out there going back decades that I'm sure we have all watched and probably did not know it was adapted from a book or short story. If someone likes something and want to defend it, that is their right. Just because I've watched The Running Man and haven't read the book, doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion about it. And yeah, I know it's a cheesy ass movie, but dammit I can't help but like it.

I was referring to the citation presented in a previous page. It's a person saying that the show is like Martin's world. It is not.

What I meant to say -maybe I didn't explain myself very well -is that when the show and the books are compared, people doing it should read the books first. And understand them. That's D&D's main mistake: they keep using the books as base and as a justification for their changes, but nowhere in the books their statements are backed, like Stannis being "ambitious".

For example, take Cuaron. He never read Children of Men. He said he wanted to portray his vision about the story and only used the books as references after reading the script and only used what he believed was the main theme. That's fine for me because at least he's honest. That is not D&D's case. They should stop saying they are doing things according to Martin because they are not.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Ah... The perfect ending to that chapter. That's got to be one of my favorite chapters in the series. Another was Dany's last chapter in ADWD. Which was reduced to, Take me back. No? I'll get some food. Ruh Roh! (Drops elven brooch ring.)

Mine too. I'm not even big on Jaime, but I just loved that scene. And it wasn't hard at all to adapt.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

Dorne sucked because it was simplistic in the extreme and there were no real stakes. Had Bronn died from the Snakes poison, as he should have, then the meeting between Doran, Ellaria and Jamie would've have real tension and again, there would be stakes in play to make things interesting. It also would've made Doran's decidering more of a thing. As it stands Myrcella died, but only because Jamie and Doran were foolish enough (in a 20 good men way) to let Ellaria within arm's reach. Speaking of which, why not just stab her on the docks? A lot more dramatic, might get Jamie to attack Doran, and then you'd certainly get your war. Or are we to believe no one will figure out Ellaria was responsible?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Trying to keep OT with Dorne, I feel that D&D wanted to make it the "comic relief" of the storyline, which... well, to each their own.

But taking Jaime there is a very strange decision because Jaime doesn't belong in that kind of arc. He's one of the main characters and despite his smartass humour, he's a very tragic character with a very tragic storyline. Because, really, I would love to know what part of Feast they read that made them believe Jaime could fit a "Scooby Doo rescue-like" plot? Where is he some sort of funny guy that could pull out something like that? :dunno:

[Le Cygne]

I think I'm just here to agree with everything you say lol

:agree:

Particularly when it comes to Tarth-gazing Jaime.

I could talk about Tarth-gazing Jaime all night. :lol:

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Trying to keep OT with Dorne, I feel that D&D wanted to make it the "comic relief" of the storyline, which... well, to each their own.

But taking Jaime there is a very strange decision because Jaime doesn't belong in that kind of arc. He's one of the main characters and despite his smartass humour, he's a very tragic character with a very tragic storyline. Because, really, I would love to know what part of Feast they read that made them believe Jaime could fit a "Scooby Doo rescue-like" plot? Where is he some sort of funny guy that could pull out something like that? :dunno:

Honestly, even Brienne in Dorne would have worked better. I think if Dorne's main goal was just to kill off Myrcella, then cut Dorne, go to the Riverlands and kill Myrcella off-screen.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

Trying to keep OT with Dorne, I feel that D&D wanted to make it the "comic relief" of the storyline, which... well, to each their own.

But taking Jaime there is a very strange decision because Jaime doesn't belong in that kind of arc. He's one of the main characters and despite his smartass humour, he's a very tragic character with a very tragic storyline. Because, really, I would love to know what part of Feast they read that made them believe Jaime could fit a "Scooby Doo rescue-like" plot? Where is he some sort of funny guy that could pull out something like that? :dunno:

I said this before. Sticking him in Dorne was like a punishment and definitely an insult to his character arc so far. They could have fixed it-A little at least-if he'd spent more time with Myrcella. If he'd had a talk with Ellaria about the importance of children instead of--yeah we're cool with incest here. A talk with Doran about siblings with strong personalities. Something.

[Joe Pesci]

I was referring to the citation presented in a previous page. It's a person saying that the show is like Martin's world. It is not.

What I meant to say -maybe I didn't explain myself very well -is that when the show and the books are compared, people doing it should read the books first. And understand them. That's D&D's main mistake: they keep using the books as base and as a justification for their changes, but nowhere in the books their statements are backed, like Stannis being "ambitious".

For example, take Cuaron. He never read Children of Men. He said he wanted to portray his vision about the story and only used the books as references after reading the script and only used what he believed was the main theme. That's fine for me because at least he's honest. That is not D&D's case. They should stop saying they are doing things according to Martin because they are not.

Gotcha, totally agree. Though I sometimes I think when D&D say they are doing things according to GRRM, they use it to mean that they may well be following an overall outline, but the body of the outline is different than GRRMs. Just my opinion though.

Edit: On topic, as someone else stated, the total lack of chemistry between anyone in Dorne. It may have helped somewhat if there was anything remotely approaching, say the chemistry of Tyrion/Bronn, but alas, all for not.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Honestly, even Brienne in Dorne would have worked better. I think if Dorne's main goal was just to kill off Myrcella, then cut Dorne, go to the Riverlands and kill Myrcella off-screen.

Brienne in Dorne would be a good great for having her ponder about what it means to be a woman and a warrior. She's in this place where women aren't labelled and few people would judge her.

But, with D&D in charge, it would be just awkward.

I said this before. Sticking him in Dorne was like a punishment and definitely an insult to his character arc so far. They could have fixed it-A little at least-if he'd spent more time with Myrcella. If he'd had a talk with Ellaria about the importance of children instead of--yeah we're cool with incest here. A talk with Doran about siblings with strong personalities. Something.

A TALK ABOUT RHAEGAR TARGARYEN HAS THE SHOW FORGOTTEN WHO HE IS?

Speaking of Rhaegar Targaryen... can this guy play him?

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

I'd also point out that Bronn rightfully points out how half-assed Jamie's plan (or lack thereof) is, however there end up being no real consequences for Jamie's impulsiveness. They pull off their infiltration with little issue, got out of it with little issue, and Myrcella's death wasn't due to shit planning and a seat of your pants rescue attempt, but due to things beyond Jamie's control. The fact Bronn made it out in one piece irks me, because at least the plot could've been about Jamie learning the consequences of repeating the sin of hubris, and maybe it would've stuck this time.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

//

[Le Cygne]

Trying to keep OT with Dorne, I feel that D&D wanted to make it the "comic relief" of the storyline, which... well, to each their own.

But taking Jaime there is a very strange decision because Jaime doesn't belong in that kind of arc. He's one of the main characters and despite his smartass humour, he's a very tragic character with a very tragic storyline. Because, really, I would love to know what part of Feast they read that made them believe Jaime could fit a "Scooby Doo rescue-like" plot? Where is he some sort of funny guy that could pull out something like that? :dunno:

Agree. He's funny in a snarky way, but he needs his sidekick, Brienne. That's when all the good sparks fly. Friction. Chemistry!

Then again they didn't read Feast. Neither one of them knew Sam was a POV.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

A TALK ABOUT RHAEGAR TARGARYEN HAS THE SHOW FORGOTTEN WHO HE IS?

Right. They could have talked about the Daynes--Jaime really admires Arthur Dayne, maybe Doran would ask why Jaime didn't protect his sister and her children... or say it offhand so we knew he was actually related to Oberyn.