Why All The Walder Frey Hate?

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

"On my honor as a Tully," she told Lord Walder, "on my honor as a Stark, I will trade your boys life for Robbs. A son for a son." Her hand shook so badly she was ringing Jinglebells head.

Boom, the drum sounded, boom doom boom doom. The old mans lips went in and out. The knife trembled in Catelyns hand, slippery with sweat. "A son for a son, heh," he repeated. "But thats a grandson... and he never was much use."

A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her sons heart, and twisted.

Robb had broken his word, but Catelyn kept hers. She tugged hard on Aegons hair and sawed at his neck until the blade grated on bone. Blood ran hot over her fingers. His little bells were ringing, ringing, ringing, and the drum went boom doom boom.

Walter doesn't care if his family members are killed

How can you jump to that assumption when you are reading Catelyn`s POV? If you only know one side of a story you can`t be objective

[Trigger Warning]

As much of a scumbag as Walder Frey is I don't get why he gets ragged on for behaving like a feudal lord in a feudal setting in regards to his initial neutrality and marriage pacts.

The Tullys themselves chose marriage alliances over their king.

[Frey Pie]

Meh Janos Slynt deserves far more pity and love then Walder Frey.

The point on where the Frey oath of allegiance lies is one which can be contested. I have seen it debated multiple times. Tbh I don't know the answer but I believe the oath to House Tully should trump Walder's oath to the Crown. This is mostly due the fact that many of the posters I know to be knowledgeable on such matters say the Tully oath

Walder provided food and wine to the men outside. Music and tent's. He slaughtered them all and broke guest rite to them all.

Robb deserved to be deserted. Not slaughtered with his men. His men deserved neither

[ShadowCat Rivers]

It seems obvious to me that Roose Bolton is blackmailing Walder into the RW with the lives of little Walder and big Walder at WF. He does what any grandfather would do. So why does he get zero sympathy on here?

Because we are an unimaginative lot that takes everything at face value.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The point on where the Frey oath of allegiance lies is one which can be contested. I have seen it debated multiple times. Tbh I don't know the answer but I believe the oath to House Tully should trump Walder's oath to the Crown. This is mostly due the fact that many of the posters I know to be knowledgeable on such matters say the Tully oath

How does that make any sense. It was the Crown who gave the Tully's Overlordship of the Riverlands.

At work if the owner of the company sacks the manager do you carry on taking orders from the sacked manager against the wishes of the owner? Now imagine if that manager had been mocking you for a long time?

Walder provided food and wine to the men outside. Music and tent's. He slaughtered them all and broke guest rite to them all.

Guest rights does not extend outside of the settlement. Robb offered food to the bannermen who came to Winterfell in AGOT and we know that outside of Winterfell a Cerwyn man was killed by Bolton men.

Guest rights only extend inside the settlement, not the entire lands they rule.

Robb deserved to be deserted. Not slaughtered with his men. His men deserved neither

Robb deserved to be killed for the deaths of Stevron and Tion Frey.

I agree his men did not deserve it, but then they didn't deserve being forced to go and fight a war in the first place. Sadly vassals often suffer for the whims of liege lord.

[devilish]

I fail to understand how naive the wardens of the North and the Riverlands were. So you've got this banner man, whose sitting on a gold mine which also happens to be the main link between the North (the Riverlands biggest ally) and the Riverlands and whom he had already shown that he's not very loyal. Under such circumstances you've got two options

a - convince the King/friend/drinking mate to remove him, give the land to the Tully and who knows maybe give some castle to Emmon Frey instead to appease the Lannister

b - try and treat him with respect in the hope that you'll find him when you need him.

Instead Hoster lived most of his life taunting the old man and Robb went on breaking his vows with him. FFS what's wrong in trying to appease the old guy? Hoster could marry a Frey girl once he grew old while Benjen could have been granted some land and made to marry a Frey girl instead of spending his life playing boy scout at the wall. That would have appeased Walder enough not to act stupid.

There again, I never understood the North. For example They have more trees than anyone can count but they have no fleet and they expect all bannermen to act in line without actually helping them. For example what's wrong in not offering Arya Stark in marriage the Lord of Dreadfort? The Boltons and the Starks would join houses, Roose would have a wife and children which even Ramsey Snow would think twice to hurt (ie he would be hunted like an animal by the entire North) and everyone would live happily ever after

[Frey Pie]

How does that make any sense. It was the Crown who gave the Tully's Overlordship of the Riverlands.

At work if the owner of the company sacks the manager do you carry on taking orders from the sacked manager against the wishes of the owner? Now imagine if that manager had been mocking you for a long time?

Guest rights does not extend outside of the settlement. Robb offered food to the bannermen who came to Winterfell in AGOT and we know that outside of Winterfell a Cerwyn man was killed by Bolton men.

Guest rights only extend inside the settlement, not the entire lands they rule.

Robb deserved to be killed for the deaths of Stevron and Tion Frey.

I agree his men did not deserve it, but then they didn't deserve being forced to go and fight a war in the first place. Sadly vassals often suffer for the whims of liege lord.

It makes sense to me because I highly doubt every new lord goes to KL to swear an oath. Would a new Mormont Lord? A new Yronwood? Or would they go to their respective capitals and swear an oath to their liege? I think the second is more likely. So the way I see it is the great lords swear to the king, the vassals swear to the great lord. Admittedly this is not always the case such as the Stormlords after the Blackwater. From the wiki:

Liege, the primary lord of a vassal who holds by military tenure. The liege lord and vassal each have responsibilities to one another; the vassal must remain loyal to the liege lord above any other lords, while the liege is the vassal's principal protector.

Which seems to back up my point. Obviously I don't know for sure and I don't think anyone does. A lot depends on ones relations and geography

The Cerwyn and Bolton example wouldn't be breaking guest right. The two were part of an army. Robb had granted them guest right but didn't kill them or order them killed:

When invoked, neither the guest can harm his host nor the host harm his guest for the length of the guest's stay.

And I think not including the outside tents is stretching to breaking point. So I can give someone bread and salt and a roof over there heads but if it's not specifically at my table it doesn't count? Huge gigantically massive loop hole if true

Robb doesn't deserve to die for them. Does he deserve to die for all the Hornwood men who fought and died? Mallister? To say do is ridiculous.

He should have been shamed for what he did which was break his promise. He should have lost his vassals and been abandoned by the Freys. at the very most he should have been the subject of an assassination, making it personal as the betrayal was

[Frey Pie]

I fail to understand how naive the wardens of the North and the Riverlands were. So you've got this banner man, whose sitting on a gold mine which also happens to be the main link between the North (the Riverlands biggest ally) and the Riverlands and whom he had already shown that he's not very loyal. Under such circumstances you've got two options

a - convince the King/friend/drinking mate to remove him, give the land to the Tully and who knows maybe give some castle to Emmon Frey instead to appease the Lannister

b - try and treat him with respect in the hope that you'll find him when you need him.

Instead Hoster lived most of his life taunting the old man and Robb went on breaking his vows with him. FFS what's wrong in trying to appease the old guy? Hoster could marry a Frey girl once he grew old while Benjen could have been granted some land and made to marry a Frey girl instead of spending his life playing boy scout at the wall. That would have appeased Walder enough not to act stupid.

There again, I never understood the North. For example They have more trees than anyone can count but they have no fleet and they expect all bannermen to act in line without actually helping them. For example what's wrong in not offering Arya Stark in marriage the Lord of Dreadfort? The Boltons and the Starks would join houses, Roose would have a wife and children which even Ramsey Snow would think twice to hurt (ie he would be hunted like an animal by the entire North) and everyone would live happily ever after

All fair points. Question is are we going to put this down to lack of depth in world building and thought or poor leadership? Given we know that Hoster was a canny politician and Ned was lived at home (visited lords a lot) I would say these are things that are just overlooked or unexplained....could be wrong though

[thelittledragonthatcould]

It makes sense to me because I highly doubt every new lord goes to KL to swear an oath. Would a new Mormont Lord? A new Yronwood? Or would they go to their respective capitals and swear an oath to their liege? I think the second is more likely. So the way I see it is the great lords swear to the king, the vassals swear to the great lord. Admittedly this is not always the case such as the Stormlords after the Blackwater. From the wiki:

Who do you think was the last person Walder swore an oath to; the Tullys or Baratheons?

It is far more likely to be the King and not his liege lord.

The Cerwyn and Bolton example wouldn't be breaking guest right. The two were part of an army. Robb had granted them guest right but didn't kill them or order them killed:

How does trmy sitting outside the Twins not count as an 'army'?

Guest rights is not about the host killing them but offering them protection. Inside the Twins it does would still count as breaking guest rights if Roose and his men killed every single guest.

And I think not including the outside tents is stretching to breaking point. So I can give someone bread and salt and a roof over there heads but if it's not specifically at my table it doesn't count? Huge gigantically massive loop hole if true

Not really.

When a guest, be he common born or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof, the guest right is invoked.

The soldiers outside the Twins were not under Walders roof or at his table. It is stretching it to say they were.

Robb doesn't deserve to die for them. Does he deserve to die for all the Hornwood men who fought and died? Mallister? To say do is ridiculous.

Did he make a promise to those men and purposefully break it after those men had died for his cause?

If so, then sure.

He should have been shamed for what he did which was break his promise. He should have lost his vassals and been abandoned by the Freys. at the very most he should have been the subject of an assassination, making it personal as the betrayal was

In a perfect world they'd all react like that. It is not a perfect world, they are all petty fucks focused on revenge.

"Why not a peace?" Catelyn asked.

You are a woman, my lady," the Greatjon rumbled in his deep voice. "Women do not understand these things."

"You are the gentle sex," said Lord Karstark, with the lines of grief fresh on his face. "A man has a need for vengeance."

The men of Westeros, Walder and Robb included, dont consider shame a punishment.

[maniacmcgoo]

For some reason it appears that my quoting ability is not working so I will do my best without it

@LittleDragonthatcould

I'm in the middle of reading the books again and I've just finished with the capture of Jaime Lannister. I suggest you curtail your ignorant accusations you flaming troll. I made some thoughtful comments yet you respond with attacks.

There is a vast chasm of difference in dying in battle as the Freys did and having your head lopped off by a spawn of adultery and incest for stating the truth. Are you a raging fool or are you just too stupid to know the difference? I think the latter honestly.

Walder IS a coward (or craven in this setting if you prefer). He was dubbed The Late Walder Frey because he refused to march out until the battle was decided because he was to cowardly to pick a side before knowing who would eventually win. Not all cowards flee some just wait until the fighting is done like Walder the coward Frey.

Walder was not Justified as you stupidly claim he had his reasons sure but violating ancient traditions such as guest right because you feel slighted is Churlish, vile and wholly repugnant much like your attempts to defend him. I'm sure you think Ramsay Bolton is the best character ever since you apparently love the more vile persons in all of Westeros.

/rant

Edited to tone down my response

[Frey Pie]

Who do you think was the last person Walder swore an oath to; the Tullys or Baratheons?

It is far more likely to be the King and not his liege lord.

How does trmy sitting outside the Twins not count as an 'army'?

Guest rights is not about the host killing them but offering them protection. Inside the Twins it does would still count as breaking guest rights if Roose and his men killed every single guest.

Not really.

When a guest, be he common born or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof, the guest right is invoked.

The soldiers outside the Twins were not under Walders roof or at his table. It is stretching it to say they were.

Did he make a promise to those men and purposefully break it after those men had died for his cause?

If so, then sure.

In a perfect world they'd all react like that. It is not a perfect world, they are all petty fucks focused on revenge.

"Why not a peace?" Catelyn asked.

You are a woman, my lady," the Greatjon rumbled in his deep voice. "Women do not understand these things."

"You are the gentle sex," said Lord Karstark, with the lines of grief fresh on his face. "A man has a need for vengeance."

The men of Westeros, Walder and Robb included, dont consider shame a punishment.

Likely Robert Baratheon but never Joffrey Baratheon. Joffrey Baratheon who had then approved the assault of Frey lands and the Riverlands. The fact that he had sworn to Hoster Tully and not Joffrey Baratheon would lead me to believe his oath is that much more strong to the Tully's. Or are we forgetting that Walder says he was going to go help Edmure anyway? That he was on his way when the battle was already lost? He'd already decided to side with his liege

Walder would not be held accountable if it had been Roose working on his own. If it was a surprise to him. Same goes fro robb and the situation in Winterfell. Neither can be compared to what actually happened in the red wedding

Walder gave them temporary accommodation and welcomed them into his home, under temporary roofs which were owned by Walder and which was all done by his order. He them systematically slaughtered 3500 men for a slight to his honour for which he had been recompensed (whether this was enough or not is up for debate)

Each lord promises riches fame and glory to those who follow them. Sometimes they promise justice and invoke duty. Is Tywin at fault for making stupid decision and getting some of his men killed? How about Stannis for the bastard of nightsong on the Blackwater? How about ned for sending Beric out to the Riverlands to bring the promise of justice which is now broken? Does Davos hold him accountable for his sons death? No. You can't hold commander's accountable for every death which are caused by there poor decisions whether this is at a personal level or not

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

It is revealed that Roose had planned this "Red Wedding" in detail withLothar Frey, including the choice of songs

Taken from Roose`s bio page. Can`t see any mention of Wally there

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't agree with Walder at killing all the army, I believe that he should had killed only Robb and maybe Cat.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

I don't agree with Walder at killing all the army, I believe that he should had killed only Robb and maybe Cat.

Was a lot of the killing of the troops outside not because of the Bolton and Karstarks involvement? And they weren`t planning on killing Cat

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Edited to tone down my response

lol That was it toned down.

I'm sorry dude, but it's pointless discussing with you when you are this angry over fictional characters, so much so that you can't figure out how to use the quote button.

I'd offer a response to your vitriol but I'm a little worried for your own safety and the people around you.

Likely Robert Baratheon but never Joffrey Baratheon. Joffrey Baratheon who had then approved the assault of Frey lands and the Riverlands. The fact that he had sworn to Hoster Tully and not Joffrey Baratheon would lead me to believe his oath is that much more strong to the Tully's. Or are we forgetting that Walder says he was going to go help Edmure anyway? That he was on his way when the battle was already lost? He'd already decided to side with his liege

Vows dont disapear when Kings/Lords die and their heirs take over. All previous vows seem to be intact otherwise what is the point of Robb writing a will when they can all ignore it once he's dead.

He was going to help Edmure when it was Tywin Lannister of the Westerlands attacking. By the time Robb got there it was Tywin Lannister Hand of the King and Walder's position had rightly changed.

"You swore an oath to my father," Catelyn reminded him.

He bobbed his head side to side, smiling. "Oh, yes, I said some words, but I swore oaths to the crown too, it seems to me. Joffrey's the king now, and that makes you and your boy and all those fools out there no better than rebels."

He could have argued either was right, technically there is no right or wrong vow. Clearly there had been a hostile relationship with the Tullys, why should he betray his oath to the crown for a family that resented him?

Walder would not be held accountable if it had been Roose working on his own. If it was a surprise to him. Same goes fro robb and the situation in Winterfell. Neither can be compared to what actually happened in the red wedding

Yes, not inside the Twins. Outside the Twins was still a betrayal but not breaking guest rights.

Walder gave them temporary accommodation and welcomed them into his home, under temporary roofs which were owned by Walder and which was all done by his order. He them systematically slaughtered 3500 men for a slight to his honour for which he had been recompensed (whether this was enough or not is up for debate)

No he didnt. The soldiers were outside his home.

He broke guest rights for the many he welcomed inside the Twins, not the 3,500 outside.

Each lord promises riches fame and glory to those who follow them. Sometimes they promise justice and invoke duty. Is Tywin at fault for making stupid decision and getting some of his men killed? How about Stannis for the bastard of nightsong on the Blackwater? How about ned for sending Beric out to the Riverlands to bring the promise of justice which is now broken? Does Davos hold him accountable for his sons death? No. You can't hold commander's accountable for every death which are caused by there poor decisions whether this is at a personal level or not

You take each case by case.

The Freys would never have fought for Robb without that promise. Robb betrayed that promise even after Frey men had died for his lies.

He was accountable.

"You have done House Frey a grievous insult, Robb."

"I never meant to. Ser Stevron died for me"

This is not a case of Walder being upset but all the Freys, from the Crag to Riverrun being angry with this betrayal.

Many Lords, Robb included, cant get over the loss of family members and want vengeance for it. Walder is no different.

"...the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again"

Robb thought a simple apology would be enough, I doubt he would have ever accepted an apology from Joffrey Lannister over the death is his father yet Walder should for Stevron and Tion Frey

[GHOSTSTARK]

i dislike Walder Frey only because i watched the show before i read the books and saw that Walder was Filch

[Adaneth]

He bobbed his head side to side, smiling. "Oh, yes, I said some words, but I swore oaths to the crown too,

I think we can all agree that he didn't give a damn about oaths, whoever it was he swore oaths to.

[Sullen]

Oh FFS. We need the next book already to stop this madness.

The notion that Slynt was the victim of Westerosi elitism is not without basis though, Janos really was. As was Walder Frey, really.

Also, up until the Red Wedding, Walder did nothing wrong, including his negotiations with Robb for a Crossing. People seem to ignore the fact that Robb is essentially telling to rise against the Realm, or that he'll fuck him up otherwise, Walder simply stood his ground, which I think was fair.

[Frey Pie]

lol That was it toned down.

I'm sorry dude, but it's pointless discussing with you when you are this angry over fictional characters, so much so that you can't figure out how to use the quote button.

I'd offer a response to your vitriol but I'm a little worried for your own safety and the people around you.

Vows dont disapear when Kings/Lords die and their heirs take over. All previous vows seem to be intact otherwise what is the point of Robb writing a will when they can all ignore it once he's dead.

He was going to help Edmure when it was Tywin Lannister of the Westerlands attacking. By the time Robb got there it was Tywin Lannister Hand of the King and Walder's position had rightly changed.

"You swore an oath to my father," Catelyn reminded him.

He bobbed his head side to side, smiling. "Oh, yes, I said some words, but I swore oaths to the crown too, it seems to me. Joffrey's the king now, and that makes you and your boy and all those fools out there no better than rebels."

He could have argued either was right, technically there is no right or wrong vow. Clearly there had been a hostile relationship with the Tullys, why should he betray his oath to the crown for a family that resented him?

Yes, not inside the Twins. Outside the Twins was still a betrayal but not breaking guest rights.

No he didnt. The soldiers were outside his home.

He broke guest rights for the many he welcomed inside the Twins, not the 3,500 outside.

You take each case by case.

The Freys would never have fought for Robb without that promise. Robb betrayed that promise even after Frey men had died for his lies.

He was accountable.

"You have done House Frey a grievous insult, Robb."

"I never meant to. Ser Stevron died for me"

This is not a case of Walder being upset but all the Freys, from the Crag to Riverrun being angry with this betrayal.

Many Lords, Robb included, cant get over the loss of family members and want vengeance for it. Walder is no different.

"...the King in the North arises. Seems we killed some of your men, Your Grace. Oh, but I'll make you an apology, that will mend them all again"

Robb thought a simple apology would be enough, I doubt he would have ever accepted an apology from Joffrey Lannister over the death is his father yet Walder should for Stevron and Tion Frey

You should have seen it before it was toned do😉

Robb will was written by him with his lords around him. It's his last word on the matter of succession and so binding. When was Joffrey declared heir by the King? Roberts will was torn up and Joffrey was declared king by his mother. That is the difference in oaths right there. Walder swore an oath to Hoster not Joffrey.

Tbh the fact that I believe we can both argue good points on both the oaths and guest rights makes it obvious that as such so far we don't have a clear answer. I honestly believe that Walder broke guest rights to all of Robb's men, which makes the crime worse then it already was

But it wasn't just an apology. Walder had sworn to follow robb as his king. He received an apology from his king and reparations in marriage and Edmure. He made his king bow to him. That's a lot different to Joffrey saying sorry for Ned.

To cap it off he could have asked robb for anything. Land, money, more marriages etc etc. He was stiffed by Tywin when they made there agreement imho

[Blackfish Tully]

Considering the fact that Walder has lost 5 sons and 3 grandsons (i could be wrong about the number) since the Red Wedding it looks like whether or not you think he was justified in what he did it certainly wasn't the smartest thing for him to do if he truly cared about his children and grandchildren.

As for Stevron Frey there is a good chance that Black Walder is the one who actually killed him or had him killed . He took a wound in battle that was not thought to be serious and was found dead in his tent three days later . Sound like somebody used the pillow on the face trick on him.