Why All The Walder Frey Hate?

[Hoppy Hour]

Robb raised his banners in response to the murder of stark bannerman and the arrest or his father and sisters. Then he sat at Moat Cailan. Until word reached him of the need to break Lannister attack on his grandfather's keep. The letter he received from Sansa made it clear to him at least that there would be no justice for Ned and that they needed to move.

Robb's so called betrayal did not merit Walder's actions only a sick mind could believe otherwise. The breaking of the guest right has, more likely than not doomed his family. Especially with the mounting evidence that the God's actually do stuff in Westeros. Even if the gods themselves didn't exact their revenge after the war the Frey line will struggle mightily to make a match of any quality with any family. Combine that with the fact that Walder Frey is a coward does not bode well for him or his family.

Walder Frey is a detestable human being, he has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. He and Roose are two of the very few characters in the entire series that are truly evil. You claim he is in the right because he was slighted well then, Ser Dontos has every right to slay Joffrey for making him his court Jester. Tyrion would have every right to murder Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey and Sansa will be in the right if she slays every noble who stopped speaking to her after Ned's arrest. Such thinking is childish.

:agree:

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I highly doubt Walder had the bravery or wits to orchestrate the RW so that leaves Roose Bolton as the likely puppetmaster. Surely it should be Roose getting all the hate

Roose gets plenty of hate. Not sure how you've missed that.

[Adaneth]

He broke guest right. In Westeros that's a grave sin.

It's not nice to kill people at your daughter's wedding. Every RSVP to the next Frey wedding will be returned "unable to attend."

Oathbreaking as well. If the man you've pledged to support as king breaks his word to you, there is of course a right to be upset, but not to murder the guy. He's still your king, unless you're a weasel...see my next point.

He's also a weasel who makes people give him something for crossing a river, and not just money--which would be perfectly acceptable. A toll is fine, extorting marriages is a bit much.

He's a coward who arrives late to any battle so he can be sure to be on the winning side. At least back when he was in his fighting (or rather not fighting) days.

And he was a brat as a kid too, per The Mystery Knight.

Walder is just not remotely likable. Far too Machivellian, not caring enough about his family (dangling the inheritance above all of them like a carrot), and ultimately doomed, possibly to be killed by a member of his own family. The only guiding principle he has is ambition to increase his own status. There's nothing particularly noble about him. At least Tywin Lannister cared about his family's reputation--thus why he let Walder take the bulk of the blame for the Red Wedding.

Agreed. But please let's not offend Machiavelli here by associating his name with Frey. -_-

[jobmartell]

Actually hes a nice guy, misunderstood like Rhaegar. Troll thread is too strong to resist. I will bump it up to 4/10 on the TS, since we're pages in.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

He's a coward who arrives late to any battle so he can be sure to be on the winning side. At least back when he was in his fighting (or rather not fighting) days.

And he was a brat as a kid too, per The Mystery Knight.

Walder is just not remotely likable. Far too Machivellian, not caring enough about his family (dangling the inheritance above all of them like a carrot),

1 Arriving late at battles thereby saving the needless slaughter of your troops, who are probably also your smallfolk is a bad quality in your opinion? In a time where other Lords sacrifice their people on a whim

He was described as a brat after one encounter by Dunk, every kid has bratty moments, we shouldn`t tarnish them for it

Dangle carrots, promote competition = bring out the best in people

[marsyao]

You do NOT murder your king when he wrongs you. You petition for redress.

There is no way in hell anyone in their right mind could have anticipated Walder going that far. Robb screwed up, but not badly enough to merit death.

Marriage agreements are broken all the time. Massacre is not the usual way of dealing with it. When four of Aegon V's kids didn't want to go through with their weddings, did anyone kill them? No! Lord Baratheon made a challenge (very civilized in comparison to the RW) and got his butt kicked by Ser Duncan the Tall, and even after that Aegon still gave his only daughter to Lord Baratheon's son as a means of redressing the wrong. Duncan married his Jenny, and gave up his right to the throne. Jaehaerys and Shaera married each other. And Daeron's jilted fiancee went after Shaera's jilted fiance (Olenna Redwyne and Luthor Tyrell). And they all lived happily temporarily after.

Quite frankly, Walder should have made the deal so that Edmure marries Roslin AND Robb's eldest son is married to a Frey. That way he still gets a queen in the family and gets his descendants ruling Riverrun in addition to the entire North and Riverlands. Short-sighted, vengeful old geezer. He missed the opportunity of a lifetime.

You do not read previous posts, don't you? This topis has been discussed so many time that now it sound like a broken record to me, but anyway here is the gist: Walder Frey did not kill Robb just bececause a broken marriage promise, and although you can accuse him violate the sacre client's right, but his grudge agains Robb is very legit, and the reason is:

1) Robb claimed himself King of the North, but unless he won the war or at least force Lannisters to have a treaty, his title can not be see legit in the eyes Lords other than North houses

2) House Frey was never a bannerman of House Stark, he has no obligation to support Robb, so the foundation of their alliance was that both of them want something from the other party

3) Robb needs the bridges of House FRey, and Frey's troops, on the other hand, Walder Frey wanted to improve the status of his house. House Frey was rich and powerful in the riverland, but it has only a very shot history, Lords of the Westero still see them as upstarts and look down to them, so the dream of the Freys was that they could be recognized as peer of these great noble houses, and marriage is a good way to achieve this, but no great noble houses want to have a marriage agreement with Freys because of their low birth, Walder Frey had to promised me the girl's weight in silver as a dowry in order to persauding Roose Boldon to marry his grand daughter, it must be humilating, But now Walder Frey saw an opportunity to achieve this goal by marrying his daughter to a KIng, now his daughter would be a queen, and no other great houses would dare to laugh at him now!

Now let jus see what price Walder Frey pay for this marrige:

1) He allows Robb's Northern army pass his bridges, he joined Robb's side, despite knowing how powerful Lannister is and there was no guarantee that Robb would won the war, and the consequence of losing the war and face the wrath of Lannisters would be deadly, especially now his daughter would be Queen of the North, that makes him top enemy of the Lannisters

2) He provided several thousands of his best troops to Rob, he gave Robb money and supplies

3) We all know House Freys is a mess, there is lot of in fighing among them, but his heir Stevron Frey was a decent man, he was trained to be ruler from youn age, and he may be the only hope of House Frey after Walder Frey died, Stevron fought bravely for Robb, and was killed in the Robb's battle, Stevron's death was a huge blow to House Frey's future.

4) Besides Stevron's death, Freys must lost hundreds of their men, and lost large amount of money and other supplies,

Now Robb was gradually losing the war, the outlook of House Frey is dire, they are the house of Queen of rebellion King who was lossing the war, but despite all this setbacks, Walder Frey was stil faithful to his alliance with Robb, in order to making his daughter a Queen and thus greatly improve the status of his house, he almost would pay any price, but at that moment, he was informed Robb broke his promise and married some other girl. This kind of betray and humilation would be hard to bear for anybody, let alone Walder Frey, he has sacrificed so much and he was still the top enemy of the Lannister, and Robb still deny him the only thing he wants? No way, he did have a legit reason to have his vengeance

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Now Robb was gradually losing the war, the outlook of House Frey is dire, they are the house of Queen of rebellion King who was lossing the war, but despite all this setbacks, Walder Frey was stil faithful to his alliance with Robb, in order to making his daughter a Queen and thus greatly improve the status of his house, he almost would pay any price, but at that moment, he was informed Robb broke his promise and married some other girl. This kind of betray and humilation would be hard to bear for anybody, let alone Walder Frey, he has sacrificed so much and he was still the top enemy of the Lannister, and Robb still deny him the only thing he wants? No way, he did have a legit reason to have his vengeance

There is no question that Walder has a legitimate grievance, but that's a far cry from having the right to massacre Robb and many bannerman that didn't have much to do with Robb's indiscretions. And the "Guest Right" is a sacred tradition, the violation of which is incredibly serious.

I don't think that Walder was limited to a "petition for redress." On the contrary, he was within his rights to immediately terminate the alliance, deny passage on the Twins, and even declare war against Robb. But massacring people protected by the Guest Right is way too far.

[marsyao]

He broke guest right. In Westeros that's a grave sin.

It's not nice to kill people at your daughter's wedding. Every RSVP to the next Frey wedding will be returned "unable to attend."

To be fair to Walder Frey, this was the only chance he could kill Robb, otherwise his men wold not even remotely have a chance to be near to Robb.

[marsyao]

There is no question that Walder has a legitimate grievance, but that's a far cry from having the right to massacre Robb and many bannerman that didn't have much to do with Robb's indiscretions. And the "Guest Right" is a sacred tradition, the violation of which is incredibly serious.

I don't think that Walder was limited to a "petition for redress." On the contrary, he was within his rights to immediately terminate the alliance, deny passage on the Twins, and even declare war against Robb. But massacring people protected by the Guest Right is way too far.

As I said in my another post: To be fair to Walder Frey, this was the only chance he could kill Robb, otherwise his men wold not even remotely have a chance to be near to Robb. And since Robb was not alone, and Robb's men would not be standby and let Freys killing their king, so they had to be killed too, though many great Lords of North were actaully taken prisoner rather than be killed indiscriminately.\

"immediately terminate the alliance, deny passage on the Twins, and even declare war against Robb." was not enough for Walder Frey, not only he wanted vengeance, but also he was still the top enemy of the Iron thrones, he need to do more to be back into King's grace and receive better term from Lannisters

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

As I said in my another post: To be fair to Walder Frey, this was the only chance he could kill Robb, otherwise his men wold not even remotely have a chance to be near to Robb. And since Robb was not alone, and Robb's men would not be standby and let Freys killing their king, so they had to be killed too, though many great Lords of North were actaully taken prisoner rather than be killed indiscriminately.\

"immediately terminate the alliance, deny passage on the Twins, and even declare war against Robb." was not enough for Walder Frey, not only he wanted vengeance, but also he was still the top enemy of the Iron thrones, he need to do more to be back into King's grace and receive better term from Lannisters

Ok, but "I didn't have the ability to kill you through legitimate means, so I massacred you and a bunch of other people while violating a sacred right" is not a particularly compelling justification. If you can't kill an enemy through legitimate means, that doesn't open the door to any and all means conceivable.

I know why Frey did this, but that's a far cry from saying that it was sympathetic or justified.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Ok, but "I didn't have the ability to kill you through legitimate means, so I massacred you and a bunch of other people while violating a sacred right" is not a particularly compelling justification. If you can't kill an enemy through legitimate means, that doesn't open the door to any and all means conceivable.

I know why Frey did this, but that's a far cry from saying that it was sympathetic or justified.

Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner. The price was cheap by any measure.

[In A Coat of Gold]

Robb is an arrogant oathbreaker.

Robb bristled at that. “The Westerlings are better blood than the Freys. They’re an ancient line, descended from the First Men.

He got his treacherous comeuppance.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner. The price was cheap by any measure.

The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. In the short run, the Freys have peace, but the North still simmers, and the Freys will find it harder to make lasting alliances in the future. It's way too early to know whether the Bolton-controlled North is stable.

[Frey Pie]

Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner. The price was cheap by any measure.

Lol straight from the mouth of the most hypocritical man in Westeros...

[rocksniffer]

pardon me friends as i pause to lift a leg on this thread...

i know it is foolish, but sometimes i just can't help myself... :bang:

He broke guest right. In Westeros that's a grave sin.

It's not nice to kill people at your daughter's wedding. Every RSVP to the next Frey wedding will be returned "unable to attend."

Oathbreaking as well. If the man you've pledged to support as king breaks his word to you, there is of course a right to be upset, but not to murder the guy. He's still your king, unless you're a weasel...see my next point.

He's also a weasel who makes people give him something for crossing a river, and not just money--which would be perfectly acceptable. A toll is fine, extorting marriages is a bit much.

He's a coward who arrives late to any battle so he can be sure to be on the winning side. At least back when he was in his fighting (or rather not fighting) days.

And he was a brat as a kid too, per The Mystery Knight.

Walder is just not remotely likable. Far too Machivellian, not caring enough about his family (dangling the inheritance above all of them like a carrot), and ultimately doomed, possibly to be killed by a member of his own family. The only guiding principle he has is ambition to increase his own status. There's nothing particularly noble about him. At least Tywin Lannister cared about his family's reputation--thus why he let Walder take the bulk of the blame for the Red Wedding.

Lady B, my most logical and level-headed friend, i completely agree. Except that unlike the Mirror Mirror episode of old star trek there are too many freys to make ascension through assassination viable, except possibly for the first 3 or 4 in line, in my less than sober opinion. perhaps this is how he has lived to the ripe old age of 90+. in addition i don't think many of the rest of them have as much wits as old walder, probably another reason he has lived so long.

but more importantly, M'Lady, why are you feeding these trolls :lol:

As a man described as not long for this world, who feels his family has been held back by other families snobbery, why should he care about tradition and superstition unless he`s devoutly religious and fears damnation

i care less about the punishment of gods...and i can't imagine the character, walder frey, as he is written, would care either.

if i were frey i would care that once i had betrayed in this particular way, i would never again be able to gain the trust of any other house or faction. i wouldn't just be the "late" walder frey, but old walder the betrayer from a house of betrayers. he made a foolish mistake in order to, in his own mind, right many decades of wrongs he had received from the starks and the tullys...

and he doomed his own house in the process....

luckily for him he probably won't live long enough to reap the whirlwind of revenge coming from arya, mistress of the faceless... :ninja:

He didn't betray Walder Frey.Walder is the one who accepted Edmure.You can't say Robb broke his oath and then forget that Walder accepted Edmure instead of Robb.You can't just go okay ill get the lord paramount of the riverlands and all is forgiven and cross your fingers.Walder is the one who broke his oath twice.Once for not protecting his lord and demanding payment from Robb and then the RW

i agree frey broke faith but not about accepting edmure...that was always just a ploy to get everyone together in his castle to do the deed. he knew through his connection to tywin that edmure was no longer the lord paramount of the riverlands but a traitor to the crown.

frey was attempting, stupidly in my opinion, to further his own interests by aligning with the group he saw as the stronger. as he had done in years past...

I feel as if I have stumbled into Bizarro Westeros. Where is the Craster-is-father-of-the-year thread?

:lmao:

Agreed

You can talk about how Robb betrayed him and this is true. Stevron and other Freys died for him which is awful but which is also war. And it is clear that this is not Walder's motivation for betraying Robb. It's for his own pride. Walder was always looking for a way out and would have turned over any slight. Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if he would have pulled the same stunt had it been Robb and Roslins wedding

Robb was losing and as soon as that happened Walder was always going to switch sides

exactly this^

...of course as always these are just this old salt's opinions, feel free to disagree

:smoking:

[Frey Pie]

pardon me friends as i pause to lift a leg on this thread...

i know it is foolish, but sometimes i just can't help myself... :bang:

Lady B, my most logical and level-headed friend, i completely agree. Except that unlike the Mirror Mirror episode of old star trek there are too many freys to make ascension through assassination viable, except possibly for the first 3 or 4 in line, in my less than sober opinion. perhaps this is how he has lived to the ripe old age of 90+. in addition i don't think many of the rest of them have as much wits as old walder, probably another reason he has lived so long.

but more importantly, M'Lady, why are you feeding these trolls :lol:

i care less about the punishment of gods...and i can't imagine the character, walder frey, as he is written, would care either.

if i were frey i would care that once i had betrayed in this particular way, i would never again be able to gain the trust of any other house or faction. i wouldn't just be the "late" walder frey, but old walder the betrayer from a house of betrayers. he made a foolish mistake in order to, in his own mind, right many decades of wrongs he had received from the starks and the tullys...

and he doomed his own house in the process....

luckily for him he probably won't live long enough to reap the whirlwind of revenge coming from arya, mistress of the faceless... :ninja:

i agree frey broke faith but not about accepting edmure...that was always just a ploy to get everyone together in his castle to do the deed. he knew through his connection to tywin that edmure was no longer the lord paramount of the riverlands but a traitor to the crown.

frey was attempting, stupidly in my opinion, to further his own interests by aligning with the group he saw as the stronger. as he had done in years past...

:lmao:

exactly this^

...of course as always these are just this old salt's opinions, feel free to disagree

:smoking:

I feel free to agree personally

Wonder how old man Frey felt about an up jumped little lord of the fingers taking the lord paramount title of his land though? Surely having LF being made your liege is a bit of an insult? he's not even from the riverlands

[marsyao]

Robb was losing and as soon as that happened Walder was always going to switch sides

This is not necessary true, if Walder Frey's daughter actually marry to Robb, then House Frey would be house of the rebel queen, it would not be likely he could get a pardon from the Iron Thrones for that, and actually if Freys were still at Robb's side, wither their hekp, the Northemen certianly could retreat back to the North, and then the North-Frey alliance would still be powerful enough to have a negotiated peace with the Iron Throne.

[Frey Pie]

This is not necessary true, if Walder Frey's daughter actually marry to Robb, then House Frey would be house of the rebel queen, it would not be likely he could get a pardon from the Iron Thrones for that, and actually if Freys were still at Robb's side, wither their hekp, the Northemen certianly could retreat back to the North, and then the North-Frey alliance would still be powerful enough to have a negotiated peace with the Iron Throne.

George himself said that Frey would have been looking to disentangle himself from the alliance. The difference would have been that it wouldn't be so bloody...maybe

I think you overstate the power of the Freys. The biggest boon to Robb in this situation would be a united riverlands at his back, not just house frey

[marsyao]

I think you overstate the power of the Freys. The biggest boon to Robb in this situation would be a united riverlands at his back, not just house frey

Freys are one of the most powerful house in the riverland, and more important is that they occupied an stragic important location, it means a lot when Robb decided to retreat to North

[Trigger Warning]

He's a hero, he saved the realm from werewolves.