Orphalesion Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Okay this is something I have been wondering about ever since I read SoS and the way these things were then portrayed in the TV show just seemed to confirm my suspicions. Considering Lady Olenna's involvement with the Purple Wedding and the abrupt, quick manner Olenna and Margaery drop Sansa after the Grey Wedding in the book as well as the fact that it was Sansa's hairnet that was used to carry the poison... ...did the Tyrells ever really plan to marry Willas to Sansa, thus making her Lady Tyrell, or did they just want her close by so they'd have a scapegoat for Joffrey's murder (they likely didn't know that Tyrion could/would be blamed so easily instead.) Ser Dontos did call them "Lannisters with roses" and while he is not the most trustworthy source of information in those circumstances I do believe that is the truth (plus he possibly knew of their involvement with the plot to poison Joffrey) Basically I do believe the promise to have Sansa marry Willas was made by the Queen of Throns because it could lead to two possible outcomes: 1) They'd have someone whom they'd could easily blame for Joffrey's murder (the poison being in Sansa's hairnet, the way Joffrey had treated her and her family) and if she raves about being promised to Willas....who is going to believe a girl guilty of treason and regicide?2) If Sansa is not blamed, the Tyrells gain Winterfell...thus leaving them in a situation more secure than their (disputed) lordship of the reach and a renown and prestigious holding for Garlan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Bastard Snow Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 They really did want Sansa.Also what the hell is the Grey Wedding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diregirl Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I had the impression taking Sansa to Highgarden was a sensible plot. They would remove Sansa from King's Landing (just in case that Joffrey might still be attracted to her, which would only create an awkward situation for the new queen. At this point they didn't know too much about Joffrey, as far as I remember.). They would also put Sansa under their protection AKA she would be their hostage and not the Lannister's. This might be useful, depending on the progress of Robb Stark and his troops. I don't think they would necessarily have wanted to marry her to Willas, I'm sure they would see how things would develop - should the Lannisters lose and Robb Stark win, it might be useful to have Sansa married to one of the Tyrells; should the Lannister's win, such a match would be imprudent. But as a cover story it might have its uses - it would give them a pretext to invite her to Highgarden, but once there they might go for a "long engagement" instead of marrying a traitor's daughter to a family member. Sansa would be powerless to prevent this, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neilos Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I think they did, yeah. The abrupt nature with which they drop her after the plan falls apart is them adapting-- they cared more about their next move than making sure she felt better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 .Also what the hell is the Grey Wedding? A fan-nickname for Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. I had the impression taking Sansa to Highgarden was a sensible plot. They would remove Sansa from King's Landing (just in case that Joffrey might still be attracted to her, which would only create an awkward situation for the new queen. At this point they didn't know too much about Joffrey, as far as I remember.). They would also put Sansa under their protection AKA she would be their hostage and not the Lannister's. This might be useful, depending on the progress of Robb Stark and his troops. I don't think they would necessarily have wanted to marry her to Willas, I'm sure they would see how things would develop - should the Lannisters lose and Robb Stark win, it might be useful to have Sansa married to one of the Tyrells; should the Lannister's win, such a match would be imprudent. But as a cover story it might have its uses - it would give them a pretext to invite her to Highgarden, but once there they might go for a "long engagement" instead of marrying a traitor's daughter to a family member. Sansa would be powerless to prevent this, anyway. That makes much more sense than just marrying the daughter of a man guilty of treason to your heir. Thanks for the insight! At the very least we can all agree that what they promised Sansa was a bit too good to be the full truth. To me it was (somehow) always so clear that Robb was going to lose that I did not even consider Sansa could have valu to the Tyrells in case he was victorious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Buckethead Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I certainly think the Tyrells had plenty of reasons to have Willas Marry Sansa. As previously stated, it would transfer a powerful "hostage" from Cerseis custody into their own. It could mean a powerful foothold for the Tyrells in the north (Just like Tyrion and Sansas marriage was an attempt from the Lannisters to do the same) It would be a good match for Willas, who might otherwise find his choice of brides to be of lesser birth than his own. But they were never honest with her about their true intentions. Funnily enough, I think that if they had been more honest with her, then maybe, just maybe, Sansa would probably still have gone through with it, and would have been more secretive about their plans, so that they would not have been thwarted by Littlefinger and the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Brandon Badwater Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I believe they did and that LF betrayed Olenna by stealing her away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 I believe they did and that LF betrayed Olenna by stealing her away Interesting, I always thought it was the other way around, that Olenna had agreed with Little Finger to use Sansa as a scape goat (not knowing Little Finger's plans for her) and that the idea to get Sansa to High Garden instead was a project she kept private from LF after deciding that securing a claim on Winterfell (or being married to Robb's sister in case he won) would be worth the effort, as well as learning how easy it would be to blame Tyrion instead of Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Yes they did, but Olenna doesn't give a shit about WF, that's LF talk to present himself as the only one who cares for Sansa when everyone else cares for her claim, when in the next breath he details how they'll use her claim to soldier onto bigger and better things. It'd be a nice tale to spin Mace who ultimately decides who the Tyrells do and do not marry, but Olenna cares nothing for empire building, she is an isolationist as detailed by herself when she is first introduced. Sansa is merely a good match for Willas. The marriage plot is a secret by necessity, but Sansa let it out resulting in her being married off to Tyrion. From Olenna's POV Sansa either betrayed the secret purposefully or is so stupid she unknowingly let it out, either way she's of no use to her anymore and so she dropped her like a brick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArabellaVidal Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Yes they did, but Olenna doesn't give a shit about WF, that's LF talk to present himself as the only one who cares for Sansa when everyone else cares for her claim, when in the next breath he details how they'll use her claim to soldier onto bigger and better things. It'd be a nice tale to spin Mace who ultimately decides who the Tyrells do and do not marry, but Olenna cares nothing for empire building, she is an isolationist as detailed by herself when she is first introduced. Sansa is merely a good match for Willas. The marriage plot is a secret by necessity, but Sansa let it out resulting in her being married off to Tyrion. From Olenna's POV Sansa either betrayed the secret purposefully or is so stupid she unknowingly let it out, either way she's of no use to her anymore and so she dropped her like a brick. Sansa is a brilliant match for any family in a feudal society. It does have something to do with Winterfell, even Riverrun. Olenna cannot be a complete isolationist, not in a society like that. Even if she isn't ambitious for control, she cannot be oblivious to the issue of bloodlines and having ties to arguably the most ancient bloodline in Westeros. Also having links by marriage to other houses seems to be a pretty standard school of thought for a feudal society like that. Obviously, she is a far cry from Rickard Stark but she sees it as an advantageous match because it is one and she is shrewd enough to know that it will be seen as a political move and this breaks any illusions of her as an isolationist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 It's not an illusion, it's straight out of her mouth. She wanted the Tyrells to have nothing to do with Renly and then nothing to do with the Lannisters, she wanted them completely out of everything. To then be harbouring dreams of a Tyrell host marching North to claim Winterfell is completely inconsistent, a nonsensical fabrication which makes complete sense considering the source and his motivation in that conversation. Sansa's isolation is probably part of the attraction for Olenna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 It's not an illusion, it's straight out of her mouth. She wanted the Tyrells to have nothing to do with Renly and then nothing to do with the Lannisters, she wanted them completely out of everything. To then be harbouring dreams of a Tyrell host marching North to claim Winterfell is completely inconsistent, a nonsensical fabrication which makes complete sense considering the source and his motivation in that conversation. Sansa's isolation is probably part of the attraction for Olenna. She wanted her family to have nothing to do with that dangerous civil war that eradicates complete bloodlines and has houses falling left and right for being on the wrong side. However that does not mean that she does not want her family to gain power if the opportunity presents itself with hardly any risk attached. Remember that it is said that one reason the Tyrells seek ties to a king, any king. Is because their claim to the Lordship of the reach is not as good, or not better, than that of many other old Reach families. But if they have relations to the Crown, and a cadet branch under Garlan at Winterfell, then their situation instantly looks much better, doesn't it? And as diregirl pointed out, having Sansa as (at least) a permanent guest at High Garden, secures the survival of House Tyrell in two of the possible outcomes of the War of Five Kings; if Robb get's defeated, they marry Sansa to Willas and get a claim on Winterfell. If Robb wins, they have his sister to negotiate their position with him and, if the wedding goes through, are related to the Crown of the new, Northern Kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Painting Olenna as having a care for kingship or ties to the throne is to go completely outside of what GRRM establishes of her the first time we meet her. There is no minimal risk option to taking WF, no-one is going to hand over WF to Willas' and Sansa's second child somewhere down the line. Olenna thinking of Sansa in terms of a safety net against Robb is not remotely hinted towards anywhere in the text. Olenna does not think in terms of politics, she cares nothing for and makes mock of ambition, glory and titles. She thinks in terms of family, of which she planned to make Sansa a part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrell_like_Squirrel Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Uhh I think they make it pretty clear in the books, they want her claim to Winterfell. The Tyrell's were hedging their bets. If Robb defeats the Lannisters, then they have a marriage tie to house Stark and a stronger leg to stand on for diplomacy. If Robb dies, they can make a claim for Winterfell and the north. Pretty straightforward to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 Olenna does not think in terms of politics, she cares nothing for and makes mock of ambition, glory and titles. She thinks in terms of family, of which she planned to make Sansa a part. Yes she care about family first and foremost, but she is not without political know-how and knows that the only way to ensure the long and healthy life of her family members is to secure the continued status and prosperity of their house. I can agree that she does not care about advancing their power, but to preserve it. And remember the Red Queen hypothesis "You have to do all the running you can just to stay were you are" that's true for Westerosi politics as well and the QoT is too smart to think that the Tyrells will be safe and sound if they just sit in their rose gardens while around them the whole of Westeros plots and gains power. She did not take interest in Sansa as a potential family member but as a tool to keep her already existing family safe. At least that's the way I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 .Also what the hell is the Grey Wedding? A fan-nickname for Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. I have never seen that definition before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Let's remember than Joffrey's death was supposed to look like an accident. Hell, it did look like an accident. That what I thought on my first read. Only Littlefinger did everything to make it look like not an accident, by drawing everyone's attention to bad blood between Joffrey and Tyrion. So the Tyrell original plan for the Purple Wedding didn't really include screwing Sansa (or Tyrion) over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 I have never seen that definition before. Maybe it's not as widespread as I thought, my friends and me use it when discussing the different weddings; the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding, the Grey Wedding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllOfTheHours Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I had the impression taking Sansa to Highgarden was a sensible plot. They would remove Sansa from King's Landing (just in case that Joffrey might still be attracted to her, which would only create an awkward situation for the new queen. At this point they didn't know too much about Joffrey, as far as I remember.). They would also put Sansa under their protection AKA she would be their hostage and not the Lannister's. This might be useful, depending on the progress of Robb Stark and his troops. I don't think they would necessarily have wanted to marry her to Willas, I'm sure they would see how things would develop - should the Lannisters lose and Robb Stark win, it might be useful to have Sansa married to one of the Tyrells; should the Lannister's win, such a match would be imprudent. But as a cover story it might have its uses - it would give them a pretext to invite her to Highgarden, but once there they might go for a "long engagement" instead of marrying a traitor's daughter to a family member. Sansa would be powerless to prevent this, anyway. I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only thing I would add, is that the Lannister's married their heir (however Tywin was loathe to call him that) to Sansa even though she was a traitor's daughter. I think if the Lannister's would do that to secure their power and their hold on her, the Tyrells would do that same. I do think Sansa's role as a "traitor's daughter" is interesting. At first she was a hostage for her father's good behavior, and then her brother's. But they didn't automatically drop her as Joffrey's bride, which always surprised me. Then they learn she's plotting with the Tyrell's to escape and instead of locking her in the dungeon, they marry her to their heir. She seems to still have privileges and status of a highborn lady, even though her family is in open rebellion. :dunno: As for the Tyrell's interest in her, I agree that it is more business than personal so to speak. The Tyrell's learned after Renly's defeat how dangerous it can be to put your eggs all in one basket (or rather one king). They were able to get on Joffrey's good side after throwing down Stannis, but he survived to fight on, and the North, Riverlands, and Iron Islands are in open rebellion. So having Sansa - heiress to the North (apparently) after Bran and Rickon's "deaths" and niece to the LP of the Riverlands - is still a worthy match. Although the logic behind her worth - why didn't the Lannister's simply strip her of all rights/power when they did that to Ned - is still a bit of a puzzle IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diregirl Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 As for the Tyrell's interest in her, I agree that it is more business than personal so to speak. I just reread the chapter when Sansa is invited to meet the Tyrell women, and it's actually striking how fast-paced the action progresses - I mean, they sort of pretend to be interested in her (and draw her into this large, warm, fuzzy circle of women) - poor Sansa, how beautiful you look, have a lemon cake - and within minutes Oleanna draws the story of Joffrey's insufferable behaviour out of her.Five minutes later she's sort of engaged to Willas. It's the first time she meets them, for God's sake, it's not as if they had been friends or even acquainted before! They're just treating her like a pawn, just as everybody else does at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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