Did the Tyrells ever really plan for Sansa to marry Willas?

[A Bastard Snow]

Steven Attewell in his "Race for the Iron Throne" blog (where he's doing a chapter-by-chapter analysis of ASoIaF) had an interesting view of the chapter where Cersei is in the Small Council arguing against breaking the engagement to Sansa and marrying Joffrey to Maergery Tyrell instead. He wrote that if you read that chapter while knowing about Maggy The Frog's prophecy (which hasn't been revealed at that point), then Cersei's behavior makes sense. She had already decided that Sansa was the "Younger, More Beautiful" and Cersei thought that she had beaten Sansa down enough that she had forestalled the prophecy coming true.

Link: Cersei's Reaction and the Prophecy

Not to mention Sansa was powerless unlike Maergery who has the entire Reach at her back.

[chrisdaw]

The need to project on Olenna when the text portrays her so emphatically is really curious.

[Castellan]

I think its quite a straightforward desire and certainly the next chess move after making Tywin break the Sansa-Joffrey engagement so a Tyrell can be queen, they then snap up the desirable heiress to get power over the North.

It shows that they didn't estimate Tywin as having enough power to get back at them if they did it, which they were correct about. He was lucky to be able to forestall it.

[John Suburbs]

At the time the Willas plot was revealed, Sansa is a highly desirable match because she and Robb are the only known surviving children of Eddard Stark. However, she is firmly under Tywin's control at this point. To Lady O, Tywin having control of the north to supplement his recent gains in the Riverlands and the Neck, is just about the worst thing imaginable. It gives Casterly Rock the potential to mount an army at least of equal size to Highgarden if not greater, upending the balance of power in the region that has favored Highgarden for at least 300 years.

So ideally, Lady O would want to have Sansa for herself, but when that plan was scotched -- by Littlefinger, BTW, so much for the idea that he and Lady O were in cahoots on the assassination way back at Bitterbridge -- Tywin was then prompted to marry Sansa to Tyrion. Add that to Robb's death at the RW, and Lady O is now facing the prospect of Tywin not merely controlling the north by an alliance with the Boltons but through by a blood tie to the ruling seat in the north.

That is one of the reasons why it is clear that Tyrion was the real target at the PW and that the poison was the pie, not the wine. With Tyrion dead and Sansa with LF, Sansa is removed from Lannister control both legally and physically, and from Lady O's perspective it is better that Littlefinger should have her than Tywin, since she herself has no hope of getting her out of the city without a little bird seeing.

The other two reasons why Tyrion is the more logical target, indeed the only possible target, are even stronger as they deal with the physical impossibility of the two poisoning timelines and the logistical impossibility of even Littlefinger knowing all the twists and turns the chalice took at the wedding to wind up exactly where it needed to be at exactly the right time for the poisoning, but there are other threads on that so I'll leave it there.

[Arrow of the Morning]

The Tyrells wanted to marry Sansa with Willas. She is a good match and Willas have few options to marry because his cripple leg.

[TimJames]

I think so.

Here's why: Willias is the eldest son and therefore the heir. Surely there would be an array of lords wanting him to marry their daughter, probably badgering Mace about it as soon as Willias was born. And yet Willias is still unmarried.

I think it is for the same reason Tyrion is unmarried despite being the heir to Casterly Rock: nobody wants to marry their daughter to a disabled boy. Eddard reflected that Bran would never have children, and I think it is for the same reason.

Thus, Olenna probably saw Sansa as the best possible wife Willias can hope for. That's why she invited Sansa and Tyrion to go to Highgarden even after they are married: she intended to bump Tyrion off and marry the widowed Sansa to her grandson.

[Harry the Hair]

If Robb lost, Sansa would have more value for the Tyrells since she's his only heir and the key to the North. Since the Tyrells would be the victor's allies they could demand the wardship of the North from the Crown as a reward and thanks to their marriage with Sansa, there would be a good chance that the North would accept their rule.

It was a decent offer. Honestly the only thing I found odd about this situation was the secrecy. Why not ask Tywin for Sansa's hand in front a vast array of witnesses like they did for Margaery? I believe Tywin would've had no choice but to grant them their request. If anything, that's the biggest clue as to the theory that the proposal was a load of BS and that Sansa was never meant to wed Willas. So if the Willas-Sansa match was never meant to happen what was the point of the secret proposal in the first place? The answer is exactly what happened: Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was the desired outcome. I think she was used by LF and the Tyrells to drive a wedge between Tyrion and the rest of the Lannister clan (particularly Joff, Cersei and Tywin) so that they could use him as a scapegoat for Joff's murder later on.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

If anything, that's the biggest clue as to the theory that the proposal was a load of BS and that Sansa was never meant to wed Willas.

Or, another possibility is that the Tyrells were trying to double-cross Littlefinger and grab Sansa for themselves before he could get his greedy paws on her. So they wouldn't want to alert him ahead of time, in case he would do what he actually did once he got the news: put Sansa out of their reach.

I think the Tyrells knew that LF had plans for Sansa; he would have tipped them off with his idea of Sansa wearing the hairnet (which he would have had to disclose to them so Lady Olenna would know where to grab the poison). I'm not saying that the Tyrells knew exactly what LF's plans were, just that if he was involving her at all - even unconsciously - they could easily become suspicious that he had something else up his sleeve with regard to her.

[Harry the Hair]

Or, another possibility is that the Tyrells were trying to double-cross Littlefinger and grab Sansa for themselves before he could get his greedy paws on her. So they wouldn't want to alert him ahead of time, in case he would do what he actually did once he got the news: put Sansa out of their reach.

I think the Tyrells knew that LF had plans for Sansa; he would have tipped them off with his idea of Sansa wearing the hairnet (which he would have had to disclose to them so Lady Olenna would know where to grab the poison). I'm not saying that the Tyrells knew exactly what LF's plans were, just that if he was involving her at all - even unconsciously - they could easily become suspicious that he had something else up his sleeve with regard to her.

Don't forget that LF actually dared to ask Cersei for Sansa's hand and got refused on the count of his low birth status. I'm sure the Tyrells got a wiff of that bit of news.

We know that LF is the one to broker the Margaery-Joffrey match, that he hired a bunch of singers to spread rumors about Joff's sadistic behavior, that he is the one to tell Tywin about the Sansa-Willas plot and we know that the Tyrells and LF worked together to kill off Joff (LF supplied the poison through Dontos and Olenna was the one to drop it off in Joff's wine).

So the million dollar question would be when did the two of them started to work together? Was it when LF met up with them to discuss Margaery's betrothal or was it after he foiled their plans to wed Sansa to Willas? IMO, it makes more sense for them to team up during Margaery's betrothal talks, and his reward for loyal service could be Sansa. Since he can't get that while the Lannisters are in power he provokes Tywin in to doing the next best thing; marrying Tyrion to Sansa. LF is an excellent judge of character so I believe the goal here was to secure Sansa's maidenhood (since Tyrion has a fondness for sad, broken people and would respect Sansa's wishes) and to cause chaos within the Lannister clan. He then proceeds to keep his end of the bargain and kills off Joff to make room for the next best thing; a pliable and gentle Tommen for Marge to wed. Meanwhile he frames Tyrion for the murder and runs off with Sansa. Everyone gets what they want.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

{snip}

Yeah, good stuff. I would add that another reason for Littlefinger to foil the Sansa/Willas marriage plans, yet acquiesce to a Sansa/Tyrion marriage is that the latter would keep Sansa in King's Landing, both so he could snatch her away and also to implicate her in Joffrey's murder, albeit unwittingly. That way, he has a weapon to hold over her head - as we see him using quite quickly ("Do you want even more blood on your hands, Sansa?").

For the million dollar question, I always assumed plans were begun while he was meeting with the Tyrells to discuss the betrothal. Or, at least, Littlefinger and the Tyrells came to an understanding, pending further planning and confirmation of Joffrey's character for themselves. I don't think the plans were finalized until after Lady O's conversation with Sansa, but that the Tyrells definitely came to King's Landing with the possibility of eliminating Joffrey already in their heads.

[Colonel Green]

Honestly the only thing I found odd about this situation was the secrecy. Why not ask Tywin for Sansa's hand in front a vast array of witnesses like they did for Margaery?

Because they were waiting for the Purple Wedding, to see whether Sansa ended up having to take the fall for the assassination or not. If not, then they ask for her hand and it's wedding bells. If she does, then the Tyrells don't have the awkwardness of their heir being engaged to a regicide.

[Harry the Hair]

Because they were waiting for the Purple Wedding, to see whether Sansa ended up having to take the fall for the assassination or not. If not, then they ask for her hand and it's wedding bells. If she does, then the Tyrells don't have the awkwardness of their heir being engaged to a regicide.

Then what was the point of telling Sansa about the match before the Purple Wedding?

They could've very well framed Tyrion for Joff's murder without prompting Tywin to marry Sansa to Tyrion with their secret Sansa-Willas plot. A single Sansa would've still worn the hairnet and the QoT would've still been the one to poison the wine. Tyrion takes the fall, and if Sansa is deemed innocent then ask for her hand in public.

[Colonel Green]

Then what was the point of telling Sansa about the match before the Purple Wedding?

They could've very well framed Tyrion for Joff's murder without prompting Tywin to marry Sansa to Tyrion with their secret Sansa-Willas plot. A single Sansa would've still worn the hairnet and the QoT would've still been the one to poison the wine. Tyrion takes the fall, and if Sansa is deemed innocent then ask for her hand in public.

They weren't planning to frame Tyrion. Littlefinger was. The Tyrells were planning to frame Sansa if their Plan A (that Joffrey was thought to have choked) didn't work.

You're right that, strictly speaking, there's no reason to tell Sansa, if their goal is to leak this to the Lannisters, they also don't need to tell Sansa anything (indeed, it's potentially counterproductive, if it leads to Sansa distrusting Dontos).

[Jak Scaletongue]

The need to project on Olenna when the text portrays her so emphatically is really curious.

Mostly because you can't believe what people say about themselves. It's true in real life, and it's true in fiction. People want to make themselves look better, or in Olenna's case, possibly hide their true motives. Yes, we know what she *told* everyone, but that doesn't mean she wasn't leaving out some less desirable truths.

[PureGold]

I think the answer to whether the Tyrells intended for Sansa to marry Willas is, Yes and No.

She was a beaten down, malleable, girl. Highborn with impeccable bloodlines, the best possible match for the Heir to Highgarden who would have given them a foothold in the North, while techically establishing a link to The Vale and The Riverlands. However that was not the priority, the priority was influence and control over the Iron Throne.

Joffrey had to go and they needed insurance in place. IF the "Choke" theory didn't wash they needed someone to take the fall. When House Lannister found out about the intrigue with Olenna/Margaery/Sansa/Willas, they put a stop to it and that's when Sansa's potential framing became her only use, it's why they didn't bother to associate with her anymore.

She really is the perfect fall guy, Daughter of a Traitor and a member of a fallen House, so there would be nobody around to avenge her or investigate on her behalf. Sansa is executed and theoretically, everyone would move on with Tommen on the throne afterward.