Did the Tyrells ever really plan for Sansa to marry Willas?

[Orphalesion]

I just reread the chapter when Sansa is invited to meet the Tyrell women, and it's actually striking how fast-paced the action progresses - I mean, they sort of pretend to be interested in her (and draw her into this large, warm, fuzzy circle of women) - poor Sansa, how beautiful you look, have a lemon cake - and within minutes Oleanna draws the story of Joffrey's insufferable behaviour out of her.Five minutes later she's sort of engaged to Willas. It's the first time she meets them, for God's sake, it's not as if they had been friends or even acquainted before! They're just treating her like a pawn, just as everybody else does at that point.

Exactly, the swiftness with which it all happens makes me think that they 1) didn't care about her as a person 2) already met her both knowing about Joffrey and with the intention of offering that betrothal.

[aryagonnakill#2]

As per GRRM the Tyrells did not intend for either Sansa or Tyrion to be scapegoats, they intended it to look like he choked and simply did not count on Cersei's paranoia and prejudice. They definitely wanted to marry Sansa to Willas so they could lay claim to Winterfell, and simply hold the leverage, if it were not for LF telling Cersei of their plot they would have succeeded.

[Diregirl]

As per GRRM the Tyrells did not intend for either Sansa or Tyrion to be scapegoats, they intended it to look like he choked and simply did not count on Cersei's paranoia and prejudice.

BTW, why did they give the poisonous hairnet to Sansa? Wasn't that a risk, I mean she might have put something else on her head or fiddling with it might be complicated or might draw attention to them?

[aryagonnakill#2]

^Wanting someone to take blame and laying a potential in the event of a failure are 2 different things. The ideal ending for the Tyrells was everyone thinking he choked, they had no problems with Tyrion or Sansa, but if something happened it would be Sansa getting the blame.

If poison had been discovered, everyone would be a suspect, unless 1 of those suspects was found to have had more of the poison on her at the time.

[Wouter]

I do think Sansa's role as a "traitor's daughter" is interesting. At first she was a hostage for her father's good behavior, and then her brother's. But they didn't automatically drop her as Joffrey's bride, which always surprised me. Then they learn she's plotting with the Tyrell's to escape and instead of locking her in the dungeon, they marry her to their heir. She seems to still have privileges and status of a highborn lady, even though her family is in open rebellion. :dunno:

Highborn hostages are usually well treated, this was the case with the Redwyne twins as well (who also did attempt to escape). Moreover, an "escape" by marrying into the Tyrells is not comparable with a plan that includes a physical escape from the Red Keep (eluding or incapacitating guards), as Sandor proposed and as she eventually did with Dontos.

As for the traitor's daughter thing, Cersei had a pretext to officually treat her as a ward of the crown (and not an outright captive of a disgraced and rebel family) because she had told Cersei about the plan to leave KL, showing that she was innocent of plotting against the king. And in practice, though Sansa was treated as a punching bag, letting her keep her status as heir of Winterfell was a good move because they could conceivably strip Robb (and his heirs, except Sansa and Arya) of his lands and titles after defeating him. They would then have control over the lady of Winterfell. They could give Sansa, with titles, lands and castles, to some ally of theirs if needed or keep her for some Lannister (and they ended up doing just that, as Tywin used her to get Tyrion's sights off Casterly Rock).

That the betrothal to Joffrey wasn't broken right away was surprising. I can see two possible reasons:

-Cersei wanted a potential daughter-in-law she could control/dominate, and since Sansa was a friendless captive in practice, yet sufficiently highborn to be a prospect for the king, she was a fine candidate. Cersei may or may not have planned to shove her aside at the appropriate moment, as she ended up doing. Cersei claims this was always the plan with Sansa, marrying her to some Lannister cousin instead. Given the Maggy-the-Frog prophecy though, I wouldn't be surprised if she really considered letting the marriage take place to avoid figures like Margaery coming into Joffrey's and Cersei's life. A totally powerless daughter-in-law would have been just fine. Cersei argued against the marriage with Margaery at first, noting that Joffrey was already betrothed and that they better make sure that the new girl would be to his liking.

-Joffrey did not want to break the bethrotal; she was his toy and he wanted to keep it, for as long as possible. IIRC there were indications that he had to be talked into the Margaery wedding.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

That the betrothal to Joffrey wasn't broken right away was surprising. I can see two possible reasons:

-Cersei wanted a potential daughter-in-law she could control/dominate, and since Sansa was a friendless captive in practice, yet sufficiently highborn to be a prospect for the king, she was a fine candidate.

Steven Attewell in his "Race for the Iron Throne" blog (where he's doing a chapter-by-chapter analysis of ASoIaF) had an interesting view of the chapter where Cersei is in the Small Council arguing against breaking the engagement to Sansa and marrying Joffrey to Maergery Tyrell instead. He wrote that if you read that chapter while knowing about Maggy The Frog's prophecy (which hasn't been revealed at that point), then Cersei's behavior makes sense. She had already decided that Sansa was the "Younger, More Beautiful" and Cersei thought that she had beaten Sansa down enough that she had forestalled the prophecy coming true.

Link: Cersei's Reaction and the Prophecy

[Beautiful Balon]

They totally did plan for Sansa to marry Willas she's one of the most prestigoius match that they can hope for him. In addition whatever happens during the war of five kings this move put them on top

1. Lannisters win and kill Robb, they get winterfell

2. Lannister's win and Robb bends the knee. they have an ally that they know is willing to move against the crown

3. Robb wins, they get another marriage into a royal family and a powerful ally.

whatever happens the Tyrell's win.

[Wouter]

Steven Attewell in his "Race for the Iron Throne" blog (where he's doing a chapter-by-chapter analysis of ASoIaF) had an interesting view of the chapter where Cersei is in the Small Council arguing against breaking the engagement to Sansa and marrying Joffrey to Maergery Tyrell instead. He wrote that if you read that chapter while knowing about Maggy The Frog's prophecy (which hasn't been revealed at that point), then Cersei's behavior makes sense. She had already decided that Sansa was the "Younger, More Beautiful" and Cersei thought that she had beaten Sansa down enough that she had forestalled the prophecy coming true.

Link: Cersei's Reaction and the Prophecy

I do think Cersei saw Sansa as a candidate for that; and if she was replaced by someone else that new person would become another candidate and probably in a far better position than Sansa to actually make true on the prophecy. Hence, I suspect Cersei would have let Joffrey marry Sansa if she thought Tywin would allow it.

Regarding the Tyrells, I do think that Margaery regretted that her family cut ties to Sansa overnight. While her cousins ignored Sansa after that, at least Marge showed that she was sad about the way things went. Possibly it was a decision of Olenna that the girls should put distance between themselves and Sansa; maybe to signal to Tywin that the Tyrells would accept they lost this round.

[The Fresh PtwP]

Yes they did, but Olenna doesn't give a shit about WF, that's LF talk to present himself as the only one who cares for Sansa when everyone else cares for her claim, when in the next breath he details how they'll use her claim to soldier onto bigger and better things. It'd be a nice tale to spin Mace who ultimately decides who the Tyrells do and do not marry, but Olenna cares nothing for empire building, she is an isolationist as detailed by herself when she is first introduced. Sansa is merely a good match for Willas. The marriage plot is a secret by necessity, but Sansa let it out resulting in her being married off to Tyrion. From Olenna's POV Sansa either betrayed the secret purposefully or is so stupid she unknowingly let it out, either way she's of no use to her anymore and so she dropped her like a brick.

This on so many levels, especially the end, the Tyrells get alot of flak on the forums for "ditching" Sansa...but the fact is she can't keep a secret

[Colonel Green]

Around when season 4 of the show came out, GRRM provided some commentary on the book that resolved a number of the remaining questions I had about the whole course of events. Namely, he said that the Tyrell plan was that Joffrey's poisoning should be perceived as accidental, ideally, but if that didn't work, then Sansa would take the fall for it, since she was wearing the hairnet.

This explains a lot of things, including what the purpose of the hairnet was (particularly from the Tyrell POV) and why the Tyrells wanted to wait until after the Joffrey/Margaery wedding to ask for Sansa's hand: they did want Sansa to marry Willas, but in case Plan B needed to be implemented, it was best to wait until after the wedding, as if she did need to take the fall it wouldn't do to have her be formally engaged to Willas at the time.

This on so many levels, especially the end, the Tyrells get alot of flak on the forums for "ditching" Sansa...but the fact is she can't keep a secret

The Tyrells have no way of knowing the leak wasn't on their end, or from one of Varys' "little birds", or whatever.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

I believe so. If Robb loses then Sansa and Willas' second son could lay claim to the North, if Robb wins then no harm done, the Tyrells have protected and treated Sansa well and house Stark and House Tyrell might ally in the next war. Also the wedding wouldn't have to be immediate once they got Sansa out of KL and the could wait and see how Robb recovers from his recent issues.

[Orphalesion]

The Lanisters treated Sansa reasonably well because she was collateral for Jaime's safety, which is also one reason they didn't want her to escape to High Garden.

I see, so I misinterpreted what the Tyrell's plan A and B was in relation to Sansa. I don't particularly like it when authors explain their stoires out of universe, I think GRRM should have found a way to put the explanation into the novels. Surely somewhere in FFCDWD it could have been cleared up.

I admit my theory was partly born out of disappointment that Sansa (and by extension we, the readers) didn't get to go to High Garden. Little Lady should have really just held her tongue...

[The Fresh PtwP]

Around when season 4 of the show came out, GRRM provided some commentary on the book that resolved a number of the remaining questions I had about the whole course of events. Namely, he said that the Tyrell plan was that Joffrey's poisoning should be perceived as accidental, ideally, but if that didn't work, then Sansa would take the fall for it, since she was wearing the hairnet.

This explains a lot of things, including what the purpose of the hairnet was (particularly from the Tyrell POV) and why the Tyrells wanted to wait until after the Joffrey/Margaery wedding to ask for Sansa's hand: they did want Sansa to marry Willas, but in case Plan B needed to be implemented, it was best to wait until after the wedding, as if she did need to take the fall it wouldn't do to have her be formally engaged to Willas at the time.

The Tyrells have no way of knowing the leak wasn't on their end, or from one of Varys' "little birds", or whatever.

Except that they are knowledgeable about Varys and take the precautions (Butterbumps) also only Marg and Olenna knew so the "their end" angle is doubtful

[falcotron]

Agreed. Just as you conclude in the end, the Tyrells really did plan for Sansa to marry Willas. If they'd needed to use her as a scapegoat (which they didn't intend to, but could have become necessary), they may well have done so; otherwise, the marriage would have happened.

But what's surprising about that? That's pretty much the same conclusion you'd get from a casual reading, or from the TV show (only with Loras in place of Willas).

[Colonel Green]

Except that they are knowledgeable about Varys and take the precautions (Butterbumps) also only Marg and Olenna knew so the "their end" angle is doubtful

They take precautions, but they have no way of knowing whether those precautions worked, or whether anybody else in the retinue ever talked about it and were overheard, etc. And it wasn't just Marg and Olenna; the offer was made in the presence of the entire court of Tyrell ladies (which included people like Taena Merryweather).

[Slowpoke Martin]

Olenna is full of shit, she is basically the female Varys. She hides her true motives and only tells people what they want to hear.

[Diregirl]

Olenna is full of shit, she is basically the female Varys. She hides her true motives and only tells people what they want to hear.

Oleanna does Realpolitik like a pro. She tells everybody it's all about family, but she knows exactly that a family without the right connections is really in a dangerous place. Very shrewd lady, even if she tries to ply Sansa with lemoncakes.

[Ruby Fforde]

Maybe it's not as widespread as I thought, my friends and me use it when discussing the different weddings; the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding, the Grey Wedding.

Ooh, do you have a 'colourful' nickname for the wedding between Tommen and Margaery?

[Lord Varys]

I don't buy for a second that Olenna isn't completely on board with and directly responsible for Mace's royal ambitions. Especially in light of the fact that we know that both Luthor Tyrell and Olenna Redwyne were betrothed to members of the royal family before they were dumped and married each other. It makes no sense to assume that did not see each other as living memory of what could have been, and subsequently also no reason to try to accomplish for their children and grandchildren what they couldn't accomplish themselves (i.e. marrying into the royal family).

In that sense it is quite clear that Olenna wanted to secure Sansa's claim to Winterfell through the marriage to Willas - if this could be done. It wasn't a top priority - that was to safely murder Joff - but it wasn't irrelevant, either.

The fact that George confirmed that plan A was supposed to be an accident and plan B to set up Sansa/Tyrion as a scapegoat plan B strongly suggests that Lady Alerie was involved in the plot as well - she is the one who comes up with the 'He choked, we all saw it' explanation trying to steer the interpretation of the event towards 'accident'. I guess Cersei should also considering reevaluating her view of Alerie Hightower Tyrell...

[The Fresh PtwP]

They take precautions, but they have no way of knowing whether those precautions worked, or whether anybody else in the retinue ever talked about it and were overheard, etc. And it wasn't just Marg and Olenna; the offer was made in the presence of the entire court of Tyrell ladies (which included people like Taena Merryweather).

Butterbumps was singing (loudly) to the rest of the hens, who were on benches IIRC, while Olenna, Marg and Sansa have their private talk at the dais. I get what your saying but imo,

A.) Varys can't be everywhere, I like Olenna's quote about spiders and roses

B.) If someone as prudent as Olenna, who KNOWS someone may be eavesdropping says it's safe to talk...it's probably alright to talk.