The Lion’s Shadow: Why Kevan Lannister Doesn’t Deserve His Good Rep

[Chaircat Meow]

Go to the site, almost every article is over-analyzed. The Alysanne article is a good example.

So BFish over-analyses his own articles?

The books actually really repay careful analysis, GrrM crams a lot of detail and subtext in.

[Red Tiger]

So BFish over-analyses his own articles?

The books actually really repay careful analysis, GrrM crams a lot of detail and subtext in.

That's not what I meant, I mean the articles that he writes often times it seems like he's taking something from the text that isn't there. In the Alysanne article he frames the info in such a way where it looks like pretty much every decision she makes is made with perfect calculation.

I know the books reward careful analysis and I like reading his articles, truly, but there are often times where I think he's looking too much into things.

I shouldn't have said almost every article.

[Beautiful Balon]

KL resisted.

Yeah but they didn't make the Lannisters undergo a lengthy siege and the city was taken very quickly without needing an assault. Typically the whole looting and sacking of resisting cities was to encourage them to surrender quickly and kingslanding fell incredibly quickly. We also have the opinion of Jorah and Ned that it was immoral so we can't go by cultural relativism because that shows that it was an action that was seen as unacceptable by some prominent members of society. Furthermore we have an example of a battle happening in a town where the civilian population was not actively targeted (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Battle_of_the_Bells).

Tywin also possess a motive for making sure the sack is brutal, to make it absolutely clear which side he is on during a time of war when he is engaged in battle. We know that he worried about getting into a fight with Robert/Neds forces because he mentioned it in the chapter where he talked about Elia and we know that one reason he killed Aegon was to make his loyalties known. By brutally sacking kingslanding he removes any doubt which side he's on in a highly visible way that will prevent hostilities between him and the rebels.

[BryndenBFish]

That's not what I meant, I mean the articles that he writes often times it seems like he's taking something from the text that isn't there. In the Alysanne article he frames the info in such a way where it looks like pretty much every decision she makes is made with perfect calculation.

I know the books reward careful analysis and I like reading his articles, truly, but there are often times where I think he's looking too much into things.

I shouldn't have said almost every article.

Just as a quick FYI: There are 3 of us that write on the blog now. If you'd like to see what specifically I write about, you're welcome to check out the tag. That being said, I'm with Hear Me Meow, the books are detailed, dense and deserving of in-depth analysis. I'm not saying that everything is deserving of long analysis, but there are portions of the story that warrant a bit more.

I'm sorry. I just wasn't going to read the entire thing.

I've never been a huge fan of the Lannisters but I've never had an issue with Kevan. In fact, he's a pretty interesting and fairly likable character.

I know he was a follower but he was a loyal and faithful follower. Not everyone can be a leader.

You have every right to your opinion and you did put in some work for this post. But I think you might have over-analyzed.

This isn't over analysis, it's essentially a 3-part analysis looking at the Sack of King's Landing, the Riverlands chevauchee & Cersei's walk. It's intended and hopefully written to present an opinion on why Kevan isn't as likable as he's popularly thought of. And while it's a real fear of over-analysis (seriously, I worry about it), I don't know how you can describe it as such without having read it...

[BryndenBFish]

That's not what I meant, I mean the articles that he writes often times it seems like he's taking something from the text that isn't there. In the Alysanne article he frames the info in such a way where it looks like pretty much every decision she makes is made with perfect calculation.

I know the books reward careful analysis and I like reading his articles, truly, but there are often times where I think he's looking too much into things.

I shouldn't have said almost every article.

Just as a quick FYI: There are 4 of us that write on the blog now. If you'd like to see what specifically I write about, you're welcome to check out the tag. That being said, I'm with Hear Me Meow, the books are detailed, dense and deserving of in-depth analysis. I'm not saying that everything is deserving of long analysis, but there are portions of the story that warrant a bit more.

I'm sorry. I just wasn't going to read the entire thing.

I've never been a huge fan of the Lannisters but I've never had an issue with Kevan. In fact, he's a pretty interesting and fairly likable character.

I know he was a follower but he was a loyal and faithful follower. Not everyone can be a leader.

You have every right to your opinion and you did put in some work for this post. But I think you might have over-analyzed.

This isn't over analysis, it's essentially a 3-part analysis looking at the Sack of King's Landing, the Riverlands chevauchee & Cersei's walk. It's intended and hopefully written to present an opinion on why Kevan isn't as likable as he's popularly thought of. And while over-analysis is a very real personal fear of mine (seriously, I worry that the analyzing ASOIAF has zero value both to the community and to myself), I don't know how you can describe it as such without having read it...

[The Wolves]

I have never liked Keven Lannister for most of the reasons stated, I'm glad he got the same death as Tywin he wasn't a good man at all he got what he deserved.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

Because terrorizing the country was Tywin's policy, as was Roose'.

Because that's the policy and methods of the Ironborn.

No comment.

Maybe we should start prosecuting people for things they "most likely" did?

Though it seems like you're the proponent of the opposite, "let's not blame anyone for any crimes". Hey, let's stop prosecuting crimes like rape or murder altogether? Since, you know, they "happen" a lot today, too, in war and in peacetime.

No, they do not "happen", as if they're natural disasters. Earthquakes happen. Rape and murder are the things that certain people do, crimes they commit.

Stannis and Lord Tarly have stong discipline in their armies, and do not allow rape when they take a city or town or village. Both Stannis and Lord Tarly are said to hang or geld rapists and I imagine it was the same in Ned's army. I think it is strongly implied that things that allowed in Roose's army are not allowed in Robb's. Robb's greatest error was placing the other army in the hands of Roose (side-note: Cat thought this was a great idea). Tywin doesn't just allow rape and murder in his army, he encourages as a tool of terror in war.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

That's not what I meant, I mean the articles that he writes often times it seems like he's taking something from the text that isn't there. In the Alysanne article he frames the info in such a way where it looks like pretty much every decision she makes is made with perfect calculation.

I know the books reward careful analysis and I like reading his articles, truly, but there are often times where I think he's looking too much into things.

I shouldn't have said almost every article.

I think the Alysanne article is by Nina Friel not BFish himself. He has four writers writing on his blog.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Stannis and Lord Tarly have stong discipline in their armies, and do not allow rape when they take a city or town or village. Both Stannis and Lord Tarly are said to hang or geld rapists and I imagine it was the same in Ned's army. I think it is strongly implied that things that allowed in Roose's army are not allowed in Robb's. Robb's greatest error was placing the other army in the hands of Roose (side-note: Cat thought this was a great idea). Tywin doesn't just allow rape and murder in his army, he encourages as a tool of terror in war.

Where is this implied?

The fact that Tarly was worried about his own soldiers (officers no less) raping an ally in Brienne shows how prevalent rape was amongst soldiers in the medieval ages. Every army in Westeros has had examples of soldiers raping.

What Tywin did to Tysha was a reprehensible act, but there is no evidence that he actively encouraged his men to rape in Kings Landing or the Riverlands. He certainly looked the other way and was more concerned about results than the lives of the smallfolk.

Trying to paint Tywin, and Kevan by association, as some kind of boogeyman ordering evil for the sake of it is missing a lot from the actual character.

[Red Tiger]

Did GRRM decide between book 1 and 3 that the Boltons were the Starks historical rivals? Cause I find it odd that Cat knew all of these things about the Northern lords, yet told her son to give his infantry to Roose.

[John Doe]

When did Robb send men out to die in spite for his fathers death?

When he wanted to march on KL. It happens in AGOT, just a minor event.

[Ser Joe the Unknighted]

It's specifically said in the book that Stannis doesn't allow rape in his army and Lord Tarly is said to have gelded men for rape.

A Feast for Crows - Brienne III

"I know what Lord Randyll does with outlaws," Brienne said. "I know what he does with rapers too."

She had hoped the name might cow them, but the serjeant only flicked egg off his fingers and signaled to his men to spread out. Brienne found herself surrounded by steel points. "What was it you was saying, wench? What is it that Lord Tarly does to . . ."

". . . rapers," a deeper voice finished. "He gelds them or sends them to the Wall. Sometimes both. And he cuts fingers off thieves." A languid young man stepped from the gatehouse, a swordbelt buckled at his waist. The surcoat he wore above his steel had once been white, and here and there still was, beneath the grass stains and dried blood. His sigil was displayed across his chest: a brown deer, dead and bound and slung beneath a pole.

"All I did was protect Val and the babe against looters when the wildlings fled, and keep them there until the rangers found us. I never captured anyone. King Stannis keeps his men well in hand, that's plain. He lets them plunder some, but I've only heard of three wildling women being raped, and the men who did it have all been gelded. I suppose I should have been killing the free folk as they ran. Ser Alliser has been putting it about that the only time I bared my sword was to defend our foes. I failed to kill Mance Rayder because I was in league with him, he says."

[Chaircat Meow]

It's specifically said in the book that Stannis doesn't allow rape in his army and Lord Tarly is said to have gelded men for rape.

A Feast for Crows - Brienne III

"I know what Lord Randyll does with outlaws," Brienne said. "I know what he does with rapers too."

She had hoped the name might cow them, but the serjeant only flicked egg off his fingers and signaled to his men to spread out. Brienne found herself surrounded by steel points. "What was it you was saying, wench? What is it that Lord Tarly does to . . ."

". . . rapers," a deeper voice finished. "He gelds them or sends them to the Wall. Sometimes both. And he cuts fingers off thieves." A languid young man stepped from the gatehouse, a swordbelt buckled at his waist. The surcoat he wore above his steel had once been white, and here and there still was, beneath the grass stains and dried blood. His sigil was displayed across his chest: a brown deer, dead and bound and slung beneath a pole.

Tarly is trying to restore order in the king's lands. He's not waging war on the enemy's lands.

Tywin specifically told Tyrion to keep the Vale wildlings in check when he proposed taking them to KL.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Did GRRM decide between book 1 and 3 that the Boltons were the Starks historical rivals? Cause I find it odd that Cat knew all of these things about the Northern lords, yet told her son to give his infantry to Roose.

Cat suggested Roose for one Battle, not that he would have leadership over the majority of the Northern military for the remainder of the War. How would Cat know that the two Northern armies would not unite?

The Boltons have been loyal vassals for a very long time, I am sure that many of the Starks vassals have been a problem at one point or another in the last few thousand years. It would be silly not to trust them for something their ancestors did centuries ago.

[Red Tiger]

Cat suggested Roose for one Battle, not that he would have leadership over the majority of the Northern military for the remainder of the War. How would Cat know that the two Northern armies would not unite?

The Boltons have been loyal vassals for a very long time, I am sure that many of the Starks vassals have been a problem at one point or another in the last few thousand years. It would be silly not to trust them for something their ancestors did centuries ago.

Right, my bad, I remembered it differently.

As for the loyal vassals for a long time thing, that would be a fine argument for me were it not that the North takes pride in never forgetting. The North Never Forgets and stuff.

[BryndenBFish]

What Tywin did to Tysha was a reprehensible act, but there is no evidence that he actively encouraged his men to rape in Kings Landing or the Riverlands. He certainly looked the other way and was more concerned about results than the lives of the smallfolk.

Trying to paint Tywin, and Kevan by association, as some kind of boogeyman ordering evil for the sake of it is missing a lot from the actual character.

What would you call Tywin's statement to Tyrion on what Vargo Hoat (and by extension the other foragers -- Gregor Clegane & Amory Lorch) are up to and how Tyrion's clansmen can be used?

When they were alone, Lord Tywin glanced at Tyrion. "Your savages might relish a bit of rapine. Tell them they may ride with Vargo Hoat and plunder as they like—goods, stock, women, they may take what they want and burn the rest." (AGOT, Tyrion XI)

You think that might be a little rape-y or is this just "how things were." And even if that's "how things were", that seems almost like Tywin ordering the action. Or is he just "suggesting" it, but not ordering it? And isn't that splitting hairs.

[Red Tiger]

When he wanted to march on KL. It happens in AGOT, just a minor event.

If Robb didn't fight to avenge his dad, his bannermen would lose a ton of respect for him. The Northmen seem to think that taking revenge is a good thing.

[melx]

another topic about how bad Lannisters are :bang: :bang: :bang:

does it ever end ?

and this guy is well known about his Stannis delusions :ack:

not to mention his blog where he and his mates show their admiration for Hoster Tully(killer of his own grandchild),hate toward Daenerys (only "female" among them said "i hate Daenerys" on pc) & nonsenses like stark honor etc

if you think i`m to harsh try and listen their podcast where they blame "evil" (again) Lannister this time Tyrion "for sending Young Griff to Westeros" - no mentioning of Meereen being under siege,no mentioning of Volantis going to war against Dany,no mentioning that Golden Company has broken contract(no going back),no mentioning of going by foot to Meereen is not an option etc.......according to BryndenBFish and his little gathering :only reason Griff & Golden Company went to Westeros is because evil Tyrion said :"go west" and that's it :bang:

and now Kevan is evil to,sure he is not perfect (all characters in ASOIAF are far from it) but going in such detail and blowing out of proportion small things Kevan did while totally overlooking & ignoring pure evil done by starks,tully's & baratheons is ridicules.

[Night'sQueen]

Right, my bad, I remembered it differently.

As for the loyal vassals for a long time thing, that would be a fine argument for me were it not that the North takes pride in never forgetting. The North Never Forgets and stuff.

And early in AGoT when Ned is talking to Cat about a possible need to prepare for war he instructs her to contact Tallhart, Glover and Manderly. No mention of Bolton.

[Red Tiger]

and this guy is well known about his Stannis delusions :ack:

SHHHH, we do not talk about those. :lol: