IMNHAAO Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Diffr'nt strokes for diffr'nt folks. I'm the opposite. I think it is too late in the game for him to try to add any sort of depth or explanation for Others' that would qualify under his "no good or evil" concept. That would cheapen the story for me. As far as your first paragraph, I think simplification works because my response is also pretty simple. Humans are monsters, yes, but they're human. At the risk of sounding like a facebook meme, people are just people no matter the little differences. Ultimately I think they will side with their own species. I'll support the Lannisters over the Others if it really comes down to it. Yes, it is absolutely a matter of perspective, because ultimately I don't think I will never take sides based solely on my species. Put it down as one of the innumerable defective parts in my brain. :ohwell: Poor George, he will displease someone at the end in all possible respects. Whoever will finish up on top will create disgruntled readers, whoever will be the good side will discontent the grey proponents..... we are demanding little spoiled brats sometimes, so let me clarify that, yes "Others = wholly evil" would somewhat cheapen the story for me in that respect, but of course it would not diminish in any way the respect I have for his writing nor the enjoyment I derive from his stories. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 19, 2015 Author Share Posted July 19, 2015 Poor George, he will displease someone at the end in all possible respects. Whoever will finish up on top will create disgruntled readers, whoever will be the good side will discontent the grey proponents..... we are demanding little spoiled brats sometimes, so let me clarify that, yes "Others = wholly evil" would somewhat cheapen the story for me in that respect, but of course it would not diminish in any way the respect I have for his writing nor the enjoyment I derive from his stories. :) Oh most definitely not. I would love the books if all the "cliche" elements happen. That includes the Others being nothing but evil. I wouldn't hate it if GRRM goes the opposite way, I'd just consider that a "meh" part of the narrative like the Ironborn. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 I think my brain has the same defect. My take is the WWs will be the main antagonists without being the 'big evil monsters'. ETA: meant two posts above mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasporio Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 European settlers who genocide the natives all around the world to exploit ressources didnt thought it was an evil act since they didnt saw them as humans. Jack the ripper probably considered that butchering prostitutes was an act of cleansing the filth in London streets. Hitler, Mao, Ghengis Khan etc... I'm not a supporter of relativism. Clearly, norms about what is evil differs in each societies, but killing people by thousand is actually evil IMO. Maybe the WW just see mankind as a pest, but from a human pov they're undoubtly evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Diffr'nt strokes for diffr'nt folks. I'm the opposite. I think it is too late in the game for him to try to add any sort of depth or explanation for Others' that would qualify under his "no good or evil" concept. That would cheapen the story for me. So if it comes to pass that they're roughly ice equivalents of the Red Priests, or the Undying, or Shadowbinders or similar (for example)-- basically anything other than Snidely Whiplash composed of ice-- this will cheapen the story in your view? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted July 19, 2015 Author Share Posted July 19, 2015 So if it comes to pass that they're roughly ice equivalents of the Red Priests, or the Undying, or Shadowbinders or similar (for example)-- basically anything other than Snidely Whiplash composed of ice-- this will cheapen the story in your view? Cheapen isn't the right word... Rugpull, last minute twist, might be a bit closer. I really just think its too late for him to humanize the ice magic north of the Wall. Perhaps it was never intended that way, so it could just be a consequence of his growing story. I'm not really a fan of any of the Red Priests or Shadowbinders though. I already consider Melisandre bad news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Diffr'nt strokes for diffr'nt folks. I'm the opposite. I think it is too late in the game for him to try to add any sort of depth or explanation for Others' that would qualify under his "no good or evil" concept. That would cheapen the story for me. As far as your first paragraph, I think simplification works because my response is also pretty simple. Humans are monsters, yes, but they're human. At the risk of sounding like a facebook meme, people are just people no matter the little differences. Ultimately I think they will side with their own species. I'll support the Lannisters over the Others if it really comes down to it. The motivations of the Others have probably been introduced already by Leaf (even if the CoTF are not working with the Others). Leaf says:"In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us". Bran then thinks: "Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sings sad songs, where men would fight and kill". The Others could just be more like men than CoTF and they are fighting extinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helikzhan Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 European settlers who genocide the natives all around the world to exploit ressources didnt thought it was an evil act since they didnt saw them as humans. Jack the ripper probably considered that butchering prostitutes was an act of cleansing the filth in London streets. Hitler, Mao, Ghengis Khan etc... I'm not a supporter of relativism. Clearly, norms about what is evil differs in each societies, but killing people by thousand is actually evil IMO. Maybe the WW just see mankind as a pest, but from a human pov they're undoubtly evil The motive doesn't always tell us why. For example we know Jack the Ripper despised prostitutes and other filth. But we don't know what brought him to that point of view. Because we can't get to where he was a lot of us ( I suppose some agree with him ) saw him as evil. My point was that when we are brought to the same conclusion as the perpetrator in this case it usually explains away the why and the act itself becomes not so evil after all. Still criminal but the mystery is gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caravaggio Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Yes, while I see the Others as evil (at least from the perspective of all the human characters), I think they might be attempting to fight off their own extinction. I really don't have anything to back it up, but I have a feeling that somehow their ability to reproduce was taken away at the end of the last Long Night.The story is about the human players though, so I don't think George is going to spend a lot of time explaining the Others and their motivations. There might be enough there for us to piece it together ourselves, or he may leave it up in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Yes, while I see the Others as evil (at least from the perspective of all the human characters), I think they might be attempting to fight off their own extinction. I really don't have anything to back it up, but I have a feeling that somehow their ability to reproduce was taken away at the end of the last Long Night. The story is about the human players though, so I don't think George is going to spend a lot of time explaining the Others and their motivations. There might be enough there for us to piece it together ourselves, or he may leave it up in the air. My theory is that the Weirwood consciousness/hivemind became more and more aggressive as men joined it. Then a faction developed within the hivemind resulting in the Long Night and the Others. The faction was appeased for a while but now they are back to finish the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helikzhan Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 The Others could just be more like men than CoTF and they are fighting extinction. Personally I don't see this as possible given the way the story has gone. Mance purposely rallied all the clans north of the wall together and marched them south to the wall. The entire time the Others were right on their heels picking off the strays. Geographically they were never impinged upon by man. The land they occupy has seen nary a human nor CoTF so to say they are defending themselves is seeing what isn't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helikzhan Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 My theory is that the Weirwood consciousness/hivemind became more and more aggressive as men joined it. Then a faction developed within the hivemind resulting in the Long Night and the Others. The faction was appeased for a while but now they are back to finish the job. I like the Weirwood bloodbath idea a lot. The notion that man and CotF stopped fighting starved the Weirwood so they invented the Others to fix that problem. Surprisingly not enough blood in the soil. Not yet anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Personally I don't see this as possible given the way the story has gone. Mance purposely rallied all the clans north of the wall together and marched them south to the wall. The entire time the Others were right on their heels picking off the strays. Geographically they were never impinged upon by man. The land they occupy has seen nary a human nor CoTF so to say they are defending themselves is seeing what isn't there. I like the Weirwood bloodbath idea a lot. The notion that man and CotF stopped fighting starved the Weirwood so they invented the Others to fix that problem. Surprisingly not enough blood in the soil. Not yet anyways. Obviously all I can do is speculate, but I can think of explanations of why the Others could be less than 100% evil. The angry hivemind faction is my favourite at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caravaggio Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 “(We’ll learn more about their) history, certainly, but I don’t know about culture,” he said. “I don’t know if they have a culture.” This part has always bugged me a little. If the Others are intelligent beings it would seem that they would have some sort of culture. It might not be one the characters would understand, but I'd think there would be one. It is also a quote that makes me think we really won't get that far into the details of what makes the Others tick. I can see us learning about their history as it concerns men via Bran, but if George hasn't really thought about things like their culture that tells me we are unlikely to really ever see them in a context other than as the enemies of men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion the kitten Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 We don't understand the nature of these dead wights, so "enslaving" may not be an appropriate word.They raise them, control them and use them without the dead person giving consent. And you can't say the dead person is no longer part of the wight, since memories of the dead person still remain. That sounds very similar to being a slave. Only difference is its on a more extreme level. But we don't have the full story on the wights so I'll refrain from using the word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 My theory is that the Weirwood consciousness/hivemind became more and more aggressive as men joined it. Then a faction developed within the hivemind resulting in the Long Night and the Others. The faction was appeased for a while but now they are back to finish the job. So--humans plus weirnet helps create territorial Others? Now that's interesting--could explain why the Long Night came after the Pact, even though we don't know what triggered the Long Night. If the Children taught humans how to engage with the weirwoods and then the human/conquering ideas got into the weirnet---that could work. Might even explain why Leaf and Co. need a human greenseer. Fits the novels' trope that humans usually make the monsters. This has possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Let's not forget they accept human sacrifices. While it's not confirmed in the books, it is strongly hinted that The Others are transformed humans (ex: Craster's sons). There's nothing redeemable about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caravaggio Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 Let's not forget they accept human sacrifices. While it's not confirmed in the books, it is strongly hinted that The Others are transformed humans (ex: Craster's sons). There's nothing redeemable about this. This, to me, says otherwise: The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous. That seems to rule out the Others origins as humans dead or transformed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 This, to me, says otherwise: That seems to rule out the Others origins as humans dead or transformed. Does anyone have the full exchange between Martin and Patterson? It's been a long time since I read it, but wasn't Martin talking specifically about physical appearance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 19, 2015 Share Posted July 19, 2015 So--humans plus weirnet helps create territorial Others? Now that's interesting--could explain why the Long Night came after the Pact, even though we don't know what triggered the Long Night. If the Children taught humans how to engage with the weirwoods and then the human/conquering ideas got into the weirnet---that could work. Might even explain why Leaf and Co. need a human greenseer. Fits the novels' trope that humans usually make the monsters. This has possibilities. Yes. My timeline would be: - ca. -12000: First men arrive to Westeros and a war starts between the Weirnet/CoTF and men - ca -10000: Signing of The Pact of the isle of Faces. Borders are established. Men start joining the Weirnet incorporating human traits - ca -8000: Men have multiplied and expanded beyond the borders. A faction developed within the Weirnet that seeks revenge. The war ends with a new pact. The Wall is the new border. - 297 AC: Due to the long summer men have multiplied again and there are now more than 50000 living beyond the wall. Facing extintion the mayority of the Weirnet decides that is time for another culling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.