The Others & Evil: GRRM's Words

[falcotron]

Literally the only time necromancy against humans has ever been portrayed in a *good* light is Ed Wood's infamous Plan Nine From Outer Space

So I'm assuming you were raised in an Orthodox Satanist house and consider, e.g., Revelation 20:4-5 to be proof of Jesus's evil? And likewise for all of the other religions that have stories about the dead being resurrected or reanimated by gods?

[William MK Stark]

 

Trying to put the world into eternal dark and winter, together with raising the dead and sending them against the living, is about as good a moral signpost as you're ever going to get.

 

The Others are Evil. The only remaining question is what sort of Evil they are.

How do you know their goal is to bring about eternal winter ? It's all legend and myth.

Also by that reasoning, the humans are the ultimate evil to the Others, ever wanting and in case of the Red Priests, trying to bring about an eternal summer that would surely be the end of all beings made of Ice. 

 

 

Literally the only time necromancy against humans has ever been portrayed in a *good* light is Ed Wood's infamous Plan Nine From Outer Space - where you find space aliens trying to scare humans into stopping work on a dangerous weapon. It's also considered the worst film ever made.

We don't know what soft of magic of the Others actually do, if it is the traditional bringing the corrupted soul back to the body or just using the bodies as vessel. 

Also, why would it need to be in anyway "good" ? You can be ruthless towards your enemies in a war, that does not make you a complete monster by default. 

 

[William MK Stark]

As stated, I believe that GRRM has been subtly laying the seeds for the reveal for the Others' nature. This could be implied by his definition of Ice and Fire in the series:

 

Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books.

 

Through brief and somewhat vague, this sure makes for interesting consideration. The Fire part points to the human side, but on a personal level, it points most prominently to Daenerys and her dragons. The Ice side points to the Others and inhumanity. But among the human characters, one arc personifies this description best, one about facing betrayals and coldness, about the need for revenge and about the loss of identity and humanity. This statement by Martin kind of supports this:

 

If a twelve-year old has to conquer the world, then so be it.

 

Most take it as metaphorical, but what if it is literal ? This is one of the most beloved character, being the only one to have POVs in all the books, who most people sympathize with. Should she in someway turn to the Others' side, it will most certainly enable them to become more understandable and sympathetic as well. 

[The Marquis de Leech]

So I'm assuming you were raised in an Orthodox Satanist house and consider, e.g., Revelation 20:4-5 to be proof of Jesus's evil? And likewise for all of the other religions that have stories about the dead being resurrected or reanimated by gods?

 

I said Necromancy against humans. Neither Lazarus nor Revelation is a case of raising an army of zombies to attack the living.

[The Marquis de Leech]

 

How do you know their goal is to bring about eternal winter ? It's all legend and myth.

 

The Others bring cold with them. And they're heading south. 

 

Also by that reasoning, the humans are the ultimate evil to the Others, ever wanting and in case of the Red Priests, trying to bring about an eternal summer that would surely be the end of all beings made of Ice. 

 

Perhaps they are. Except that we cheer for the humans, because we are human. If we were a species of Ice Elves, things might be different.

 

We don't know what soft of magic of the Others actually do, if it is the traditional bringing the corrupted soul back to the body or just using the bodies as vessel. 

Also, why would it need to be in anyway "good" ? You can be ruthless towards your enemies in a war, that does not make you a complete monster by default. 

 

You can be ruthless without resorting to certain things. Necromantic zombie armies have pretty strong negative connotations within your average reader. 

[William MK Stark]

 

The Others bring cold with them. And they're heading south. 

 

 

 

Perhaps they are. Except that we cheer for the humans, because we are human. If we were a species of Ice Elves, things might be different.

 

 

 

You can be ruthless without resorting to certain things. Necromantic zombie armies have pretty strong negative connotations within your average reader. 

 Humans bring burning torches with them, and before the Others attacked, they were heading north.

 

 It's true that it's easier to understand and sympathize with someone like yourself, but the ignorance to other races' cultures and values has been the cause for war and misery in both literature and the real world. Taking a one sided look at things is how most sins are committed.

 

 It does have that effect on average readers, but ASoIaF is supposed to be looked into much more in-depth. Moreover, just like the previous point, necromancy is unacceptable to humans but may not be so by the Others' standards, another possibility is that they are in such a desperate situation that they cannot afford to be more moral. 

[William MK Stark]

double post

[IMNHAAO]

 

....................

Also by that reasoning, the humans are the ultimate evil to the Others, ever wanting and in case of the Red Priests, trying to bring about an eternal summer that would surely be the end of all beings made of Ice. 

..................................

 

 

Actually an eternal summer (just like an eternal winter) would be the end of almost all life forms not just the ones made by ice so it would be just as undesirable for everyone.

Which begs the question of why the Others would even want an eternal winter because if they have evolved in a world where there are seasons, they need them as anyone else. Unless they are so different to be dependent on no one else but themselves for continual survival, i.e. they are made of ice, do not eat but if they do they eat ice and so on... which would make them the most boring (and unlikely) species ever invented even in a fantasy setting where a minimum of plausibility should still be present, well at least for my taste. :worried:
 

[William MK Stark]

Actually an eternal summer (just like an eternal winter) would be the end of almost all life forms not just the ones made by ice so it would be just as undesirable for everyone.

Which begs the question of why the Others would even want an eternal winter because if they have evolved in a world where there are seasons, they need them as anyone else. Unless they are so different to be dependent on no one else but themselves for continual survival, i.e. they are made of ice, do not eat but if they do they eat ice and so on... which would make them the most boring (and unlikely) species ever invented even in a fantasy setting where a minimum of plausibility should still be present, well at least for my taste. :worried:
 

Yeah, just saying that was something the people in the story want to happen, not what I think would be good. Too much of anything can create unwanted destructive effects.

About the Others and the winter, we're still not so sure that bringing the eternal winter is their true intention, or if they are really capable of bringing winter, even in the books it's unsure whether they bring the cold or the cold brings them. That being said, it's possible that because the lands they live in is always winter, they have evolved to adapt to it, like the dragons are mostly immune to heat.

[LordStoneheart]

 

anyway, point being, I think your anxiety about this might be a bit misplaced.  The foundations for more ambiguity and complexity are thoroughly set down.

 

It's not anxiety. It's doubt. I just genuinely don't think he's done enough build-up to reveal the Others as anything but a wholly bad force. My other point was that there is nothing wrong with that. I've presented an alternative interpretation of his quotes that I do think has some ground, especially since his actual words about the Others show nothing but "bad." If there is ambiguity about the Others wanting to destroy everything we would call "life" I'm not seeing it yet.

[IMNHAAO]

Yeah, just saying that was something the people in the story want to happen, not what I think would be good. Too much of anything can create unwanted destructive effects.

About the Others and the winter, we're still not so sure that bringing the eternal winter is their true intention, or if they are really capable of bringing winter, even in the books it's unsure whether they bring the cold or the cold brings them. That being said, it's possible that because the lands they live in is always winter, they have evolved to adapt to it, like the dragons are mostly immune to heat.

I am sorry if I am not being clear, my ac isn't working and it has been a few days of sleeping very little and very badly because of the heat which might explain my not hostile stance on the Others. :laugh:

I meant to say that to my knowledge one life form can evolve to survive extreme conditions, but usually its life depends on other life forms, but if the Others really wanted (and I am not sure they do) a perennial winter that could only mean two things: they are suicidal or they are self-sustaining beings.
 

It might be the GRRM went the easy way with the Others, so they are evil, they are made of ice, want to bring eternal winter and would survive in a  world where only them were alive, but I find it so ... easy. I mean he even made the dragon not immune to fire, but didn't bother to flesh out a bit more the Others?

I am not even sure I am explaining what I really mean, which means that work will be... interesting today considering that I cannot even write a sensible post on the board. Sorry, I will clarify if necessary. :shocked:

[William MK Stark]

I am sorry if I am not being clear, my ac isn't working and it has been a few days of sleeping very little and very badly because of the heat which might explain my not hostile stance on the Others. :laugh:

I meant to say that to my knowledge one life form can evolve to survive extreme conditions, but usually its life depends on other life forms, but if the Others really wanted (and I am not sure they do) a perennial winter that could only mean two things: they are suicidal or they are self-sustaining beings.
 

It might be the GRRM went the easy way with the Others, so they are evil, they are made of ice, want to bring eternal winter and would survive in a  world where only them were alive, but I find it so ... easy. I mean he even made the dragon not immune to fire, but didn't bother to flesh out a bit more the Others?

I am not even sure I am explaining what I really mean, which means that work will be... interesting today considering that I cannot even write a sensible post on the board. Sorry, I will clarify if necessary. :shocked:

Got it. Don't worry. I think he will manage to flesh them out in the next book ( named WoW after all) and give us a more sensible look into them instead taking the easy road. A little patience.  ;)

[zeppelincheetah]

I have a theory that the Others are the personification of winter.  It has been said that the air gets colder when they get nearer.  Maybe they literally are the race of winter and every winter's length is determined by how far they are able to advance.  The humans are the personification of summer.  Humans have the power to create fires to drive back the cold. 

[falcotron]

I said Necromancy against humans. Neither Lazarus nor Revelation is a case of raising an army of zombies to attack the living.

So who do you think the armies of Gog and Magog, etc., are if not living people? (The first war is even more obvious, because the enemy is explicitly described as all of mankind who aren't sealed by God and haven't been killed by the plagues, but in that one, it's less clear whether God's forces involve those who have been awakened from death.)

Or, if you don't want to reread Revelation, you can always reread The Lord of the Rings, where Aragorn used an army of zombies to defeat the living men of Umbar at Pelargir. Of course it was Isildur who cursed them to be zombies until some descendant needed them to attack the living, and Aragorn only used the army his ancestor had left him, but they're both clearly painted as heroes, not bad guys.

And there are also numerous modern fantasy stories where, e.g., Anita Blake raises an army of zombies to fight the human servants of a powerful vampire so she can get to the vampire herself.

Even in ASoIaF, what exactly did Thoros do but reanimate a corpse to carry on attacking evil living people? Does this make Thoros as bad guy?

In fact, the oldest account of necromancy we have was Odysseus using necromantic rituals to raise Tiresias from the dead, although he just wanted to ask him for directions, not use him to attack the living.

[butterbumps!]

Cat playing with mouse.

That looks to you like the Others are purposely tormenting Royce?    That one Other meets him in a swordfight while the others stay back, injures him, then there's something that looks a lot like a mercy kill.

 

And what's your point anyway?   Note that I wasn't arguing that Others = knights, or that they are already complex and morally ambiguous, or any particular theory of the Others for that matter.   The issue is if it comes to pass that the Others are morally ambiguous and more complex, would that be a rugpull.  And the answer is no, not really, there's some passages, like the Prologue, that can read as having supported that development.

 

It's not anxiety. It's doubt. I just genuinely don't think he's done enough build-up to reveal the Others as anything but a wholly bad force. My other point was that there is nothing wrong with that. I've presented an alternative interpretation of his quotes that I do think has some ground, especially since his actual words about the Others show nothing but "bad." If there is ambiguity about the Others wanting to destroy everything we would call "life" I'm not seeing it yet.

I don't understand your doubt.   All those quotes you provide do build it up to suggest that it won't be as simple.    

 

And what words about the Others?  You mean in SSMs, his words when we see Others on page directly, or the words other characters say about them?

 

I'm not arguing at the moment whether the Others will turn out to be more complex and morally ambiguous.  Rather, I'm saying that there's really no believability obstacle to it happening at this point, as the way they appear on page, the fact that they've been purposely kept mysterious and seem due for an information dump, existing Northern myths and lore that might turn out to involve the Others, the way fire and other magic has been developed, and those SSMs you provide all seem like they could support the moral ambiguity route.  

[ironBanker]

Got it. Don't worry. I think he will manage to flesh them out in the next book ( named WoW after all) and give us a more sensible look into them instead taking the easy road. A little patience.  ;)

He might not. 

 

GRRM has stated, that he is deliberately keeping the details of magic vague (like in LotR).

He might feel the same regarding the Others.

 

Lovecraft kept the Great Old Ones vague, and they were scarier.

Subsequent authors fleshed them out. Not so scary anymore.

 

The "otherness" of the Others will be lost when we read about Lord Frosty getting drunk on icewine and building a snow dick.

[SevasTra82]

GRRM is a very deep, well-thought out author.  Making The Others "pure evil" with no depth is a very shallow way of writing for him.  It just simply goes against his writing style (even all the way back to the Armageddon Rag in the 70's).  I just can't believe that all of a sudden, in his biggest magnum-opus on this planet, that he's going to change his mantra.

 

Also, keep in mind that GRRM is a gardener, and has often said that he knew the major plot points of the series ahead of time, but the paths and specifics to those plot lines he did not know.  People tend to believe that authors (in general) know everything about their series before they finish it...and that's simply not the case.  When GRRM was asked about The Others 15 years ago..he probably had NO clue their details yet...only the end-game.  (Hence why he said.."keep reading" etc in interviews).

 

I guarantee, much like the original story line we saw in his draft...that his original thought/plan for The Others has completely flipped on it's head.  We've already seen evidence from his earlier interviews to present-day that he's changed things mid-stream, so citing decade old interviews should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

For an even more recent example, just a few months ago on his blog he even stated that he came out with a controversial "twist" in his story that he didn't think of before that he thought of including.  That right there shows that this story and its major plot lines are organically growing as he's writing.

 

I guess my point is....you can't take old interviews from GRRM and believe they hold much weight a decade later, and it's never been in GRRM's mantra to write shallow characters (The Others being pure evil, nothing more)...and I find it hard to believe he would start doing so with ASOIAF.

[LordStoneheart]

My believability obstacle would be that I see no moral ambiguity or even a hint towards it in the books so far for the Others. I read the prologue differently. I see it as taunting. Not just how they interacted with Waymar but what they did with the wildling bodies. The battle at the Fist, the attack on Small Paul and Samwell, the attack on Bran and Hardhome, all of those seem pretty unambiguous. (I know we don't know what happened at Hardhome yet, but the letter does not bode well.)

[Mithras]

 

That one Other meets him in a swordfight while the others stay back, injures him, then there's something that looks a lot like a mercy kill.

 

Ser Waymar Royce found his fury. “For Robert!” he shouted, and he came up snarling, lifting the frost-covered longsword with both hands and swinging it around in a flat sidearm slash with all his weight behind it. The Other’s parry was almost lazy.

When the blades touched, the steel shattered.

A scream echoed through the forest night, and the longsword shivered into a hundred brittle pieces, the shards scattering like a rain of needles. Royce went to his knees, shrieking, and covered his eyes. Blood welled between his fingers.

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

 

This does not look like mercy killing to me.

[LordStoneheart]

I guess my point is....you can't take old interviews from GRRM and believe they hold much weight a decade later, and it's never been in GRRM's mantra to write shallow characters (The Others being pure evil, nothing more)...and I find it hard to believe he would start doing so with ASOIAF.

I have very mixed thoughts about the 93 letter, but I don't think it's entirely useless just because some things have changed since then. The story has kept the basic framework of what the letter outlined. If in 1993 he wrote that he was going to have "demons" ride down to destroy all life, that shows at some point he did not have a problem writing that kind of enemy. It's entirely possible that has changed, but he does have the capability to do so.