The Others & Evil: GRRM's Words

[caravaggio]

Does anyone have the full exchange between Martin and Patterson? It's been a long time since I read it, but wasn't Martin talking specifically about physical appearance?

 

IIRC Patterson quoted only part of George's email to him. Patterson is talking appearance for the graphic novel, but the quote (to me) speaks of their nature as well. "Not dead" and "inhuman" aren't really characteristics of appearance.

 

Concerning Sidhe: (from wikipedia)

 

 

The aos sí  older form aes sídhe is the Irish term for a supernatural race in Irish mythology and Scottish mythology (usually spelled Sìth, however pronounced the same), comparable to the fairies or elves. They are said to live underground in fairy mounds, across the western sea, or in an invisible world that coexists with the world of humans. This world is described in the Book of Invasions (recorded in the Book of Leinster) as a parallel universe in which the aos sí walk amongst the living. In the Irish language, aos sí means "people of the mounds" (the mounds are known in Irish as "the sídhe"). In Irish literature the people of the mounds are also called daoine sídhe [ˈdiːnʲə ˈʃiːə]; in Scottish mythology they are daoine sìth. They are variously said to be the ancestors, the spirits of nature, or goddesses and gods.

[kissdbyfire]

It could very well be just a way to put a face to the description.

[Black Crow]

Does anyone have the full exchange between Martin and Patterson? It's been a long time since I read it, but wasn't Martin talking specifically about physical appearance?

 

I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. Here is what George said, in one e-mail: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”

 

And then of course more recently:

 

Posted 16 March 2015 - 04:47 PM

In an interruption to our advertised program I'm watching a feature on Sky Atlantic, providing a catch up on the HBO series thus far and featuring interviews with [among others] GRRM, who has just confirmed that when Sam pinked Ser Puddles "he broke the spell holding him together." 

 

So from both we can conclude that they are "different" because to quote Stannis Baratheon they are not flesh and blood, but "Demons made of snow and ice and cold" They are not born but made by magic. Craster's changeling sons and that magic spell holding them together can be broken by dragonglass.

[caravaggio]

I thought of Craster's sons more as the sacrifice needed to bring about some magic than the Others somehow using them to make copies of themselves.

[Crippledtank]

I think the big difference is that the Others almost seem like wights themselves. The idea that they aren't really living or "never born" is what seperates them from orcs and elves.
Dragons are fire made flesh
Could Others be ice made flesh?
There doesn't seem to be many different personalities for the dragons


Although it is odd for GRRM to say it's silly how orcs are all the same and then go tadaaa here's the Others but I think we're jumping the gun.
The POV we get of the Others is similar to all the history we have on Vikings in RL and that's a view from the victims. Who only witnessed the carnage or their warriors, not their customs, family past times or Sunday worship ceremonies



... For all we know They could be alien invaders from the future where global warming is making their world uninhabitable for them so they want to slaughter man kind before too much greenhouse gas is accumulated. In which case they're are evil because their environmentalists (jokes of course)

[HoodedCrow]

The Others have enough personality to dress, make weapons, have learned sword skills, laugh, bully, plan, make deals with Craster, selectively adopt, selectively kill, communicate, form hunting parties, and I'm sure there is more. They are anthropomorphic, and intelligent.

That is not to say that they wouldn't scare the crap out of me, and if I were a Westerosi, prepare to resist violently, and as completely as necessary, because they might be evil to my existence. However, they may be capable of making a deal, if humans appeared organized and threatening enough to do so.

Martin does not want to develop their culture much, but that does not mean that it just isn't in scope, and would be bad story telling at this time. Shh.

[RoamingRonin]

This, to me, says otherwise:

 

 

That seems to rule out the Others origins as humans dead or transformed.

No, it doesn't. Vampires and zombies are inhuman yet they were human once. Besides, we Craster's wives telling Sam his sons are coming after the mutiny at the keep. I don't see how this can be misinterpreted.

[caravaggio]

No, it doesn't. Vampires and zombies are inhuman yet they were human once. Besides, we Craster's wives telling Sam his sons are coming after the mutiny at the keep. I don't see how this can be misinterpreted.

But vampires and zombies are dead, and he says they are not dead.

 

 

"They?" said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, "They. They. They."

"The boy's brothers," said the old woman on the left. "Craster's sons. The white cold's rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don't lie. They'll be here soon, the sons."

 

You might be right, but I can see other possibilities here. First, Craster's wives might think their sons have been turned to Others, but that might not actually be the case. They might be speaking of wights or something else the Others turned the babies into. It doesn't necessarily mean the Others were once Craster's sons.

[butterbumps!]

Cheapen isn't the right word... Rugpull, last minute twist, might be a bit closer. I really just think its too late for him to humanize the ice magic north of the Wall. Perhaps it was never intended that way, so it could just be a consequence of his growing story.
I'm not really a fan of any of the Red Priests or Shadowbinders though. I already consider Melisandre bad news.

 

Is it really a rugpull/ last minute twist?

 

I know I have some really unorthodox theories about the Others, but what I'm about to write has nothing to do with that, as I don't think offering an alternative theory about what the Others are is really all that useful in terms of what your OP is about.  

 

Rather, the issue I'm trying to speak to is your anxiety over the the idea of the Others being more complex and less obviously evil than a band of mustache-twirling demons intent on tying all of humanity to a proverbial train track.   You say that if it comes to pass that they aren't mustache-twirling demons, then it will feel like a last minute rug pull, since ostensibly Martin's led us to believe that's what the Others are so far.

 

But has he really not prepared us for more complex, perhaps even morally ambiguous Others?   

 

Before even getting into the text of ASOIAF itself, look again at all of those quotes you've provided in the OP.   All of these quotes you've pulled are actually fairly good evidence in favor of the Others not turning out to be mustache-twirling demons of unmitigated evil (despite the fact that you then go on to claim that they don't apply in this circumstance for some reason).   So, you've personally provided a bunch of quotes that ostensibly prepare us to expect that the Others are not mustache-twirling demons in this very thread!

 

But moving onto the text, we have fantastically good reason to believe they might not be simple mustache-twirling demons of unmitigated evil in the very first Prologue!   The Others are actually depicted a hell of a lot like knights.  In addition to having a language, wearing armor, wielding swords, and laughing, they even seem to display something that might be comparable to a code of honor in the way they fight Royce.   They don't all swarm on him willy nilly, or take cheap shots.   No, they stand around him in a circle, and fight one-on-one.

 

If you think about it, Martin's given us this half-glimpse of the Others, then pretty much withheld much further first-hand info about them for the next 4 books, keeping them hugely mysterious.   However, he has developed the fire side of things for us pretty well.  Ice and Fire are supposedly opposites (or even mirror images) in this story, and in light of the complexity and ambiguity he's shown us in relation to the fire priests, R'hollor, Valyria and the Targs, dragons, fire wights, etc etc, I'd say that more complexity and ambiguity for the ice side of things is decidedly well set up.  

 

It's kind of like he's shown us a small glimpse of ice then kept them highly mysterious, while developing the fire side with much more detail on page.  By the end of book 1, it kind of looks like ice is the problem and fire is what solves it, but then while we don't see that much from ice in the next books, the fire side starts looking way more ambiguous and less "saviory" than initially thought.   As in, one easily starts to think, "well maybe it's a lot more complicated than that after all."

 

anyway, point being, I think your anxiety about this might be a bit misplaced.  The foundations for more ambiguity and complexity are thoroughly set down.

[William MK Stark]

 

Is it really a rugpull/ last minute twist?

 

I know I have some really unorthodox theories about the Others, but what I'm about to write has nothing to do with that, as I don't think offering an alternative theory about what the Others are is really all that useful in terms of what your OP is about.  

 

Rather, the issue I'm trying to speak to is your anxiety over the the idea of the Others being more complex and less obviously evil than a band of mustache-twirling demons intent on tying all of humanity to a proverbial train track.   You say that if it comes to pass that they aren't mustache-twirling demons, then it will feel like a last minute rug pull, since ostensibly Martin's led us to believe that's what the Others are so far.

 

But has he really not prepared us for more complex, perhaps even morally ambiguous Others?   

 

Before even getting into the text of ASOIAF itself, look again at all of those quotes you've provided in the OP.   All of these quotes you've pulled are actually fairly good evidence in favor of the Others not turning out to be mustache-twirling demons of unmitigated evil (despite the fact that you then go on to claim that they don't apply in this circumstance for some reason).   So, you've personally provided a bunch of quotes that ostensibly prepare us to expect that the Others are not mustache-twirling demons in this very thread!

 

But moving onto the text, we have fantastically good reason to believe they might not be simple mustache-twirling demons of unmitigated evil in the very first Prologue!   The Others are actually depicted a hell of a lot like knights.  In addition to having a language, wearing armor, wielding swords, and laughing, they even seem to display something that might be comparable to a code of honor in the way they fight Royce.   They don't all swarm on him willy nilly, or take cheap shots.   No, they stand around him in a circle, and fight one-on-one.

 

If you think about it, Martin's given us this half-glimpse of the Others, then pretty much withheld much further first-hand info about them for the next 4 books, keeping them hugely mysterious.   However, he has developed the fire side of things for us pretty well.  Ice and Fire are supposedly opposites (or even mirror images) in this story, and in light of the complexity and ambiguity he's shown us in relation to the fire priests, R'hollor, Valyria and the Targs, dragons, fire wights, etc etc, I'd say that more complexity and ambiguity for the ice side of things is decidedly well set up.  

 

It's kind of like he's shown us a small glimpse of ice then kept them highly mysterious, while developing the fire side with much more detail on page.  By the end of book 1, it kind of looks like ice is the problem and fire is what solves it, but then while we don't see that much from ice in the next books, the fire side starts looking way more ambiguous and less "saviory" than initially thought.   As in, one easily starts to think, "well maybe it's a lot more complicated than that after all."

 

anyway, point being, I think your anxiety about this might be a bit misplaced.  The foundations for more ambiguity and complexity are thoroughly set down.

Fully agreed with your analysis, there's got to be more to the Others than we have seen. Also I think GRRM has already been building on the Ice side too, just more subtly.

[Mithras]

But moving onto the text, we have fantastically good reason to believe they might not be simple mustache-twirling demons of unmitigated evil in the very first Prologue!   The Others are actually depicted a hell of a lot like knights.  In addition to having a language, wearing armor, wielding swords, and laughing, they even seem to display something that might be comparable to a code of honor in the way they fight Royce.   They don't all swarm on him willy nilly, or take cheap shots.   No, they stand around him in a circle, and fight one-on-one.

 

This does not exclude the possibility that the Others consider humans as simpler life forms and do not call it evil to kill them similar to how (most) humans do not consider it evil to kill cattle. In fact, that was the same attitude in the evil vampires of Fevre Dream. Those vampires were addicted to human blood and did not consider it evil to kill humans for food.

[butterbumps!]

Fully agreed with your analysis, there's got to be more to the Others than we have seen. Also I think GRRM has already been building on the Ice side too, just more subtly.

 

I totally agree with that-- I was trying to cut things short in that post, but yea, I think there's even a few more bits of subtle clues too.  

 

And, honestly, I suspect that there's a lot of pieces of ancient history and Northern lore that we've been given that might connect to the Others that would also explain a whole lot, both about them, as well as certain Northern Houses, forming a very morally ambiguous picture.   I don't think speculating too much about that belongs in this particular thread, but the point I'm trying to make is that I think we already have some pieces of info that might turn out to pertain to the Others, so it wouldn't be a rugpull or rushed if it turns out that way.

[falcotron]

I think Martin needs to revist Tolkien's work if he thinks it's as morally simplistic as good elves and men vs evil orcs.

Just a few examples of morally questionable acts in Tolkien's work include The kinslaying at Alqualondë, the Oath of Fëanor, Eöl the Dark Elf throwing a poisened javelin at his own son and killing his wife instead. In fact The Silmarillion is largely about elves and men doing morally questionable things while there's a greater threat of pure evil looming... which really isn't any different to ASoIaF.

Agreed, except that I assume Martin does know Tolkien well enough to understand all of that. And that's why I think, contrary to the OP, that he really does mean that there are no orcs in his world, and therefore, the Others aren't orcs, and the wider idea that "no evil" in Martin's books doesn't apply to non-humans is wrong.

The obvious alternative--that the Others are as grey as we know humans are and as the Children seem to be, and are no more evil than Robb's forces are for being opposed to Stannis or vice-versa--isn't the only one.

Amris's idea that they're simply an elemental personification--which someone may be using for evil, or which may just be doing its natural thing--seems plausible. Evolett takes that idea further.

Black Crow argues that there may be a dozen or fewer Others, which means trying to understand their culture, or their group motivation rather than their individual motivations, is silly; they may individually.

Helikzhan seems to be arguing that if the Others are evil, it's for the same reasons that the Mountain is evil. You could extend this by pointing out that if the Others are converted from humans in an act of sacrifice, and sacrificial magic is evil, then this is just a matter of the sins of the father staining the child.

My point isn't that any one of these ideas is right. But none of them are just obviously wrong. So if you think that the Others must be pure evil because you think the only other possibility is that they're just like humans and you don't believe that, that's a failure of your imagination, not of Martin's writing.

[sweetsunray]

 

The motive doesn't always tell us why. For example we know Jack the Ripper despised prostitutes and other filth. But we don't know what brought him to that point of view.

 

Because we can't get to where he was a lot of us ( I suppose some agree with him ) saw him as evil.

 

My point was that when we are brought to the same conclusion as the perpetrator in this case it usually explains away the why and the act itself becomes not so evil after all. Still criminal but the mystery is gone.

 

Actually we don't know this about JtR. He may have killed prostitutes just because they were easier to get to. His butchering of the victims was post mortemly done. First their throat was cut, the slicing was done afterwards. We don't know who he is, and we're not even sure which victims were his and which weren't. For example, I definitely disagree with at least 1 canon victim being his, and count Martha Tabram (non-canon) as one of his victims... though she was stabbed, rather than sliced up. Imo she was the victim that altered his MO to slicing post mortem, instead of stabbing multiple times while alive. There's no evidence either that the letter writer or the kidney part sent was actually JtR. So, we don't "know" his motives at all, only speculation about it.

[falcotron]

The POV we get of the Others is similar to all the history we have on Vikings in RL and that's a view from the victims.

Actually, most of what we know about the Vikings comes from their descendants, not from their victims.

And the Catholic Scandinavians (and the later Lutherans even more so, and the still later enlightenment rationalists even more so) saw their ancestors very definitely as grey.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I mentioned Tad Williams earlier. Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn was (in Martin's own words) a major influence on ASOIAF Now in that case, you've got two species of (let's call them) Elves. One lot believe that they must try to exterminate humanity, the other's don't. The exterminators just happen to be associated with ice and cold, and bring about an apocalyptic winter. The more peaceful sorts just happen to live in the forest and magically resist winter. 

 

Williams gives his pseudo-Elf villains very clear grounds for hating humanity, and makes this clear throughout the series. Martin does not. Martin's story thus far has been one of humans engaging in silly political infighting while the real threat is encroaching on them: the drive of the narrative has been less about the Others seeking revenge for ancient wrongs, and more about the (so-far futile)  necessity of trying to unify humanity in the face of a greater threat.

 

It's entirely possible that the Others may see humanity as a pest to be purged, or that they may be some sort of amoral Lovecraftian creatures. But that doesn't change the fact that the Others are for our purposes, and the purposes of our human protagonists, evil. You'll never get an empathetic connection between human and Other, and if Martin tries, it'll be contrived shoehorning.   

 

But moving onto the text, we have fantastically good reason to believe they might not be simple mustache-twirling demons of unmitigated evil in the very first Prologue!   The Others are actually depicted a hell of a lot like knights.  In addition to having a language, wearing armor, wielding swords, and laughing, they even seem to display something that might be comparable to a code of honor in the way they fight Royce.   They don't all swarm on him willy nilly, or take cheap shots.   No, they stand around him in a circle, and fight one-on-one.

 

Cat playing with mouse.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Incidentally, to take Tolkien as an example: Morgoth and Sauron had very different personalities and goals (the former was a nihilistic Satanic Chaotic Evil figure, the latter was a devious organised Lawful Evil figure). That doesn't change the fact that for our Elvish/Human/Hobbit protagonists, and for the reader, Morgoth and Sauron are the (literal, capitalised) Enemy.

 

Having a complex antagonist is not the same as having a grey antagonist.   

[William MK Stark]

Incidentally, to take Tolkien as an example: Morgoth and Sauron had very different personalities and goals (the former was a nihilistic Satanic Chaotic Evil figure, the latter was a devious organised Lawful Evil figure). That doesn't change the fact that for our Elvish/Human/Hobbit protagonists, and for the reader, Morgoth and Sauron are the (literal, capitalised) Enemy.

 

Having a complex antagonist is not the same as having a grey antagonist.   

Yes, but thus far the Others have not been clearly placed into any of these categories, making judging them now too soon and hasty.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Yes, but thus far the Others have not been clearly placed into any of these categories, making judging them now too soon and hasty.

 

Trying to put the world into eternal dark and winter, together with raising the dead and sending them against the living, is about as good a moral signpost as you're ever going to get.

 

The Others are Evil. The only remaining question is what sort of Evil they are.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Literally the only time necromancy against humans has ever been portrayed in a *good* light is Ed Wood's infamous Plan Nine From Outer Space - where you find space aliens trying to scare humans into stopping work on a dangerous weapon. It's also considered the worst film ever made.