Rant and Rave Without Repercussion: Season 5 Continued (Book Spoilers)

[Richard Writhen]

Its not perfect but it will resolve itself. Everything happens for reason...

[Primalsplit]

If you want to see a pattern, you should read some of the reviews for their novels on Amazon.  While reviews for their books are generally good, reading the ones that aren't is pretty interesting.  A lot of the same complaints crop up.  Characters are boring or one-dimensional, writing is clumsy, plots ultimately go nowhere, there's no depth or heart to what's written, and some telling accusations of a misogynist main character in D.B. Weiss book and charges of excessive profanity and graphic sex and violence from Benioff.  

What's creepier to me, though, is that last one had someone complaining about the graphic aspect of the novel, only to be met with a comment about how the book is historical fiction and the real incident the book was based on was much worse and stuff.  I felt like I was just reading another GoT comment thread because it was the exact same language.  It was a little unnerving, to be honest.

Ah I actually forget about their novels. It's interesting actually. If they think they can write a novel, why work so much on identity theft adaptations? I mean it is somewhat clear they don't do adaptations out of loving the source material (glazing look). Do they know they are bad writers internally. If so, then why do they do so many inventions in an adaptation. Me confused  :frown5:

 

 

 

Just glimpsed into the "Cultural Revolution" thread and want to throw up. But it really shouldn't be surprising. I should expect that people who are so superficial that they can deny the existance of glaring plot holes because of pretty pictures and good acting are also unable to understand that the gripe people have with raping a major character for shock value is not because of the depiction of rape, but both because of the insanely contrived writing to make it happen and more importantly because of their complete lack of understanding what it does to a person.

 

They can't reasonably plug Sansa back into her own storyline without showing the enormous emotional trauma she got, but they likely will because they don't care and they will defend their decision like they always have: "Sansa is a player, an empowered woman." So she will shrug it off and pretend it never happened. This is unrealistic! This is bullshit! This is exactly what they tell us they are going to do!

 

I can't stand people defending that. I can't stand people saying "You would have liked it if George wrote it". No, I wouldn't have liked it if he wrote like D&D. But yes, I would have accepted it if George wrote it in his usual sensitive manner. Yes, there is rape portrayed in the books and yes, we hear of quite a lot of it (it's a war after all), more than they depict in the show (even though we rarely read one live as far as I can recall). But he never let us forget the victims, he always uses it to make a point and not to shock the audience. George R. R. Martin is far too good an author to rely on pure shock value. And he is far too good an author to basically abort the storyline of one of his female characters. He tries to reach the heart of people, to make us care for his characters.

 

And most of all I can't stand people claiming it was a good choice to have Sansa in Winterfell, saying that her becoming a clever player of the Game of Thrones in the Vale would have been boring. THEY HAVE NAMED THE SHOW GAME OF THRONES. And Sansa's storyline is that of the rise of a naive little bird to a mighty bird of prey in said Game of Thrones, even overshadowing the mastermind Littlefinger in the process. With the right directing, it would have been extremely badass! That's why they failed. And that's why people have the right to be upset with it!

The worst part of it is, when Sansa eventually shrugs it off like it was nothing; show apologists will say "See? You said it would be unrealistic for her to shrug it off, but she did. Clearly D&D know better than you."

[Tolsimir]

It's funny that people are defending the use of rape with: ''It's realistic, that's how those times were!''

 

And then when some people point out how unrealistic it is for 20 men to sneak in a camp with thousands of soldiers and burning everything, they say:

 

''You just need some imagination.''

 

:dunno: 

[Shuvuuia]

I just don't understand this "it's realism/this is how it was in our world" argument when Tyrion and Co easily escape the SoH offscreen, the Wall has a giant sickle to kill climbers, Jaime fights with one hand and, as that post on tumblr said, every woman has cleanly shaved armpits and legs. But somehow realism card is brought only when it concerns violence against women/gay men.

 

yes,the books also has similar non-realistic things, but GRRM and most of fans (I hope) don't hide behind "this is how it was back then" to that extent

[Primalsplit]

Seeing some of the marital rape defenders, one would think no one had any idea of a difference between consent and forced sex back in those days.

 

Ramsay (looking betrayed and confused): I did not rape her. That's not true. That's bullshit! I did not rape her! I did naaaght.

[protar]

It's funny that people are defending the use of rape with: ''It's realistic, that's how those times were!''

 

And then when some people point out how unrealistic it is for 20 men to sneak in a camp with thousands of soldiers and burning everything, they say:

 

''You just need some imagination.''

 

:dunno: 

 

This attitude really bugs me. Like Westeros is a real historical setting that needs to be documented accurately. It's not real, everything in a fictional setting is there because the author wants it to be there. Martin writes about a sexually violent and misogynistic society because he has something to say about how women live within a patriarchy. Some subplots like the Queenmaking and the Kingsmoot are literally about women fighting the patriarchy head on. D+D strip the story of this exploration but leave the misogyny and abuse. So what is the narrative purpose of it? It's just for shock. All in the name of realism of course. The abuse towards women is constantly claimed to just be reflecting the times, even though all the women have anachronistic Brazilian waxes.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

It's funny that people are defending the use of rape with: ''It's realistic, that's how those times were!''

 

And then when some people point out how unrealistic it is for 20 men to sneak in a camp with thousands of soldiers and burning everything, they say:

 

''You just need some imagination.''

 

:dunno: 

 

And the irony of this is every time I read one of these vague justifications that usually are thinly veiled attacks I can't help but think of some sleazeball saying,'Shhh, shhh.  Just go with it, baby.  You know you like it."

[Chebyshov]

This attitude really bugs me. Like Westeros is a real historical setting that needs to be documented accurately. It's not real, everything in a fictional setting is there because the author wants it to be there. Martin writes about a sexually violent and misogynistic society because he has something to say about how women live within a patriarchy. Some subplots like the Queenmaking and the Kingsmoot are literally about women fighting the patriarchy head on. D+D strip the story of this exploration but leave the misogyny and abuse. So what is the narrative purpose of it? It's just for shock. All in the name of realism of course. The abuse towards women is constantly claimed to just be reflecting the times, even though all the women have anachronistic Brazilian waxes.

 

This is the same exact thing with racism. The way Martin wrote the Westerosi view of Dorne and Essos is done specifically to reflect the way in which these racial assumptions influence the actions and relegate non-Westerosi (I'm excluding Dorne from that category) from power. And it's supposed to be reflective of the attitudes of Western Europeans in our history, which is disturbingly not dissimilar to racial tensions today. I do think Martin could do better in this department sometimes, but overall it seems like his intent is to both highlight and push on these attitudes and stereotypes. We can easily see that in the case of the Dornish (let's talk about Arys's "they're like this because of the peppers" thought). There's no part of me that thinks Martin wrote Aerys saying how Elia's kids "smell Dornish" simply for fun world-building.

 

But then D&D just kept the racist elements without actually challenging anything. Dany crowdsurfs on a sea of brown people. Jaime and Bronn have a wackado orientalist adventure.

[Red Typer of Dorne]

Biggest rant is the fight choreography in dorne, but then it did lead to this  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsioCjw6130&app=desktop(worth watching it's brilliant

[Bobby b's bobby]

Biggest rant is the fight choreography in dorne, but then it did lead to this  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsioCjw6130&app=desktop(worth watching it's brilliant

Do you think some of the extras or cameramen were looking at that being filmed thinking wtf show they were in.

[TepidHands]

Even as recently as last season, the fight after the "every chicken in the room" conversation and BrienneHoundBowl was well choreographed, absolutely realistic and visceral. That crap in Dorne? Like something out of a Don Knotts movie or Scooby Doo.

[Red Typer of Dorne]

Do you think some of the extras or cameramen were looking at that being filmed thinking wtf show they were in.

I would have thought the editing suit would have had fun, in a way I would have preferred the Benny Hill version to have been the one in the show.

[Le Cygne]

But then D&D just kept the racist elements without actually challenging anything. Dany crowdsurfs on a sea of brown people. Jaime and Bronn have a wackado orientalist adventure.

 

That was a good article at the link above, this line is telling: "Nothing in Dorne exists except that which services Larry and Bronn’s story."

 

It's a road movie, Jaime and Bronn are like Hope and Crosby in Road to Morocco. Which was a spoof of a genre of movie, not meant to be taken straight.

 

But Game of Thrones takes everything straight, they don't tell a story, they just present the way it was (a very slanted view of how it was).

 

This article contrasts GoT to Deadwood, a show that showed you the lives of prostitutes, separate from servicing the plots of others, instead of just their boobs and vaginas.

 

That's what's missing from GoT, the "blistering and uncomfortable critiques of the culture that enabled and encouraged those acts, and it offered layered portraits of women and ethnic and racial minorities who survived and resisted that dismal age."

 

It's also just lazy storytelling. Like with Theon's story, they didn't include a moment of reflection, other than watching Fansa get raped (after an absurd plot marched her blindly to bow, bend over, and be broken, the only thing they kept out of the story they "loved").

 

Where was Theon's moment in the godswood? And for that matter, why was the crypt scene all about LF and rape, not about Lyanna and Knight of the Laughing Tree? Couldn't the elderly Northern servant who knew Lyanna have told that story?

 

And where were any thoughts of Lady? The things that matter to Sansa. But she wasn't Sansa, that's the problem. She wasn't even Fansa. She was Jeynsa, because even Jeyne had a better story, she was forced to be there, and she didn't yell at Theon, she tried to get to know him.

 

They just hit action points, and usually they don't make sense, and are contradictory, from scene to scene. This is just bad writing. It seems like they just thoughtlessly toss these scripts out. If they need help, hire more writers, experienced ones, who will push back, not interns.

[OldGimletEye]

 

They just hit action points, and usually they don't make sense, and are contradictory, from scene to scene. This is just bad writing. It seems like they just thoughtlessly toss these scripts out. If they need help, hire more writers, experienced ones, who will push back, not interns.

And experienced writers that have actually read the books. But, D & D, seem like the type of guys who just want everyone to nod their heads and go, "hmm hmm, that's just a great idea you have there."

[LongRider]

~~~~snip~~~~

 

And where were any thoughts of Lady? The things that matter to Sansa. But she wasn't Sansa, that's the problem. She wasn't even Fansa. She was Jeynsa, because even Jeyne had a better story, she was forced to be there, and she didn't yell at Theon, she tried to get to know him.

 

They just hit action points, and usually they don't make sense, and are contradictory, from scene to scene. This is just bad writing. It seems like they just thoughtlessly toss these scripts out. If they need help, hire more writers, experienced ones, who will push back, not interns.

 

Your comment about Lady is spot on.  It would be good storytelling for Sansa to visit the litchyard to see Lady's grave, Jory's grave and others too perhaps.  In other words, for Sansa to show some interest in being in WF again, being home.  Nope, nothing. 

[Le Cygne]

And experienced writers that have actually read the books. But, D & D, seem like the type of guys who just want everyone to nod their heads and go, "hmm hmm, that's just a great idea you have there."

 

Yes men (and I do mean men). Other showrunners bring in good writers to round out what they are missing, to add to the writing and to their perspective, and to keep track of things like characterization and continuity. AND THEY LISTEN TO THEM.

 

And this is one of the least faithful adaptations I've ever seen. I've seen classic B movies that were tossed off in a studio assembly line that were more faithful adaptations. This is a current, bestselling book series, they were supposed to stick to the source material.

 

On Outlander, they consulted the author, and she got 90% of what she wanted (some wasn't practical for cost and time and presentation reasons), wouldn't GRRM have loved that (and wouldn't readers have loved that, too). And they say the book lines...

[OldGimletEye]

 

Your comment about Lady is spot on.  It would be good storytelling for Sansa to visit the litchyard to see Lady's grave, Jory's grave and others too perhaps.  In other words, for Sansa to show some interest in being in WF again, being home.  Nope, nothing. 

Yes, that was an excellent observation by Le Cygne.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

It's funny that people are defending the use of rape with: ''It's realistic, that's how those times were!''

 

And then when some people point out how unrealistic it is for 20 men to sneak in a camp with thousands of soldiers and burning everything, they say:

 

''You just need some imagination.''

 

:dunno: 

Ha! Am seeing that a lot.

Actually saw this sentence last night:

not exact quote "You are looking at things through a narrow feminist prism and are, well, too obsessed with rape"

And I thought to myself,

That sentence is everything that's wrong with the world.

 

 

 

It's also just lazy storytelling. Like with Theon's story, they didn't include a moment of reflection, other than watching Fansa get raped (after an absurd plot marched her blindly to bow, bend over, and be broken, the only thing they kept out of the story they "loved").

 

Where was Theon's moment in the godswood? And for that matter, why was the crypt scene all about LF and rape, not about Lyanna and Knight of the Laughing Tree? Couldn't the elderly Northern servant who knew Lyanna have told that story?

 

And where were any thoughts of Lady? The things that matter to Sansa. But she wasn't Sansa, that's the problem. She wasn't even Fansa. She was Jeynsa, because even Jeyne had a better story, she was forced to be there, and she didn't yell at Theon, she tried to get to know him.

 

They just hit action points, and usually they don't make sense, and are contradictory, from scene to scene. This is just bad writing. It seems like they just thoughtlessly toss these scripts out. If they need help, hire more writers, experienced ones, who will push back, not interns.

EXACTLY

[Le Cygne]

Your comment about Lady is spot on.  It would be good storytelling for Sansa to visit the litchyard to see Lady's grave, Jory's grave and others too perhaps.  In other words, for Sansa to show some interest in being in WF again, being home.  Nope, nothing.

 
Well, it's not like she doesn't think about her often in the books or anything. And her thoughts of Lady almost always include thoughts of Sandor, because there's a HUGE connection there. She thinks of Lady, and there he is. Again and again and again. They even included the damn line, get her a dog, she'll be happier. But that would get in the way of her playing a different character...

 

You know, it would have been helpful if they had just given them all different names and said "inspired by" ASOIAF, just go all out from the start, why even bother to pretend these are the same characters or stories.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

 

Your comment about Lady is spot on.  It would be good storytelling for Sansa to visit the litchyard to see Lady's grave, Jory's grave and others too perhaps.  In other words, for Sansa to show some interest in being in WF again, being home.  Nope, nothing. 

Right? I was expecting some walking through hallways and touching things, remembering things. Going to godswood. She made Winterfell out of snow from memory for crying out loud...why was there no sign she even cared where she was apart from telling Myranda "this is my home"?