How could the Ironborn have ever held the Riverlands?

[Floki of the Ironborn]

It makes sense that the Stormlords could do it, albeit struggle to keep those lands in line, and it makes sense that the Hoares could have driven them out with the Riverlords' help, but when House Hoare lets their true colours be known, how could they hold onto the Riverlands for as long as they did? The Ironborn have the smallest population of anyone, except maybe the Dornish, and they're also unused to land battle. And they were considered tyrants of the worst order. Yet the Hoares are able to freely build Harrenhal over decades and decades seemingly without the threat of guerrillas, uprisings, or any kind of resistance from a region known for its fertility, and their fierce fighters (Mallisters, Blackwoods, Tullys, Brackens, etc)

Without the Riverlords' support, how did they subdue such a large population divided up by so many natural defences?

[James Steller]

The Riverlands have always been conquered, overrun, defeated by somebody at some point. Sure they've had their victories under Kermit, Edmure, Jason Mallister, the Blackfish, etc, but as far as regions go, they're the most vulnerable. And it's not like the Ironborn are amphibians who need to stay close to the water. They could certainly hold their own in a fight or else they would have been wiped out a long time ago.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Because the Ironborn are the most overhyped, nonsensical plot device in the books, they are made primitive and isolated by Martin giving them weaker military technology than everyone else and a backwards "we do not sow" culture. We see twice in recent history (KWB and BWB) that native people, particularly in forested areas, can cause havoc to an invading army. This is of course ignoring the lords themselves, their castles (which the Ironborn are no good at taking), their knight (which the Ironborn can't defeat in a pitched battle), their infantrymen (which use superior tactics to the Ironborn), their wealth, and potentially their allies in other regions. All ignoring the fact that the Gardeners, Arryns, Lannisters, and Starks all share a border with the Riverlands and might not appreciate Ironmen as neighbours.

 

I'm sorry this isn't exactly a helpful answer, but thinking too much about what the Ironborn achieve can make me quite angry, they have almost no positive qualities for great conquerors and warlords, yet they manage to outdo almost everyone at some point. When it comes to the question "how did Ironborn achieve X?" the answer is usually best stated as "the author wanted it to happen", any other explanation is too contrived and illogical.

[R+L=Hot Pie]

Magic

[GHOSTSTARK]

the Riverlands didnt have that one King/Lord that had enough back bone and enough power to stand up against the Hoares until the Dragons arrived.

[Blackfish Tully]

Because the Ironborn are the most overhyped, nonsensical plot device in the books, they are made primitive and isolated by Martin giving them weaker military technology than everyone else and a backwards "we do not sow" culture. We see twice in recent history (KWB and BWB) that native people, particularly in forested areas, can cause havoc to an invading army. This is of course ignoring the lords themselves, their castles (which the Ironborn are no good at taking), their knight (which the Ironborn can't defeat in a pitched battle), their infantrymen (which use superior tactics to the Ironborn), their wealth, and potentially their allies in other regions. All ignoring the fact that the Gardeners, Arryns, Lannisters, and Starks all share a border with the Riverlands and might not appreciate Ironmen as neighbours.

 

I'm sorry this isn't exactly a helpful answer, but thinking too much about what the Ironborn achieve can make me quite angry, they have almost no positive qualities for great conquerors and warlords, yet they manage to outdo almost everyone at some point. When it comes to the question "how did Ironborn achieve X?" the answer is usually best stated as "the author wanted it to happen", any other explanation is too contrived and illogical.

 

It's not like the Iron Born attacked a united Riverlands . See the information below and it's not hard to believe they were able to conquer the Riverlands. 

"Harwyn planned the invasion of the riverlands, which were weakly held by the Storm King Arrec Durrandon. The ironborn landed one hundred longships south of Seagard and then carried the ships to the Blue Fork. Samwell Rivers' small host was shattered by Harwyn's charge at the Tumblestone. Harwyn then defeated the army of Lady Agnes Blackwood, who was betrayed by Lord Lothar Bracken. Harwyn was impressed with Agnes and offered her to become his salt wife, but the king killed her when she refused.^[2]

The Storm King Arrec then met Harwyn in a battle at Fairmarket. Aided by many river lords, including Lothar Bracken, Theo Charlton, and Lords Goodbrook, Page, and Vypren, the Hoares crushed the stormlanders and Arrec's rule over the riverlands collapsed. The rivermen had hoped to regain their independence and celebrated at first, but Harwyn retained control for himself. Lord Bracken had desired to be river king; he rose in rebellion six months later, which resulted in him starving to death in a crow cage"

[Raving Stark the Mad]

_{Castles.  You dont' need Harrenhall, you just take the ones that are available.}

 

_{The low population of the Iron Isles is probably offset by the fact that a larger percentage of their population are warriors/soldiers, and they're more desperate, since the Iron Islands don't have much in the way of any other sort of economy.  Reaving is the one job that is always hiring.} 

[The Mountain That Flies]

I'm a bit of novice when it comes to medieval boating, but are there Ironborn ships that could navigate the rivers consistently? Logically if you have access to that kind of transportation network you can move troops quickly and decisively, and the river lords seem to always suffer from infighting. A unified resistance might not ever get the chance to take off.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

 

It's not like the Iron Born attacked a united Riverlands . See the information below and it's not hard to believe they were able to conquer the Riverlands. 

"Harwyn planned the invasion of the riverlands, which were weakly held by the Storm King Arrec Durrandon. The ironborn landed one hundred longships south of Seagard and then carried the ships to the Blue Fork. Samwell Rivers' small host was shattered by Harwyn's charge at the Tumblestone. Harwyn then defeated the army of Lady Agnes Blackwood, who was betrayed by Lord Lothar Bracken. Harwyn was impressed with Agnes and offered her to become his salt wife, but the king killed her when she refused.^[2]

The Storm King Arrec then met Harwyn in a battle at Fairmarket. Aided by many river lords, including Lothar Bracken, Theo Charlton, and Lords Goodbrook, Page, and Vypren, the Hoares crushed the stormlanders and Arrec's rule over the riverlands collapsed. The rivermen had hoped to regain their independence and celebrated at first, but Harwyn retained control for himself. Lord Bracken had desired to be river king; he rose in rebellion six months later, which resulted in him starving to death in a crow cage"

 

Conquering large regions can take decades, even for people who are versed in siegecraft (the Ironborn aren't), within six months of their arrival the entire Riverlands was against them, disunity at any point is based on the incredibly dubious premise that any of the Rivermen would be stupid enough to view the Ironborn in higher regard than the Stormlords.

 

It still isn't explained exactly how the Ironborn were able to defeat the Durrandon's in a pitched battle despite being generally poor at those and the Stormlanders being excellent (and likely much more experienced at large scale land battles).

 

That betrayal and inactivity allowed the success is part of a wider problem that every time there has been any success of the Ironborn in the last 400 years it has been due to inactivity, incompetence or infighting, yet we are still supposed to be formidable.

 

 

I'm a bit of novice when it comes to medieval boating, but are there Ironborn ships that could navigate the rivers consistently? Logically if you have access to that kind of transportation network you can move troops quickly and decisively, and the river lords seem to always suffer from infighting. A unified resistance might not ever get the chance to take off.

 

 

The problem with the whole idea is that IRL transporting ships overland was a huge logistical feat, even for a small distance, they would have had to carry 100 ships 40-50 miles at the very least. Not necessarily impossible but still a fairly huge stretch, but even if it is done it doesn't allow the Ironborn to control any land or really threaten any major towns/castles. All their opposition had to do is build a few booms to limit their movement and trap them.

 

The Ironborn had 5,000 men or less, their biggest ally was gone within six months, Westeros is incredibly decentralised, the fate of Durrandon wouldn't have prevented any of the Riverlords, peasants or landed knights from organising an effective resistance.

[Fire Eater]

The Ironborn rule was unstable since the beginning, but the riverlords are notorious for being a divisive group, so it would be easier to play divide and conquer, and even the riverlords' uprising against the Storm Kings wasn't unified. The uprisings were by no more than a a lord or a few at a time until the time of Aegon's Conquest. The Ironborn would have numbers on any small group of riverlords especially if they got other riverlords to fight with them. 

[Lord Wraith]

Magic

 

A Valyrian Sorceror did it.

[The Commentator]

It makes sense that the Stormlords could do it, albeit struggle to keep those lands in line, and it makes sense that the Hoares could have driven them out with the Riverlords' help, but when House Hoare lets their true colours be known, how could they hold onto the Riverlands for as long as they did? The Ironborn have the smallest population of anyone, except maybe the Dornish, and they're also unused to land battle. And they were considered tyrants of the worst order. Yet the Hoares are able to freely build Harrenhal over decades and decades seemingly without the threat of guerrillas, uprisings, or any kind of resistance from a region known for its fertility, and their fierce fighters (Mallisters, Blackwoods, Tullys, Brackens, etc)

Without the Riverlords' support, how did they subdue such a large population divided up by so many natural defences?

 

The Ironborn are a hard people, born and raised in a harsh culture.  They are tough and ferocious.  Brutality and violence is their way of life.  They do not sow, they steal and they take.  That was their way of life.  The Riverlands were no match for the Ironborn.  

 

It took the Targaryens to bring them to take down Black Harren and bring the Ironborn to heel.  Look what happened as soon as the Targaryens were gone.  It didn't take long for Balon to rebel.  Robert was fortunate that they were able to stop the Greyjoys.  In recent events, the Ironborn have been up to mischief and started their mission of conquests on the west side of the continent.  None have been able to stop them.  I do not foresee the Tyrells nor the Lannisters in being able to stop Euron's advance.  It will take the return of the Targaryens to bring the krakens to heel once again.

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
The Ironborn are a hard people, born and raised in a harsh culture.  They are tough and ferocious.  Brutality and violence is their way of life.  They do not sow, they steal and they take.  That was their way of life.  The Riverlands were no match for the Ironborn.  
 
It took the Targaryens to bring them to take down Black Harren and bring the Ironborn to heel.  Look what happened as soon as the Targaryens were gone.  It didn't take long for Balon to rebel.  Robert was fortunate that they were able to stop the Greyjoys.  In recent events, the Ironborn have been up to mischief and started their mission of conquests on the west side of the continent.  None have been able to stop them.  I do not foresee the Tyrells nor the Lannisters in being able to stop Euron's advance.  It will take the return of the Targaryens to bring the krakens to heel once again.

See that sound good but in reality they're the weakest of the lot being crap on land wwhilr at sea were they are good because nobody else thought to have a large fleet bar the reach for some reason.

[The Commentator]

See that sound good but in reality they're the weakest of the lot being crap on land wwhilr at sea were they are good because nobody else thought to have a large fleet bar the reach for some reason.

 

Harren the Black and his Ironborn dominated the Riverlands the entire time it took to build Harrenhal.  The Ironborn have been unstoppable so far in their western advance. 

[Minstral]

The Ironmen at the time of Balon always seemed like they were a shadow of their former selves. Many of the Ironmen are effective raiders, but they also seem to be dreamers when they were once conquerors. To Balon's credit, he does create the Iron Fleet and keeps hi goals in line, but his strategies are that of a raider who fought primarily on the Stepstones . He plans out his campaign in the North with a raider mindset. Take the vulnerable places that he knows are lightly defended (strategic), pillage, and hope to be confirmed as the sovereign by the Northmens enemies. During this time the Ironmen's power in the North did not extend beyond the castles they controlled or the Stony Shore that they did hold.

 

In all likelihood, the Ironmen probably were not the poor and impoverished people they are by the time of Balon's rule. They likely had a better economy and fighting force that has experience beyond raiding and taking ships (their situation would demand it, considering that they would be tangling with other kingdoms on a more regular basis).

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The Ironborn of Black Harren's time were Riverlanders. His father Halleck visited the Iron Islands thrice in his lifetime and not once more. That's probably true for most "Ironborn" of the time.

Comparing the armies of their time to the modern vultures and raiders does them a disservice.

[A Bastard Snow]

What's more surprising is how the IB were allowed to keep a massive fleet and also to build more ships less then a decade after they rebelled.

Massive amount of ships lost in Fair Isle.Even larger fleet less then 10 years later

Meanwhile at White Harbor with 2 years time massive supply of timber a centralized population of over 100K mountains of silver we have...50 ships being built?

The IB must have House Builder led by Lord Bob Builder to manage such a feat

[Bright Blue Eyes]

"Allowed" isn't exactly the right word. "Required to" would fit better, as part of the feudal chain and everything. Upper limits on shipbuilding after peace treaties are more a thing of nation states anyway.

 

Furthermore, ships don't last long. 10-15 years in good condition with the given technology. Most of the original Iron Fleet would have been replaced anyway by now.

[Blackfish Tully]

"Allowed" isn't exactly the right word. "Required to" would fit better, as part of the feudal chain and everything. Upper limits on shipbuilding after peace treaties are more a thing of nation states anyway.

 

Furthermore, ships don't last long. 10-15 years in good condition with the given technology. Most of the original Iron Fleet would have been replaced anyway by now.

 

Also we do not know how many ships were destroyed in the Battle of Fair Isle . Just because the Iron Fleet was defeated does not mean all their ships were destroyed . If half of them escaped the battle then the fact that the Iron fleet is built up over 10 years is not hard to believe. 

[Boarsbane]

See that sound good but in reality they're the weakest of the lot being crap on land wwhilr at sea were they are good because nobody else thought to have a large fleet bar the reach for some reason.

They weren't the weakest at the time, not only were they able to conquer and hold the Riverlands for a time but Harwyn's heirs were expanding out of the Riverlands. It's been over 300 years so the current Ironborn should not be looked at as the same as the Ironborn under the Hoares.