A+J=T v.6

[Lord Varys]

Rhaenys,

 

well, we don't know what exactly was problematic for Tywin about 'the breast comment' - or whether it was actually the breast comment or something Aerys did later on that evening and which was never discussed publicly - since these two guys have a very complicated relationship especially where Joanna is concerned. Tywin may just have found it improper from Aerys to remind everyone that he had once had an affair with Joanna, and had been actually been quite taken by those breasts.

 

Tywin may have been trying to put an end to what was happening/had happened between Aerys and Joanna, and getting back into that game may simply have been too much for him to bear. He wasn't above taking the king's leavings, but I doubt he looked forward or could live with Joanna continuing her affair with the king. Not with a straight face, and not after he had already become the bottom of Aerys' jokes. He would have become the laughingstock of the West, just as his father had been, if his wife publicly cuckolded him with the king while he served as that king's Hand.

 

Jaime/Cersei stuff:

 

The problem there is that there are no hints in that direction at all in TWoIaF (or anywhere else, really) while there are hints towards Tyrion being Aerys' son. This theory isn't hanging in thin air like some others, it is about a major character and about a major future plot line of the story, and if it was true one would expect George using the opportunity to build up to it like he (seemingly) did there with Tyrion. It would have been easily to keep Joanna constantly at court until after the birth of Cersei and Jaime, say, by skipping the whole banishment stuff and make her return to Casterly Rock only to raise her twins there. Tyrion could have been conceived by Tywin at Casterly Rock with Aerys and Joanna not having seen each other for years by the time of her death. That would have put matters to rest.

 

Not to mention that Aerys and Rhaella clearly had trouble conceiving. Yes, Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys were fine, but the others all weren't, and it would really be strange if Aerys had fathered two such perfect looking Lannister specimens.

[MotherMerciless]

I didn't remeber that part where they seldom spent any time together. I guess that even if they only had sex ten times a year, it could still be hard for them to concieve.

Still, two years is quite a bit (though still normal). And then the second pregnancy took waay longer, not so normal.

Regarding fertility running in a family, speaking from experience,I'm not quite sure that's a thing. Maybe in the books it is, and that's that.

[kimim]

Turning Tyrion Targ would destroy the Lannister family dynamic. It would waste the hints that he is the one true Lannister, the true heir of Tywin, who torments his son as he can't accept a dwarf representing all that. It would offer a couple very easy and (sorry) cheap solutions:

 

Solution to Tyrion killing his father: lol he wasn't a patricide after all! He was just killing a nasty villain who tormented him.

Solution to Tyrion's self hate, need to be loved, admired and accepted: Put him on a dragon!

 

i really hope he stays a Lannister. 

[MotherMerciless]

Lord Varys,

Perhaps the fact that there was no inbreeding involved helped produce healthier offspring. The fact that the Lannister traits won the genetic war might be just that, genetics. Not all Targs look like Targs.

As to there being no clues about the twins being Targs, since I like to keep my options open when it comes to C+J, I think there are some, less strong than those for T, but I still see them, like Aerys' nameday gift for the twins, Cersei's paranoia, her being a psycopath, her burning the tower, Jaime's aunt telling him he's not Tywin's son, but that Tyrion is (so sorry if I remember that wrong, blame it on my pregnancy brain), Jaime's weirwood dream also seemed to have something about Jaime not knowing his father (one can interpret this in many different ways I know).

[MotherMerciless]

Kikim, I totally agree with you. I think (and I'm speaking for myself here) Tyrion being a Targ makes the story too 'pretty'. Tywin hating his only true son sounds way more interesting and tragic. I also hope he stays a Lannister.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Turning Tyrion Targ would destroy the Lannister family dynamic. It would waste the hints that he is the one true Lannister, the true heir of Tywin, who torments his son as he can't accept a dwarf representing all that. It would offer a couple very easy and (sorry) cheap solutions:

 

Solution to Tyrion killing his father: lol he wasn't a patricide after all! He was just killing a nasty villain who tormented him.

Solution to Tyrion's self hate, need to be loved, admired and accepted: Put him on a dragon!

 

i really hope he stays a Lannister. 

I get that you like the way that Tyrion and Tywin have been presented to this point and any revision to this dynamic would hurt the story in your view. But what I don't get is why that personal preference is stronger than all the clues in favor of AJT. Not liking a theory is different than not believing it to be true. I am sure GRRM will have some plot developments I don't like. But I make predictions based on my best understanding of the clues. Given that many people think that this development would give Tyrion more room to grow as a character -- I think you should consider the possibility a little more seriously.

[Lord Varys]

MM,

 

well, we know that there are some Targaryens that resemble the non-Targaryen parent, but we also know that the Valyrian traits are rather strong, and usually come through if you have multiple children. Yet Cersei and Jaime's children are look like prototypical Lannisters, too, yet if all three were half-Targaryens on both their parents' side one would expect that at least one of them had Valyrian hair or eyes. Yet none does.

 

Cersei does indeed show some superficial similarities with Aerys' behavior. But I think this is only due to the fact that paranoia usually looks very much alike, especially if you are in power. From what we have learned about Aerys in TWoIaF Cersei is very different from him. Most importantly, she is actually crueler and more vindictive than Aerys - who actually was a pretty nice and amiable fellow when didn't have any of his lapses - it was Duskendale that fundamentally changed and let him become cruel. But Cersei was never a nice or likable character.

 

As to Tywin-Tyrion:

 

I've said this many times. Tywin is dead. There is no character or relationship development there. The important character is Tyrion, not Tywin, or Tyrion's relationship to his father. This series is far from concluded, and his story is going to continue in a new territory in any case. We have to ask ourselves what George might intend to do with the character. If he becomes a dragonrider then making a Targaryen bastard in the process may be the right thing to do, especially if he is destined to play an even bigger role. Not to mention that the 'I'm a dragon expert' and 'I know political stuff about people in a far away land' should be enough to get Tyrion in the good graces of Dany or her allies. We see how Quentyn fared at her court, and he came with a marriage contract and the offer of an alliance. Tyrion will come as a real beggar and a convicted felon, guilty of kingslaying and kinslaying. I'd not want somebody in my councils that betrayed his own king and family, and murdered his own father in the process. Do you? George has to tread carefully there to make Tyrion's future story convincing.

 

We also usually don't say 'Jon Snow can't be Rhaegar's son by Lyanna since that would destroy his relationship to Ned' yet it is exactly the same scenario. The only difference is that Ned Stark is dead for a much longer time, and AGoT out for nearly twenty years. People had time to come to terms with that, but if I were invested in the Ned-Jon relationship and stumbling on the first clues about Jon's true parentage I might also think that this would be a bad idea...

[Doorlocks]

Jaime/Cersei stuff:

 

The problem there is that there are no hints in that direction at all in TWoIaF (or anywhere else, really) while there are hints towards Tyrion being Aerys' son. This theory isn't hanging in thin air like some others, it is about a major character and about a major future plot line of the story, and if it was true one would expect George using the opportunity to build up to it like he (seemingly) did there with Tyrion. It would have been easily to keep Joanna constantly at court until after the birth of Cersei and Jaime, say, by skipping the whole banishment stuff and make her return to Casterly Rock only to raise her twins there. Tyrion could have been conceived by Tywin at Casterly Rock with Aerys and Joanna not having seen each other for years by the time of her death. That would have put matters to rest.

 

Not to mention that Aerys and Rhaella clearly had trouble conceiving. Yes, Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys were fine, but the others all weren't, and it would really be strange if Aerys had fathered two such perfect looking Lannister specimens.

 

I won't go too in depth, as this isn't the thread for it, but there are some equally strong hints for Cersei and Jaime being Aerys' as well.  Of the children we know are Aerys' (Rhaegar, Viserys, and Danerys), Cersei and Jaime are more like them in beauty than Tyrion.  Besides adding an interesting new dynamic to their latter day characterization and deeds (their incest, Cersei's madness, Jaime's murder of Aerys, Cersei's cuckoldry of Robert, etc.), their birth came nearer to the height of Joanna and Aerys' affair and the World book includes some very telling behavior from Aerys right after their birth.

 

The idea that Aerys completely cuckolded Tywin (once when Joanna was willing; once when not), similar to Robert Baratheon and perhaps Aegon Targaryen (with his favorite wife), would be one final karmic blow to the man whose primary concern was his legacy.  And I don't think Aerys personally had fertility problems, because he got Rhaella pregnant nearly a dozen times.  It was a problem with Rhaella carrying to term (or someone *cough*Pycelle*cough* messing with the pregnancies).

 

If Cersei and Jaime are  also Aerys', it makes doubly clear that all the things that connect Tyrion to Dany and Jon (all their narrative parallels, two of them definitely and all three potentially conceived by rape, dragon dreams, death of mother in childbirth, etc.) are important to unifying those three.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Aerys first insults her in front of everyone (asking if her breasts had sagged after breastfeeding the twins), and THEN fathers her child? This makes me think this is either not true, or he had to rape her.

On the other hand, when the twins are born he offers them their weight in gold, and orders Tywin to bring them to Kings Landing as soon as they are old enough to travel.

Just because it is not stated that Aerys did not visit Joanna in time to father Cersei and Jaime, doesn't mean he didn't.

Everytime a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin, and Cersei and Jaime fit that saying pretty well.

 

For me there is no question that any sex between Aerys and Joanna that led Tyrion's conception was rape. It just makes more sense than the idea that Joanna was sneaking behind Tywin's back to get it on with Mr. Foot-long fingernails

[purple-eyes]

For me there is no question that any sex between Aerys and Joanna that led Tyrion's conception was rape. It just makes more sense than the idea that Joanna was sneaking behind Tywin's back to get it on with Mr. Foot-long fingernails

I believe Joanna was raped if she had tyrion with mad king.
But why did not she have some moon tea to drop it?
Or she drank but it did not work so tyrion was a dwarf?

[Mithras]

Joanna did not look like a fool who would risk giving birth to a Targaryen looking baby unless she already had Targaryen ancestry through the Plumms. And if she already had Targaryen ancestry through the Plumms, AJT becomes redundant.

 

Nothing suggests in the text that moon tea might fail. In fact, if Joanna took moon tea, she must have taken it from Maggy.

 

“This dream concerned a witch woman I visited as a child.”

“A woods witch? Most are harmless creatures. They know a little herb-craft and some midwifery, but elsewise . . .”

“She was more than that. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for charms and potions. She was mother to a petty lord, a wealthy merchant upjumped by my grandsire. This lord’s father had found her whilst trading in the east. Some say she cast a spell on him, though more like the only charm she needed was the one between her thighs. She was not always hideous, or so they said. I don’t recall the woman’s name. Something long and eastern and outlandish. The smallfolk used to call her Maggy.”

 

Claiming that Maggy did a sloppy job in aborting this unwanted child is ridiculous.

[Mithras]

As to Tywin-Tyrion:

 

I've said this many times. Tywin is dead. There is no character or relationship development there. The important character is Tyrion, not Tywin, or Tyrion's relationship to his father. This series is far from concluded, and his story is going to continue in a new territory in any case. We have to ask ourselves what George might intend to do with the character. If he becomes a dragonrider then making a Targaryen bastard in the process may be the right thing to do, especially if he is destined to play an even bigger role. Not to mention that the 'I'm a dragon expert' and 'I know political stuff about people in a far away land' should be enough to get Tyrion in the good graces of Dany or her allies. We see how Quentyn fared at her court, and he came with a marriage contract and the offer of an alliance. Tyrion will come as a real beggar and a convicted felon, guilty of kingslaying and kinslaying. I'd not want somebody in my councils that betrayed his own king and family, and murdered his own father in the process. Do you? George has to tread carefully there to make Tyrion's future story convincing.

 

We also usually don't say 'Jon Snow can't be Rhaegar's son by Lyanna since that would destroy his relationship to Ned' yet it is exactly the same scenario. The only difference is that Ned Stark is dead for a much longer time, and AGoT out for nearly twenty years. People had time to come to terms with that, but if I were invested in the Ned-Jon relationship and stumbling on the first clues about Jon's true parentage I might also think that this would be a bad idea...

 

:bs:

 

When Dany meets Tyrion, he will have restored some order in Meereen. That is clear from the fact that Tyrion seems stuck in the SB where his skills are required and George confirmed that Tyrion will not meet Dany for a long time. Not only this but Tyrion will probably be a dragonrider before meeting Dany. After all, Dany is away and the two dragons are up in the air, free for grabbing. That means Dany will not have any vote in the riders of Viserion and Rhaegal.

 

Therefore, there is no need to make Tyrion half-brother to Dany. Plus, it does not matter. Tyrion killed Tywin knowing/believing that he was his father. Even if his father was actually someone else, it makes no difference. Nothing takes away from his patricide and kinslaying.

 

Stop comparing AJT with RLJ. Do not even use them in the same sentence. That does more harm than good to your argument, trust me.

[Mithras]

MM,

 

well, we know that there are some Targaryens that resemble the non-Targaryen parent, but we also know that the Valyrian traits are rather strong, and usually come through if you have multiple children. Yet Cersei and Jaime's children are look like prototypical Lannisters, too, yet if all three were half-Targaryens on both their parents' side one would expect that at least one of them had Valyrian hair or eyes. Yet none does.

 

Cersei does indeed show some superficial similarities with Aerys' behavior. But I think this is only due to the fact that paranoia usually looks very much alike, especially if you are in power. From what we have learned about Aerys in TWoIaF Cersei is very different from him. Most importantly, she is actually crueler and more vindictive than Aerys - who actually was a pretty nice and amiable fellow when didn't have any of his lapses - it was Duskendale that fundamentally changed and let him become cruel. But Cersei was never a nice or likable character.

 

Another BS.

 

Cersei had made shameless use of their cousin, both in and out of bed; a little secret she no doubt hoped Lancel would carry to his grave now that Father was here and she no longer had need of him. Would she go so far as to murder him, though? To look at her today, you would never suspect Cersei was capable of such ruthlessness. She was all charm, flirting with Lord Tyrell as they spoke of Joffrey’s wedding feast, complimenting Lord Redwyne on the valor of his twins, softening gruff Lord Rowan with jests and smiles, making pious noises at the High Septon.

[Mithras]

Jaime/Cersei stuff:

 

The problem there is that there are no hints in that direction at all in TWoIaF (or anywhere else, really) while there are hints towards Tyrion being Aerys' son.

 

Double standard.

 

AJ=CJ theory has the same kind of evidences/argumentation with AJT and it is much more compelling than AJT.

[Mithras]

“Not Robert the Second,” Tyrion said. “Aerys the Third.”

 

For example, this can be taken as a much stronger clue in favor of A+J=C+J than anything proposed in the OP for AJT.

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

 

your arguments are really bad when you are pissed.

 

Don't you predict that Victarion will kill Hizdahr and Barristan, and effectively take over Meereen? Why would he tolerate the presence of that dwarf, or allow him to interfere with his politics? How do you think Tyrion can restore 'order' in Meereen when Victarion rules? Why would anyone allow Tyrion to claim a dragon? Why would Tyrion think he can mount a dragon? Why would anyone in Meereen accept the advice of a dwarf who some might remember was supposed to be ripped to pieces by lions in the Daznak's Pit? Why would anyone accept his advice rather than demanding that he continue his true trade - that is, riding a pig?

 

If Tyrion is Dany's half-brother, then Barristan most likely won't put him to death for patricide and regicide without Dany's permission, and while he did some pretty heavy crimes you tend to pardon your brother much more often than just some dude.

 

Jon's and Tyrion's true heritage are mirror images. They are variations of the same theme, and were, if they are true, most likely designed as such. Jon and Tyrion were made friends very deliberately back in AGoT, and this is going to pay off if they are actually uncle and nephew more than if they are just meeting each other again at one point.

 

Your Cersei stuff isn't 'proof' or relevant to this discussion, too. It shows that Cersei can play the role of a nice person and charm people. But that doesn't know she is really is nice, right? Aerys II actually regretted executing all those midwives, his mistress, and their family when he decided completely on his own to make a walk of penance, humble himself before the High Septon, and ask the gods for forgiveness. We'll never see something like that from Cersei, right?

 

There are many characters in this series developing serious mental issues but that doesn't mean they are descended from Aerys (like Alannys Harlaw Greyjoy). Liking to watch the symbol of the men you feel have dominated you all your life burn doesn't mean you are showing Targaryen madness. Cersei becomes paranoid for some very good and objective reasons, yet Aerys II's paranoia was merely part of his actual mental affliction that manifested in various ways. Cersei doesn't have mad fits of the sort Aerys had Harrenhal - she isn't laughing, weeping, raging, etc. within in minutes. She just thinks all are out to get her. And she isn't even wrong.

 

This 'Aerys the Third' is no clue to anything in regards to Jaime and Cersei. It is Tyrion comparing Joffrey to Aerys without actually having any knowledge. I could have made that comparison, too, but that wouldn't make it a clue.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The fact that we can keep discussing this stuff despite the fact that we don't agree on this topic, most of the time, is the reason I keep hanging around here :)

 

:cheers:

 

Honestly, I never read it that way. And I still doubt whether Jon is admitting here that he had dreamt of dragons himself.

 

“What are you reading about?” he asked.

“Dragons,” Tyrion told him.

“What good is that? There are no more dragons,” the boy said with the easy certainty of youth.

“So they say,” Tyrion replied. “Sad, isn’t it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own.”

“You did?” the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

“Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.” Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.”

“No,” Jon Snow said, horrified. “I wouldn’t …”

 

I read this passage as Jon being horrified at the thought of dreaming about causing the deaths of your own relatives - father, sister.. Why would Jon be horrified about having dreamt about a dragon once?

 

“I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—”

 

I don't think this necessarily says that Jon dreams of dragons. I read this as that it was the friend (Tyrion) who had dreamed of dragons, not both Jon and Tyrion.

Though I admit that it can be that I read it this way because English is not my native tongue.. 

 

People can dream about dragons without being Targaryens, but there's dreaming of dragons and dreaming of dragons, if you get what I mean. There's dreaming of the animals themselves like one might dream about a friend, or another animal, and then there's dreaming the way Daeron the Drunken did. Even amongst the Targaryens.. Bloodraven speaks of "from time to time" when discussing that gift amongst the Blackfyre's, and it should logically be the same amongst the Targaryens.

 

So the point is, in what sense does Tyrion dream about dragons? Is it in a prophetic sense? Or isn't it? As far as I can currently recall, Tyrion hasn't dreamt anything prophetic so far.

 

Even when there's a prophetic dream featuring a dragon (see the Winds of Winter Arianne sample chapter), it might not be because of Targaryen blood. (two spoiler tags, because the one spoiler tag hid only 1/4 of the spoiler for some strange reason..)

[spoiler]Though in this case, Teora might actually see what is going to happen, actual dragons fighting, leading to her seeing the future, as Mother Mole apparently is capable of doing Beyond the Wall. In that case, though, Teora wouldn't be dreaming the kind of dreams Daeron dreamt, where the dragons at times were not actual dragons, but Targaryens, seen in the dream as dragons.

[/spoiler]

I should add, though, that it seems to me to be the case that Targaryens are also capable of dreaming of dragons, with these dreams depicting actual dragons (and not Targaryens as dragons). I personally suspect that Aerion dreamt such a dream, about the return of the dragons, causing him, whilst drunk, to drink the cup of wildfire, expecting himself to turn into a dragon, whereas the reality, in that case, was that his dream had shown Daenerys 70 years later walking into a funeral pyre and three dragons coming forth.

 

[spoiler]

I also admit that it is possible that Teora dreams are prophetically depicting Aegon and Daenerys fighting. And it might even be the case that she has some drop of Targaryenblood, through a marriage between House Tolland and House Martell.

[/spoiler]

In short, trying to track where prophetic powers come from, is quite difficult :)

 

I fully admit that it is possible that it is caused due to Targaryen blood, as explained above.

 

So to the question

I'd say.. In what sense do they dream of dragons? When does Jon dream of dragons?

 

If Jon dreams a prophetic dream containing dragons who depict Targaryens or those with Targaryen blood, it would be a sign of his ancestry. If Tyrion does the same.. It would definitly point towards it,  yes.

 

If Jon simply dreams about seeing a dragon fly by, though.. That might be prophetic, but not necessarily caused by Targaryen blood. For Tyrion, a prophetic dream containing an actual dragon (and not a dragon where a Targaryen is meant), could similarly have other causes. 

 

 

 

On topic of Tyrion's dreams, though, I'd like to draw attention to the fact that Tyrion has stated

 

"[...] I seldom even dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons."

 

If Tyrion had dragon dreams, why does he not dream about them anymore? The argument "“Wine helps me sleep,” Tyrion had protested. Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said." has been given before, but to that, I ask, if he drinks so much as to not dream about the type of dreams that plagued Daeron so much, why does he state the following?

 

If I drink enough fire wine, he told himself, perhaps I’ll dream of dragons.

 

Sounds to me, that here, Tyrion says he wants to drink a lot in the hopes of dreaming of dragons.. :dunno:

We just see it differently.  I understand you are trying to separate 'casually dreaming of a dragon' and having a 'prophetic dragon dream'.  You are saying they are different, one = Targaryen and the other = nothing.    And I get that.  However in these 5 novels the only people who dream of dragons in any way (prophetic or not) have Targaryen blood.  And Tyrion brings it up more than anyone else, even Dany. GRRM is trying to tell us something here, do you really disagree with that?  I dont see the need to break down each dream, the only thing that matters is that Tyrion is having them, and has had them his entire life. Dany has them as does Shireen and Teora (please gods tell us the Toland family tree soon!!).  So there is significance to it, whether they are prophetic or not.

 

 

Now I read the entire chapter when Jon is talking to Ygritte.  First he is telling her about The Old King Jaehaerys and his wife Alysanne and when they came to Winterfell brought 6 of their dragons and Alysanne flew Syrax up to visit the Wall.  He tells the story, then switched gear and out of nowhere says; 

“I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—”

 

So he is talking about Targaryen royalty visiting the wall, then goes straight into; 'I had another friend who dreamed of dragons'.  Which would certainly confirm that Tyrion was not just day-dreaming or wishful thinking or whatever else many posters use to casually cast away Tyrion's dragon dreams. They are real, he has them and Jon Snow is talking about them while discussing other Targaryen royalty.

 

If, like you say, Jon is not comparing himself to Tyrion, that he is not claiming that he also had the dreams, then the only other people he could be talking about are Alysanne and Jaehaerys (both BOTD).  So right there is a very strong bit of proof towards AJT.  Jon is saying, this dwarf I knew also dreamed of dragons just like Alysanne did (since she is a Targaryen and everyone knows that only Targs have dreams about dragons.)

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't say that he loved to take shit from Aerys. You can take a lot of crap from someone without actually liking it. Tywin was ambitious, and the only position higher than Hand of the King, would be being the actual King (and even that might not always be the case).

 

The distinction I find telling here, is that Tywin was willing to endure all of the public taunts and insults directed towards himself, but the second someone dared to do so towards his beloved wife, he responsed by trying to quit. Aerys crossed a line there, but in the end, not far enough for Tywin to go against Aerys' refusal of his resignment. And that might be where Joanna comes into play again. She 'ruled' Tywin, so it is possible that she convinced him not to push the issue..

Sorry, that was a language barrier thing.  I didnt literally mean Tywin 'likes it'.  I meant that after so many years of taking shit from Aerys and doing nothing it would appear Tywin likes it, since he does nothing to stop it.  It's sort of a joke I guess, I know he does not actually like it, but if people let something happen so much in their lives what other conclusion can be drawn?  He could have resigned at any point if he hated Aerys, or hated the way Aerys treated him, but he never did.

 

 

I think our point holds strong that since Tywin did not care or lift a finger when Ser Illyn's tongue was torn out, he would also not care about a random comment about his wife's breasts.  But I do believe that sex with the king was enough to make Tywin try and resign, only that though.

[Maia]

People can dream about dragons without being Targaryens, but there's dreaming of dragons and dreaming of dragons, if you get what I mean. There's dreaming of the animals themselves like one might dream about a friend, or another animal, and then there's dreaming the way Daeron the Drunken did.

 

Indeed. IMHO, there is a bit of conflation of being able to have  prophetic dreams that, while rare,  doesn't seem to be tied to one specific ancestry - we have seen seers of the First Men, Targaryen, Free Cities (which may or may not have ultimately come from their Valyrian ancestry), the moonsingers of Jogos N'ai, etc.

These people may see dragons in their prophetic dreams, if they (or Targaryens) prominently  figure in the future that they can glimpse. They aren't particularly attracted by those dragons that they see either. I don't hold with the notion that only Targ seers envision other Targs as their heraldic animal when having a prophetic dream, since Moqorro saw Euron as a dark kracken in his fires, as well as multiple "dragons",some of whom have to be people, hence "true and false",  Melisandre saw Bran and Jon as wolves, etc. I count both Shireen and Theora Toland in this group.  

 

And then there are Targaryens, who, while generally not of prophetic bend, vividly dream of and long for dragons specifically. I.e. Dany,  of course and maester Aemon:

 

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one."

 

From everything we know so far,Tyrion seems to belong to that second group. And Shireen and Theora don't.

 

 

“Not Robert the Second,” Tyrion said. “Aerys the Third.”

 

For example, this can be taken as a much stronger clue in favor of A+J=C+J than anything proposed in the OP for AJT.

 

Except that we now know from WoIAF  that young Aerys had been _nothing_ like Joff, so how is it any kind of clue? And anyway, none of J&C's incestuous kids have any physical Targ features, which would make this very implausible.

And also there is the fact that Aerys nearly flipped out with jealousy after he heard about the twins birth, so clearly _he_ didn't consider their paternity to be in any doubt.

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

Indeed. IMHO, there is a bit of conflation of being able to have  prophetic dreams that, while rare,  doesn't seem to be tied to one specific ancestry - we have seen seers of the First Men, Targaryen, Free Cities (which may or may not have ultimately come from their Valyrian ancestry), the moonsingers of Jogos N'ai, etc.

These people may see dragons in their prophetic dreams, if they (or Targaryens) prominently  figure in the future that they can glimpse. They aren't particularly attracted by those dragons that they see either. I don't hold with the notion that only Targ seers envision other Targs as their heraldic animal when having a prophetic dream, since Moqorro saw Euron as a dark kracken in his fires, as well as multiple "dragons",some of whom have to be people, hence "true and false",  Melisandre saw Bran and Jon as wolves, etc. I count both Shireen and Theora Toland in this group.  

 

And then there are Targaryens, who, while generally not of prophetic bend, vividly dream of and long for dragons specifically. I.e. Dany,  of course and maester Aemon:

 

"I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one."

 

From everything we know so far,Tyrion seems to belong to that second group. And Shireen and Theora don't.

 

 

:agree: Yes, this idea is one that I have been formulating for a while as this debate over dragon dreams continues, but have not had time to solidify and put forth clearly. Thank you for doing so. I agree that there is a difference between prophetic dreams that happen to have dragons as part of them (we see a few non-Targs have these) and dreams that focus primarily on dragons. Tyrion clearly has these, and if he is not a Targ, he would be the only example we are given of someone who has such dreams and is not a Targ. I consider this clue to be a fairly strong clue.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

:agree: Yes, this idea is one that I have been formulating for a while as this debate over dragon dreams continues, but have not had time to solidify and put forth clearly. Thank you for doing so. I agree that there is a difference between prophetic dreams that happen to have dragons as part of them (we see a few non-Targs have these) and dreams that focus primarily on dragons. Tyrion clearly has these, and if he is not a Targ, he would be the only example we are given of someone who has such dreams and is not a Targ. I consider this clue to be a fairly strong clue.

LOL, no shit it's a very strong clue.  If this were happening to Jon, fAegon, Dany, Aemon or Viserys, everyone would brush it off as 'obviously because they are Targaryen'.

 

So yeah, Tyrion is the bastard of Aerys.