On the show, are Sansa and Jon destined for each other's arms?

[Lady Knows Nothing]

 

On 7/3/2016 at 0:55 PM, Lady Ren said:

Your entire post is how I see it going down. 

@bold: yes and yes. If Jon and Sansa do marry, I think this line is what will motivate them to make that decision and all that come after. It's about what you have. At this point all they have is Winterfell. After sacrificing thousands of lives to get Winterfell back, I don't see either one of them balking at a political marriage that would secure their home and futures. 

But then again, any political alliances (not just marriage) hinge on (1) when the truth about Jon's birth becomes common knowledge, and (2) where Dany arrives with her fleet.

A point on their conflict and the purpose of it:

Sansa's lying about the Vale annoyed people because if she is always ultimately going to choose her family, then what is the point of all these ambiguous looks/dealings? It's a big waste of time. Unless a big plot point is to show us that while Jon & Sansa don't trust each other fully yet, they will one day, and the journey to that point matters. 

If Sansa wants to trust Jon (confirmed) and Jon already trusts her (confirmed), a 2 minute conversation wherein she breaks down and tells him everything would do the trick (i.e.: make Jon seem less stupid and Sansa less questionable). But the writers aren't doing that. Even when Sansa apologizes it's a weak apology. And Jon just responds by comforting her. 

Their relationship and relationship problems have become a central aspect of the show, whether romantic or not. 

Their tension summed up: Their conflict stems from their lack of communication. Jon's failure is that he's not attentive to her emotions. Sansa's failure is that she holds back too much. When they interact I'm always overtaken by his maleness and her femaleness. But that could have more to do with the fact that as characters, they fit traditional gender roles to a "T". But then again, direction and writing always take their interactions to a "..." point, and then quick-recovery (usually by Sansa). It's the second act of their interactions that make me wonder. 

I feel like I'm being told that while they are family, they're quite not brother and sister. 

I could be wrong about everything, but if the show is making me wait for the time when these two finally learn to communicate and understand each other, all I know is that it will be bloody brilliant. If they're not learning how to be a couple, they're at the very least learning how to be a team.

By the way, this is my first time posting. Thanks for all the great posts everyone  

I don't agree that Sansa's apology was a weak apology. I think she was sorry for not telling him about Littlefinger and Jon said that he would not have won the battle if Littlefinger's army hadn't come. I agree with you that these two need to learn to communicate and work like a team which was the main point of the scene that they share together which is that they have to be honest with each other and trust each other and not fight a war among themselves.

23 hours ago, Lady Ren said:

Jon and Sansa are still known to others and to each other as brother and sister, but we know differently now. They were reunited in 6x04 alongside Theon and Yara (who groped each other a while back) and Marg and Loras who shared the same lover/husband for some time. Those two pairs were/are portrayed as rock-solid, despite those elements. 

My point is that by being asked to question their loyalty (i.e.: "Jon needs to watch out for Sansa") it's possible that we are really being asked to question what they mean to each other. They're family - that's undeniable. 

On one hand, the storyline we are promised- betrayal, sibling rivalry - it could be the endpoint. It could be the bittersweet ending George promised: with one Stark winning and another losing. 

But if their tension is only leading to rivalry, then Sansa would lose. She would lose Stannis style. Just for the sake of the narrative. The writers are actually pretty damn good at what they do, and I just don't feel the danger where they are telling me to feel the danger. I feared the Faith Militant, but then Cersei bombed the holy place.

My guess is that Jon's doubting Sansa could be what causes problems for him. She's very reserved and quick to retreat. Just one side-long look in hers and Littlefinger's direction would be enough to seal her mouth the hell shut. Either way, Jon's not Ned. He "killed the boy" and he's a bit of a wild card now. 

What does Jon even want by the way? He's not just a weapon, not anymore. Everyone is talking about Sansa's expression in the King in the North scene, but Jon's was just as interesting. He looked a little incredulous, determined, but also like he had just discovered a whole new world. 

 

 

I agree that Jon doubting Sansa is what causes problems for him. We saw this in season six when Sansa tells him about Ramsey and he did not give Rickon back alive and they didn't have a big enough army to defeat him and he lost a good portion of his men because he did not listen. I am not understanding when you mean "Jon's not Ned. He 'killed the boy'". If you are talking about the execution scene of the men who stabbed him, I think that is absolutely something Ned would do. To me, Ned is not someone who likes it when people abandon their duties. In season one, we see Ned beheading a young Night's Watch boy who ran away from his post out of duty. Jon was obeying his duty as a commander by executing those men.

22 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

There's nothing romantic between these two characters. Nor the other brother and sister pairs, other than Jaime and Cersei, which is toxic.

(Also, Viserys pinching Dany's breast is hardly a basis for a romance. Margaery never had anything to do with Loras. Asha momentarily conned Theon to put him in his place.)

You make a very good point. Viserys may have an incestuous lust for his sister but Dany does not return this feeling. He views her more as property to be bought and sold to benefit him. Asha I think is a lesbian and so she was more amused by Theon feeling her up. And we know that Jaime is in love with Cersei but we do not know if she mirrors this same love. She said in season six that she "enjoyed fucking him because she liked it". But I don't know if she truly loves him or if she just sees him as a toy.

18 hours ago, Lady Ren said:

Honestly I think Arya Sansa will be the best Stark reunion. 

Could be wishful thinking, but yeah. Sisters fight - it's what we do. At the end of the day they make up Frozen style. Because they love each other. 

They're all grown up. They're capable of patience and understanding. And they're grateful for the right things. 

Life's not a competition. Look at Tyrion and Jamie. Shouldn't Tyrion just despise Jamie? I'm sure he did when he was younger, and I'm sure Jamie deserved it. Now they got each others backs. 

 

I agree I am really looking forward to having them reunited. Yeah in the first season they fought and didn't see eye to eye but as you said sisters fight. Now that they've both have gone through a lot and grown up, I think or at least I hope they would have an understanding and new love for each other.

18 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

Sansa doesn't seem to care about anyone from her family. Her cruelty to Arya and coldness to Jon in the backstory. Her betrayal of Arya in the first season. Her abandonment of Rickon and Jon this season. Her constant decisions to side with her manipulators against her family (Cersei, Littlefinger). I could see Jon or Arya dying for each other. It's not something that I would ever envision Sansa doing. 

I don't want her to die though. I don't think that would accomplish much besides pointless tragedy. I just want her to go to the Vale and stay there. Let the family members who actually care about each other stay in Winterfell. 

I don't think that's true. In the first season, she was only 12-13 and she made a mistake and fell for the glamour/fantasy of wanting to get married to prince charming (sarcasm) Joffery and to live happily ever after but she had to gradually realize that is not so and the real world is not rainbows and butterflies. As the series goes on, she becomes in my opinion more humble and finds a new appreciation for the North and her family. If anything I think her experiences have brought her even closer to her family.

9 hours ago, Sansa Snow said:

How could Jon and Dany end up together? I just don't get it. Jon leaving North to rule the Seven Kingdoms with some Targaryen woman doesn't fit his character at all. Actually even this wouldn't be possible, because Dany would be the ruling queen and Jon her consort. Jon loves and respects the North too much to ever leave it. His whole story has been all about the north and the Others. He will fight his biggest battle over there. I can't see that Jon would even like Dany.... and her smug smile while riding Drogon to bring fireee and bloood to Westerosi people. Jon and Dany are too different characters interested in very different things to get along. Or would Dany live in the North with Jon? I can't really imagine Dany enjoying the northern lifestyle. Sansa on the other hand is very modest, kind, polite, beautiful and most importantly a true Northerner. A woman more suitable for Jon.

I agree I don't think Jon will ever leave the North to rule with Dany. I think that they will more likely make an alliance to defeat Cersei and the White Walkers.

5 hours ago, Winter's Cold said:

She abandoned Rickon and Jon and kept the Vale army secret. She betrayed Arya at the trident. She denounced her family as traitors. She may have her reasons for doing these things but Sansa has never been a family first type of person. That's what makes her the foremost candidate for a potential Stark betrayal.

Quoting Sansa she "did what she had to do to survive". She technically didn't betray Arya. She just said that she "couldn't remember" basically pleading the 5th. When she denounce her family as traitors she did it in order to avoid suspicion from Cersei and Joffery. Now that she is reunited with Jon, I think she will become more of a family first person.
 

[Joan Jett]

15 minutes ago, Lady Knows Nothing said:

Quoting Sansa she "did what she had to do to survive". She technically didn't betray Arya. She just said that she "couldn't remember" basically pleading the 5th. When she denounce her family as traitors she did it in order to avoid suspicion from Cersei and Joffery. Now that she is reunited with Jon, I think she will become more of a family first person.
 

Sticking up for Arya should have been her gut instinct. Her sister was in real danger, she should have tried to protect her. That's how wolves are supposed to act, they're supposed to be loyal and put the pack before themselves. But she didn't, she put Joffrey first and that's why Sansa lost her wolf. 

Also idk about Sansa becoming more of a "family person". She made no attempts to save her little brother Rickon and lied to Jon for half the season. That's not being a "family person." And if what the actors say is true, I don't see her relationship with Jon getting any better. 

[Einheri]

23 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

Oh so I see you are just starting the book series. Well I don't want to spoil it for you but, like I said already, no, Sansa is not Jon's ideal woman. Far from it and there's plenty of evidence in the books, ADWD specifically. 

Yeah, Jon seems to have a thing for strong willed badasses who can handle themselves in a fight. Now while no one can deny that there is a particularly strong connection between Jon and Arya (not that strange as they were both the black sheep of their family; Arya because she don't want to conform to the gender roles of Westeros; Jon because he's a bastard), I don't think there going to be any sexual desires between the two due to their upbringing as siblings and because Arya is too young, but with that being said I do think it's very clear that the Arya type has become a sort of ideal woman in Jon's mind and that he 's attracted to woman who exhibits similar traits to her (Ygritte, Val and probably Daenerys once he finally meets her). I guess it's similar to how some men are attracted to women who remind them of their own mother (the ideal woman in their mind), but they would never think of the latter in a sexual way..

[greensleeves]

22 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

Sticking up for Arya should have been her gut instinct. Her sister was in real danger, she should have tried to protect her. That's how wolves are supposed to act, they're supposed to be loyal and put the pack before themselves. But she didn't, she put Joffrey first and that's why Sansa lost her wolf. 

Also idk about Sansa becoming more of a "family person". She made no attempts to save her little brother Rickon and lied to Jon for half the season. That's not being a "family person." And if what the actors say is true, I don't see her relationship with Jon getting any better. 

Years go by, but the unwarranted Sansa hate never ends. It never even changes.

At least we've learned one thing over the past year:

"You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation." - Beyonce, First of Her Name, Queen of Everything

 

[Lady Knows Nothing]

41 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

Sticking up for Arya should have been her gut instinct. Her sister was in real danger, she should have tried to protect her. That's how wolves are supposed to act, they're supposed to be loyal and put the pack before themselves. But she didn't, she put Joffrey first and that's why Sansa lost her wolf. 

Also idk about Sansa becoming more of a "family person". She made no attempts to save her little brother Rickon and lied to Jon for half the season. That's not being a "family person." And if what the actors say is true, I don't see her relationship with Jon getting any better. 

I will agree with you there. Her sister was about to be stabbed by him and all she said was "Stop it! You're spoiling everything!" but I do think Sansa has done a lot of growing in these past seasons. She's become more humble and gradually saw what Cersei and Joffery were really like. Even in this last season she asked Brienne about Arya and she seemed like she was relieved that she was ok and even commented when Brienne said that she wasn't dressed like a lady. I don't know maybe I'm just an empathetic person. Even thought I didn't really like Sansa in the beginning, I think she is turning into a pretty decent character.

[Joan Jett]

20 minutes ago, greensleeves said:

Years go by, but the unwarranted Sansa hate never ends. It never even changes.

At least we've learned one thing over the past year:

"You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation." - Beyonce, First of Her Name, Queen of Everything

 

All I did was state facts about thing Sansa actually did. No one said she was the worst person in Westeros. She did some pretty selfish dumb things in the first book. That's just what happened. Even GRRM has admitted that Sansa wasn't written in the best light. 

Her fans never fail to disappoint with the dramatics though, as usual. 

[Bear Claw]

14 minutes ago, Lady Knows Nothing said:

I will agree with you there. Her sister was about be stabbed by him and all she said was "Stop it! You're spoiling everything!" but I do think Sansa has done a lot of growing in seasons. She's become more humble and gradually saw what Cersei and Joffery were really like. Even in this last season she asked Brienne about Arya and she seemed like she was relieved that she was ok and even commented when Brienne said that she wasn't dressed like a lady. I don't know maybe I'm just an empathetic person. Even thought I didn't really like Sansa in the beginning, I think she is turning into a pretty decent character.

Yes, I think she has grown more affectionate towards Arya. One thing that would have signaled to me that Sansa was anti-family would have been if she didn't tell Jon about Arya. She did tell him what she knew since she included Winterfell as belonging to Arya as well. This is why I don't believe the Sansa betrayer theory. She had so many opportunities this season to go full tilt with it, but she didn't. 

[greensleeves]

1 minute ago, Joan Jett said:

All I did was state facts about thing Sansa actually did. No one said she was the worst person in Westeros. 

Her fans never fail to disappoint with the dramatics, as usual. 

The thread is satire...obviously.  But satire that is just as relevant now as it was then. 

[Lady Knows Nothing]

2 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

All I did was state facts about thing Sansa actually did. No one said she was the worst person in Westeros. 

Her fans never fail to disappoint with the dramatics, as usual. 

And I never denied what she did and thank you for stating that she isn't.

[Lady Knows Nothing]

4 minutes ago, Bear Claw said:

Yes, I think she has grown more affectionate towards Arya. One thing that would have signaled to me that Sansa was anti-family would have been if she didn't tell Jon about Arya. She did tell him what she knew since she included Winterfell as belonging to Arya as well. This is why I don't believe the Sansa betrayer theory. She had so many opportunities this season to go full tilt with it, but she didn't. 

Thanks you so much for your rely. I beginning to think I was alone. I agree with you that she won't be a betrayer. She made it a big deal that she and Jon were to take back Winterfell for their family.

[Future Null Infinity]

8 minutes ago, Lady Knows Nothing said:

Thanks you so much for your rely. I beginning to think I was alone. I agree with you that she won't be a betrayer. She made it a big deal that she and Jon were to take back Winterfell for their family.

Don't worry, You are not alone, for 18 years they are telling the same things about Sansa, same arguments heard for millions times, their treasure is the old original outline, they will bring it and make it look like the true story, the dark story of their favourite character was printed on their hearts, their dark hearts and hate for Sansa become legendary, you will hear them talking like she killed their families

each saison they will pray that it will be the saison of the death of Sansa but Karma is always here

[Winter's Cold]

Sansa in episode 4: "We have to attack Winterfell to save Rickon."

Sansa in episode 9: "Saving Rickon is impossible. There's no way Ramsay will let him live."

These statements make it seem that Sansa never truly thought that saving Rickon was possible and instead she just used him as bait to get Jon to attack Winterfell. Sansa gave up on wrong and manipulated Jon into a dangerous battle. She isn't the naive girl she was in Season 1 but she still seems to be the person that would betray her family. It's not a surprise then that some viewers believe that Sansa will team up with Littlefinger aainst Jon.

[Bear Claw]

8 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Sansa in episode 4: "We have to attack Winterfell to save Rickon."

Sansa in episode 9: "Saving Rickon is impossible. There's no way Ramsay will let him live."

These statements make it seem that Sansa never truly thought that saving Rickon was possible and instead she just used him as bait to get Jon to attack Winterfell. Sansa gave up on wrong and manipulated Jon into a dangerous battle. She isn't the naive girl she was in Season 1 but she still seems to be the person that would betray her family. It's not a surprise then that some viewers believe that Sansa will team up with Littlefinger aainst Jon.

To follow up her plan, she should not have warned him about Ramsay at the war council meeting. If she really wanted to set him up, she should have smiled and told him what a great plan he had. If she is against him, why warn him?  I don't know if it is the writing, but it doesn't make sense. 

[Future Null Infinity]

18 minutes ago, Lady Knows Nothing said:

Thanks you so much for your rely. I beginning to think I was alone. I agree with you that she won't be a betrayer. She made it a big deal that she and Jon were to take back Winterfell for their family.

You will see something which is the most bizarre thing in the world, they never discuss the story of their favourite character, they only discuss their hatred to Sansa, you will never see that anywhere

[Winter's Cold]

2 minutes ago, Bear Claw said:

To follow up her plan, she should not have warned him about Ramsay at the war council meeting. If she really wanted to set him up, she should have smiled and told him what a great plan he had. If she is against him, why warn him?  I don't know if it is the writing, but it doesn't make sense. 

It makes sense if she views Jon as a useful tool. Losing a powerful piece in chess is usually negative. Her ideal scenario would have Jon winning the battle but if he doesn't then she still has another plan.

[Future Null Infinity]

21 minutes ago, Lady Knows Nothing said:

Thanks you so much for your rely. I beginning to think I was alone. I agree with you that she won't be a betrayer. She made it a big deal that she and Jon were to take back Winterfell for their family.

They are becoming darker each day, they became the ghosts of their favourite character, empty shells filled with hatred, for 18 years, they are praying that their favourite character kills Sansa, every time they saw sansa they die and then their hatred revives them

[Bear Claw]

Just now, Winter's Cold said:

It makes sense if she views Jon as a useful tool. Losing a powerful piece in chess is usually negative. Her ideal scenario would have Jon winning the battle but if he doesn't then she still has another plan.

If her plans are nefarious, she had no advantage to warn him. I'll add that if she truly knows Rickon has no hope, and she wants Jon gone then she shouldn't tell him Rickon is a lost cause. She should encourage him to do anything he can to save Rickon. That way she is rid of them both. That didn't happen, so I have to conclude that she warns Jon because she cares about him. The conflicting statements about Rickon could be the writing. Jon certainly didn't make a big deal about it in episode 10.He didn't seem to care too much about hiding the Vale army either. If the character doesn't care, I can only assume the writers don't think it is a big deal.  

[Winter's Cold]

1 minute ago, Bear Claw said:

If her plans are nefarious, she had no advantage to warn him. I'll add that if she truly knows Rickon has no hope, and she wants Jon gone then she shouldn't tell him Rickon is a lost cause. She should encourage him to do anything he can to save Rickon. That way she is rid of them both. That didn't happen, so I have to conclude that she warns Jon because she cares about him. The conflicting statements about Rickon could be the writing. Jon certainly didn't make a big deal about it in episode 10.He didn't seem to care too much about hiding the Vale army either. If the character doesn't care, I can only assume the writers don't think it is a big deal.  

She cares for Jon the same way Littlefinger cares for her. She used Jon as a Ned Stark replacement in the hopes that the North would rally to him. She manipulated Jon into attacking  Winterfell by telling him he could save Rickon. She wants to get revenge on Ramsay and Jon losing the battle would not allow for that therefore she does warn him to not fall into Ramsay's traps. If she truly cared for him and didn't view him as a pawn, she would have not hid the Vale army from him.

Of course Jon doesn't make a big deal about it. He cares deeply about all of his family members even Sansa. He also knows that he did fall into Ramsay's trap so he blames himself more than Sansa for so many men dying. It doesn't change that Sansa cares for him the same way player cares for a useful piece.

[Philokles]

You are all overanalysing Sansa's character, it simply does not have this depth in the show. The writers did not consider the implications of the actions they made her perform. Under a logical analysis, the only rational explanation for her behaviour is treachery, but that is not what D&D wanted or what they will proceed under the impression happened . Wait for the books for Sansa's character to be done justice.

[Lady Ren]

Arya and Sansa are not wrapped up in any kind of competition. Whether it's for Jon's affections, the title of Queen, or the last piece of cake. They're grown ups now. And grown ups with a descent level of self-awareness don't engage in embarrassing behaviour like that.

As far as a Jon and Sansa feud go: They're not just convenient allies, they're a 50/50 team. 

Jon's 50: Jon isn't anyone's tool anymore. Sansa didn't ask him to fight for her honour in 6x04. She asked him to fight alongside her. He thought about it and then said "yes!" for Rickon. When he said "I won't ever let him touch you again", she said "meh" (i.e.: find something else to fight for). When he started beating Ramsey to an unrecognizable pulp, he saw her and stopped (i.e.: I think this belongs to you). He isn't her mindless little puppy, and she isn't using him. She hasn't cashed in on any opportunity to emotionally blackmail him using her experiences. She's always talked about their family. 

Sansa's 50:  I don't see Sansa overthrowing a true partnership with Jon ("where will we go", "I'm having the Lord's chamber prepared for you"), for the chance that her ally Littlefinger wasn't lying about his creepy picture ("me on the iron thrown and you alongside me").  Jon wouldn't require her to prostitute herself for power (unlike others). He looks out for her (i.e.: Glover showdown, among many). She has a position of (tangible) power alongside Jon. I don't see her giving it up. Not if she wants to be safe. As an aside, I think part of the reason she holds back with her "insights" and tentative plans are because she wants to be taken seriously. She wants her word and opinion to matter. She told them about Blackfish and he, well, that was a shit-show. 

Like I said before, I think their storyline next season is more than just Sansa choosing her family over ambition. But if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.