Monoman32 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Monoman, I'm gonna insert myself in the convo. I don't think it's just the neutrality that was broken. Jon really went off the deep end. He allowed a NW traitor like Mance to live He sent that same man to infiltrate Winterfell to steal away the bride of Lord Ramsay He creates a wildling force and about to head out to confront the Boltons. Let's put this in context. He had just executed Slynt for disrespecting the Lord Commander and failing to obey the first few times the command was given. What was Jon doing all that time? He was breaking more laws than Slynt! Slynt is slimey but you can see where those who liked him would hold it against Jon after he just revealed he had been breaking rules behind their back. If you're saying that the night watch should have just let Jon ride out and fight the Boltons, steal away the bride, then we are never going to have any common ground here. Jon was completely in the wrong. He needed to be stopped. But he's so hard-headed and so focused on helping fArya that he was not going to listen to common sense at that point. Had Samwell been there, he would have tried to stop Jon, but would have failed. I disagree. 1. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Jon wanted Stannis to spare Mance so he could they could form an alliance with them. 2. I'm admitted that this was Jon making a mistake and breaking NW neutrality 3. After he receives a message saying that if doesn't hand over fArya, Selyse, Shireen, Val, Theon and little monster then Ramsay is going to attack the NW and kill Jon. Jon didn't even have fArya or Theon and the others were protected by guest right. Jon Arryn was offered a similar deal by Aerys and we know how that turned out. Jon gave Slynt 6 chances to ride for Greyguard and Janos threw it in his face and publicly insulted him. Jon was in the wrong, but so was Stannis, and the Boltons(if they wrote the pink letter) and the Crown. All of them broke NW neutrality. Yes I think Marsh should have let Jon ride south. Look at this way, if Jon takes the wildlings and only the wildlings and marches south to fight the Boltons he is most likely going to lose. This means that Jon and wildlings all die, which definitely serves Marsh's agenda. Marsh can send a letter to the Boltons or the Crown telling them of Jon's plan and after Jon is defeated, then Marsh can be elected LC. Marsh is obviously worried about the backlash from the Boltons or the Crown, but he is a fool to. The Crown will never send an army that far North and the second that Jon leaves Castle Black to march south, all Marsh has to do is send a letter to the Boltons telling them what is happening. This would save both Marsh's ass and the NW ass. The beauty of Jon's arc in ADWD is that there is sooo much grey area when it comes to what is right and what is wrong. Putting 100% of the blame on Jon is just as stupid as giving him none of the blame. Multiple people are at fault here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targaryen Restoration Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 The Pink Letter writer made the Boltons enemies of the watch. They threatened the NW and asked for ridiculous terms that would break with guest right and neutrality. Ignoring it, giving in partially or moving for WF was all problematic and breaking neutrality. Any response or even non response could be regarded as treasonous by someone. Ignore it - and you've supposedly got an army coming to attack the Wall, because anti-Bolton Give in to the (impossible) demands - break neutrality anti Stannis, and get killed by the Queen's men. Go to WF - break neutrality anti Bolton The only possible response to someone making a threat like that and completely ignore NW neutrality is to attack them yourself. You're forgetting that it was Jon's actions that brought this trouble on. Sending Mance to winterfell to sneak out their wife is a crime and rightly offended the Boltons. Jon broke so many laws there. The demands of the letter were reasonable under the circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 You're forgetting that it was Jon's actions that brought this trouble on. Sending Mance to winterfell to sneak out their wife is a crime and rightly offended the Boltons. Jon broke so many laws there. The demands of the letter were reasonable under the circumstances. I do not even believe that Pink Letter was written by Ramsay. It's not even signed by the other lords. It's not written by "brown" ink that flakes. And Ramsay doesn't even use the word "whore". It was Stannis and Mel's decision to let Mance live, not Jon's. He didn't break any laws there. Mel would have sent Mance anyway, with or without Jon's consent, and the spearwives have taken no vows. The demands were completely unreasonable. You can't demand guests to be handed over. Handing over a queen, princess etc over "reasonable" and not breaking NW neutrality? BS! On top of that he doesn't know who the hell Reek was. And he certainly had no bride to give back. The Boltons are not his liege lords. They have no command over him. Just like Ser Amory, Gold Cloaks and Queen Cersei had no command over Yoren. ETA: Have you forgotten how several wardens rebelled against Aerys for his demands to hand over his guests, and that was against a lawful king who was their sovereign? Or how a certain lord stopped one of the Green princes from attacking the Black prince in his house? There is nothing "reasonable" about demanding to hand over guests. And let's not even start on the Bolton crimes - one being staking a claim on lands and keep through marriage at sword point, and a fake marriage with someone who isn't even who they say she is, murdering his king, burning his king's home down, massacring his king's garrisson down, pretending your king's heirs are dead knowing full well they're alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Littlefinger. But it was intentional and he planned for his actions to have negative effects and create maximum chaos. So I guess it is Cersei. She is not a good person but she didn't expect her infidelity and other actions (too many to count, the whole AFFC book for one) to lead to the domino of disaster they lead to. Of course she also causes plenty of intentional misery as well in addition to the butterfly effect of decisions that their results don't go as she expects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fresh PtwP Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Rhaegar and Lyanna- I hope the honeymoon was worth it. Aerys obviously had a hand in RR but I would argue that this Is the x-factor. Lysa Arryn- was a headache for both sides with her lies and neutrality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stag_legion Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Targaryens and Lannisters! Never trust them light haired fiends. Always go with the dark haired ones (Baratheon, Stark) :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofwinter Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 This is the classic chicken and egg argument here, with a lot more chickens and a lot more eggs. The only wrong answer is.... Hodor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I don't think we can really put it on one person, almost every character made mistakes and maybe they wouldn't have made them if characters before them didn't make mistakes and so on and so forth, it's a chainreaction to begin with. But if I have to pick one person that I think started the chainreaction i'd go for littlefinger, though since he did it on purpose Lysa Arryn...? She acted on his behalf so I don't really blame her but than again you're asking for people who made mistakes and I don't really blame any of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barbrey Dustin Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Targaryens and Lannisters! Never trust them light haired fiends. Always go with the dark haired ones (Baratheon, Stark) :P Starks and Baratheons! Good grief, that would make for a world full of ugly. Ug-Ly. :worried: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
to steel Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 jon is to blame for everything thats going to happen to westeros now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 jon is to blame for everything thats going to happen to westeros now How so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 jon is to blame for everything thats going to happen to westeros now That is completely ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis broatheon Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Danny in Essos and Cercei in westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRLR Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Rhyme Maester Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Sansa.I've thought it since my first read of the first book. There will always be bad men but when your actions lead to removing the good men, the Ying to their Yang if you will, the balance is lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Sansa.I've thought it since my first read of the first book. There will always be bad men but when your actions lead to removing the good men, the Ying to their Yang if you will, the balance is lost. As if Sansa had power to do anything.;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
to steel Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 How so? he doomed humans cuz of his delusions. he should never be given the seat of a ruler hes not fit to rule atall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis broatheon Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 he doomed humans cuz of his delusions. he should never be given the seat of a ruler hes not fit to rule atall. I thouht that you were a better troll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Definitely Cat and Ned. Boo good characters, only bad ones are actually good. Littlefinger, Lysa, Jaime, and Cersei. Had their heads been severed before the start of chapter one, thousands of lives might not have been lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Red Rhyme Maester Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 As if Sansa had power to do anything.;) Sansa had the power to keep her mouth shut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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