Which century in our Middle Ages would ASOIAF be set in?

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Recently, I picked up Ian Mortimer's The Time Traveler's Guide to Medieval England. In it, Mortimer states that the middle ages lasted for nearly a millennium, and there was quite a bit of change over the course of time, so he chooses to focus on the 14th century (1300s).

 

That got me thinking about our favorite series. Martin based ASOIAF on the Wars of the Roses, which happened during the late fifteenth century (1455-1487). However, the world of Westeros just doesn't seem like the late fifteenth century in its cultural, social, or economic development. It feels to me much more like the High Middle Ages for some reason... much more 1100s/1200s than late 1400s. A case might even be made for the Dark Ages, although I think that's more analogous to Westeros pre-Targaryen Conquest, with its warring kingdoms.

 

What are your thoughts? Although this is a magical setting, which part of the Middle Ages feels like Westeros? Or is it an amalgamation of many different periods? If there are people around who are specialists in medieval history or literature, I would love to hear your perspectives.

[Richard Writhen]

My guess is 14th Century. Europe and latin America are represented as Westeros and Dorne.

 

 

 

 

Essos would be the Asian countries I guess. Our west is their east.

[Taenqyrhae]

It's not really analogous to any century.  They have technologies that weren't around until well after the Middle Ages (e.g. telescopes, glass greenhouses, thermal heating) and some of these techs have been around for thousands of years.  They have opium-based painkillers and penicillin.  There are some structures in the world that are bigger than anything we have built in our world, even in modern times.  Politically, Westeros is far more unified and centralized than any equivalent Middle Age empire.  Westeros is really a mishmash of late medieval times - gunpowder + lots of renaissance and later tech.

Essos is an even bigger mess.  Some places seem stuck in the Bronze Age, but politically many of the city states are very similar to those in early Modern times.  Then you have the Summer Islands with ships that sound a lot like sailing ships from the late 15th century or later, which are much more advanced than anything anybody else seems to have in the water.

[Taenqyrhae]

My guess is 14th Century. Europe and latin America are represented as Westeros and Dorne.

 

 

 

 

Essos would be the Asian countries I guess. Our west is their east.

But there was no Latin America in the 14th century.  :D

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Yes, I realize it's an amalgamation of different times...

 

But when I'm inside the story, I was thinking late 1100s/1200s because something about Dany's Essos POVs and the people and places are reminiscent of the travels of Marco Polo, and POVs in the Riverlands remind me of the legends of Robin Hood (generally set during the rule of Richard Coeur de Lion). Also, medieval England was pretty stable under Plantagenet rule, but hadn't gone through the devastation of the late Middle Ages yet (especially the Black Death).

 

Of course, there's nothing like the Crusades in this story, and that was a major factor in the real life Middle Ages.

 

Braavos feels like Renaissance Italy, though. I'll give you that.

[Ser Lepus]

None. There isn't a perfect fit, or even a good fit. Westeros has late medieval/Renaissance-level tech (minus gunpowder) and better than Renaissance-level medicine, combined with early feudalism. They don't have a Parliament, Estates General, Reichstag or Cortes. Their industry, finance and trade is underdeveloped. They have very few cities when compared to late medieval Europe, and those cities lack self-government, universities and a vigorous merchant class. And the role of the Faith is much less important than that of the Catholic Church.

[Codename: Nymeria]

It's not really analogous to any century.  They have technologies that weren't around until well after the Middle Ages (e.g. telescopes, glass greenhouses, thermal heating) and some of these techs have been around for thousands of years.  They have opium-based painkillers and penicillin.  There are some structures in the world that are bigger than anything we have built in our world, even in modern times.  Politically, Westeros is far more unified and centralized than any equivalent Middle Age empire.  Westeros is really a mishmash of late medieval times - gunpowder + lots of renaissance and later tech.

Essos is an even bigger mess.  Some places seem stuck in the Bronze Age, but politically many of the city states are very similar to those in early Modern times.  Then you have the Summer Islands with ships that sound a lot like sailing ships from the late 15th century or later, which are much more advanced than anything anybody else seems to have in the water.

 

Mostly agree with this - falcotron (who I'm sure will come along to tell me I'm wrong) and I discussed this in another thread about weaponry. I think I thought it would be roughly analogous to the 11th Century. Some of the weaponry (counterweight trebuchets, dromonds) definitely come from a later era, but at the same time, Planetos appears to be missing technologies like gunpowder and, certainly, moveable type, which is late 14th century earth at the latest. To me, it seems very pre-Renaissance, especially given the lack of reform/backlash against the Fot7.

 

Also - it's fairly clear that Westeros is the United Kingdom and Essos is Europe, no? Dorne is Wales. And there was absolutely a Latin American in the 14th Century, it just wan't known to the Europeans. Although a number of empires from the Dark Ages (the Byzantine, for instance) seem as well organized as Westeros.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

^ I think the Free Cities are continental Europe. Parts further East seem much more Middle Eastern/Asian... Yi Ti is in eastern Essos, and certainly not meant to evoke Europe. And the Dothraki Sea seems to mimic the central Asian steppes.

[Codename: Nymeria]

^ I think the Free Cities are continental Europe. Parts further East seem much more Middle Eastern/Asian... Yi Ti is in eastern Essos, and certainly not meant to evoke Europe. And the Dothraki Sea seems to mimic the central Asian steppes.

 

I would totally agree with that, good point. Yi Ti is definitely meant to evoke the Orient, especially what with all the Topaz/Opal/Onyx Emprerors.

[Ser Lepus]

Also - it's fairly clear that Westeros is the United Kingdom and Essos is Europe, no? Dorne is Wales. And there was absolutely a Latin American in the 14th Century, it just wan't known to the Europeans. Although a number of empires from the Dark Ages (the Byzantine, for instance) seem as well organized as Westeros.

Westeros isn't just Great Britain, but a mix of European countries. The Reach and the Arbor have a strong french feeling, the Vale feels Central-European (the Alps). The Iron Islands have a strong Scandinavian vibe. The North is kind of Scottish (as seen from England). The Riverlands remind me of the Rhine region. Dorne is basically a mix of Walles (because of the way it joined the Seven Kingdoms) and Spain with a bit of other Mediterranean countries. The Free Cities are basically the Italian city-states (Venetia, Florence, Genoa) with a bit of the Low Countries, Tire and some other merchantile mediterranean countries.

However, none of those is a perfect fit. None of the regions are copycats to real countries.

Further east there is not a good fit for any country.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

It's not really analogous to any century.  

 

 

None. There isn't a perfect fit, or even a good fit.

These. 

[Taenqyrhae]

And there was absolutely a Latin American in the 14th Century, it just wan't known to the Europeans. 

 

It wasn't LATIN America in the 14th century, as there was nothing Latin about it at all until the Spanish showed up in the late 15th century.

Dorne doesn't seem very Latin American at all, to me.  To be analagous, there would have to be a very technologically primitive civilization that was almost completely wiped out by invaders, but the closest thing in Dorne would be when Nymeria invaded, but in that case she was invading a nation that was roughly equivalent in technology, and Nymeria did not wipe out all the native institutions of Dorne and enslave the locals, they instead merged cultures.

Dorne DOES remind me of Spain, but more analogous to before the Reconquista.  In that case, you had a local civilization being invaded by foreigners with a different culture and somewhat better technology, and the foreigners did not enslave or exterminate the Spanish locals, but instead incorporated them into their society and a new culture emerged that combined traits from the old Christian visigoths and the Muslims from Northern Africa.  That sounds like Dorne to me.

[slant]

was thinking during time of the anarchy instead of the war of roses. Because of the succession crisis. 

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Which parts? And which technology?

 

North of the Wall: Stone Age to Bronze Age.

 

Arms and armor: 15th century.

 

Ships: 8th-16th century.

 

Medicine: 18th century.

 

Feudal structure: HRE 12th century.

 

Glass stuff: 17th century.

 

Mostly, it averages out to 15th or 16th century.

 

^ I think the Free Cities are continental Europe. Parts further East seem much more Middle Eastern/Asian... Yi Ti is in eastern Essos, and certainly not meant to evoke Europe. And the Dothraki Sea seems to mimic the central Asian steppes.

The Free Cities are Italy. Venice, Rome, Florence...

[Taenqyrhae]

I agree that Westeros seems very strongly influenced by the British Isles, as GRRM has admitted.  They even had 7 kingdoms, including one of Norse invaders, which were unified after an invasion from across the sea - I think that's even when the Norse were kicked out, which would correspond well with the Iron Islanders losing control over the Riverlands when the Targaryans showed up.

It goes beyond historical analogies, too.  Westeros south of the Neck is almost exactly the same shape as Ireland, turned upside down.  Put Great Britain just north of your upside down Ireland and attach it by a little land bridge and you have the rest of Westeros, though the shape is not as similar as the southern part is to Ireland.

[United Essos]

My guess would be 5th-8th century... Or even earlier, when the romans fought the wild tribes in the north, while the politics was done in the sunny Rome.. Still some bits, especially the ones that occur near the trident remind me of England in the 13-14th century... Kinda messy series...

[Woofless]

12th century.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

But there was no Latin America in the 14th century.   :D

 

 

Excuse me?????

 

By the time the Incas appeared, we were already in like our third Empire.

[Woofless]

I agree that Westeros seems very strongly influenced by the British Isles, as GRRM has admitted.  They even had 7 kingdoms, including one of Norse invaders, which were unified after an invasion from across the sea - I think that's even when the Norse were kicked out, which would correspond well with the Iron Islanders losing control over the Riverlands when the Targaryans showed up.

It goes beyond historical analogies, too.  Westeros south of the Neck is almost exactly the same shape as Ireland, turned upside down.  Put Great Britain just north of your upside down Ireland and attach it by a little land bridge and you have the rest of Westeros, though the shape is not as similar as the southern part is to Ireland.

 

 

I always thought GRRM just flipped the basic image of Britain.

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
 
Excuse me?????
 
By the time the Incas appeared, we were already in like our third Empire.

How Latin was it?