R+L=J v.154

[Mithras]

 

That is a condensed history book. it is better to say there were no Targ mistress and bastard recorded since Aegon IV. 

They did not play major roles in the book so they were not recorded. 

No history recorded Rhaegar had a extra son, but we have R+L=J.

Also look at the long thread of A+J=T, we know Aerys may have a bastard but history did not record anything. 

And I fail to see your point here. What do you want to prove here?

No mistress or bastard recorded so they were not possible?

No mistress or bastard recorded so we can conclude that Lyanna is definitely not a mistress?

There is no logic relationship here. 

 

AJT theory is false. It is not a theory by its own. Some people believe that three heads of the dragon are three dragonriders AND Tyrion will ride a dragon AND Targaryen blood is required to ride a dragon. As a result, they are grasping at straws to give Tyrion some Targaryen blood.

 

If the bastards/mistresses are not recorded, there is no reason to assume that they exist and infer ideas from it about RLJ.

[The Twinslayer]

 

I don't recall any Targaryen since Aegon IV having mistresses (except Aerys).

 

Daeron II didnot have a bastard. Nor we hear any such from his kids. Egg did not have any bastards. His siblings have no confirmed bastards. Egg's children didnot have any bastards. Aerys didnot have any bastard.

While Daario is not technically a mistress, Dany did take an out of wedlock lover.  

 

Viserys also had a mistress, or at least access to a prostitute he could visit without the need to frequent brothels:

 

 

Tyrion propped himself against the pillows, his head in his hands.  "Do I dream, or do you speak the Common Tongue?"

 

"Yes, my lord.  I was bought to please the king."   She was blue-eyed and fair, young and willowy.

 

We know Aerys had mistresses.  So that is every member of Rhaegar's immediate family except Rhaella, and we just don't know about her, although we do know that she carried a torch for Bonifer Hasty.  And Rhaegar's closest living relatives also got around:  think Robert, Stannis (probably) and most of the Martells.    

 

So far as Aegon V and his sons go, they all married for love (except the one who didn't get married), which makes them less likely to take mistresses.  But Rhaegar didn't marry for love, so he is in the same category as the rest.  

[purple-eyes]

 

AJT theory is false. It is not a theory by its own. Some people believe that three heads of the dragon are three dragonriders AND Tyrion will ride a dragon AND Targaryen blood is required to ride a dragon. As a result, they are grasping at straws to give Tyrion some Targaryen blood.

 

If the bastards/mistresses are not recorded, there is no reason to assume that they exist and infer ideas from it about RLJ.

 

Of course I did not say AJT is surely true. But it will tell us many things can happen under the cover. 

Let us say you are right, if the bastard and mistresses are not recorded, so there is no reason to assume they exist. 

Firstly, Aerys did have mistresses, this is a truth. 

Secondly, even there were several kings are very faithful to their wives and never slept with other women, so what?

then you can infer that Rhaegar can not sleep out of wedlock and make a bastard?

I am sorry but I have to ask you what do you want to prove here? because there was no bastard for several other kings, Rhaegar's son with Lyanna must not be a bastard? 

This is hilarious.

[Kingmonkey]

I just finished reading kingmonkey's R+L=J essay. He really does a superb job. I think that this deserves to be included in the OP in addition to The Tower of the Hand analysis.

 

Thanks mate, I appreciate the vote of confidence. I know some people aren't keen to go looking at other boards. Don't worry, Last Hearth is a friendly place, but all of that series of essays on Jon's parentage are due to make their way over here at some point fairly soon if you'd prefer to wait.

 

I'd also like to urge you all to take a look at my Puppets of Ice and Fire  essay (on this board, no chance of catching dreadful other-board diseases). It is extremely relevant to R+L=J and puts a pretty massive twist on what was going on at the ToJ, filling in a few of the gaps and giving at least a partial explanation for some of the mysteries. Not to mention raising quite a few more questions that make a change from arguing protect vs. obey for the 94th time, too.  

[Mithras]

Of course I did not say AJT is surely true. But it will tell us many things can happen under the cover. 

Let us say you are right, if the bastard and mistresses are not recorded, so there is no reason to assume they exist. 

Firstly, Aerys did have mistresses, this is a truth. 

Secondly, even there were several kings are very faithful to their wives and never slept with other women, so what?

then you can infer that Rhaegar can not sleep out of wedlock and make a bastard?

I am sorry but I have to ask you what do you want to prove here? because there was no bastard for several other kings, Rhaegar's son with Lyanna must not be a bastard? 

This is hilarious.

 

What I want to prove is that there is no reason to assume that Rhaegar kept Lyanna as a paramour and fathered a bastard from her.

[purple-eyes]

 

What I want to prove is that there is no reason to assume that Rhaegar kept Lyanna as a paramour and fathered a bastard from her.

 

There is even less reason to assume that Rhaegar kept Lyanna as a lawful wife and fathered a trueborn son from her. 

Honestly, most of the people in Westeros, book readers, and HBO show-watchers assume Rhaegar ran off with "another woman", not "another wife".

Seriously, if Lyanna is his legal wife, what is the point to run off and hide? Isnt it natural to have a child with your legal wife and enjoy the blessing of all your family and the whole world?  

[Mithras]

There is even less reason to assume that Rhaegar kept Lyanna as a lawful wife and fathered a trueborn son from her. 

Honestly, most of the people in Westeros, book readers, and HBO show-watchers assume Rhaegar ran off with "another woman", not "another wife".

Seriously, if Lyanna is his legal wife, what is the point to run off and hide? Isnt it natural to have a child with your legal wife and enjoy the blessing of all your family and the whole world?  

 

There are LOTS of reasons to believe that Jon is a trueborn son of Rhaegar.

[purple-eyes]

 

There are LOTS of reasons to believe that Jon is a trueborn son of Rhaegar.

 

There are LOTS of reasons to believe Jon will become or already is a legitimized Stark and/or Targ and/or future King. 

But there is very limited reason to believe Jon is a trueborn son at his birth. 

The biggest proof is that KG was there at TOJ to guard Lyanna, however, it is up to debate and many people did not believe that. 

[Mithras]

 

There are LOTS of reasons to believe Jon will become or already is a legitimized Stark and/or Targ and/or future King. 

But there is very limited reason to believe Jon is a trueborn son at his birth. 

The biggest proof is that KG was there at TOJ to guard Lyanna, however, it is up to debate and many people did not believe that. 

 

I don't care what many people believe. They do not raise any reasonable counter-arguments about the presence of the KG there or the known characterization of Rhaegar (who never frequented brothels) and Lyanna (who blamed Robert for being prone to extra-marital affairs). We know for certain that polygamy was never made illegal and we know from SSM that laws involving inheritance and similar issues are intentionally vague and subject to exploitation by might or similar authority that can override them.

 

Any further discussion to try to make Jon a bastard should originate from some butthurt.

 

Or in Lord Varys' case, I know that he wants to make his precious three heads of the dragon bastards born of rape.

[purple-eyes]

 

I don't care what many people believe. They do not raise any reasonable counter-arguments about the presence of the KG there or the known characterization of Rhaegar (who never frequented brothels) and Lyanna (who blamed Robert for being prone to extra-marital affairs). We know for certain that polygamy was never made illegal and we know from SSM that laws involving inheritance and similar issues are vague and subject to exploitation by might or similar authority that can override them.

 

Any further discussion to try to make Jon a bastard should originate from some butthurt.

 

Or in Lord Varys' case, I know that he wants to make his precious three heads of the dragon bastards born of rape.

 

You do not care what many believe believe. This is definitely fine. 

However, you can not change what other people believe either. 

You believe R and L got married secretly so that Jon is a trueborn prince from the very beginning, fine, but this is still your opinion. 

[Mithras]

 

You do not care what many believe believe. This is definitely fine. 

However, you can not change what other people believe either. 

You believe R and L got married secretly so that Jon is a trueborn prince from the very beginning, fine, but this is still your opinion. 

 

An opinion supported by the text; not feeble attempts to twist the text as a result of some butthurt due to a trueborn Jon.

[purple-eyes]

 

An opinion supported by the text; not feeble attempts to twist the text as a result of some butthurt due to a trueborn Jon.

 

Nobody feels painful to see a trueborn Jon (from the birth). 

I do see you feel happy to see a trueborn Jon (from the birth).  

Maybe you like rhaegar and Lyanna and their romantic story and hope they are a married couple with all the benefits of a lawful marriage, but it is better to be neutral and objective and especially be OK with other different opinions, unless you asked GRRM to write that his previous marriage and children were a feverish dream of Rhaegar. 

Then we will all agree with you: Prince Charming and Princess Snow White married happily and lived happily ever after. 

[Alia of the knife]

 
He wouldn't know that either though. With Rhaegar and Elia living on Dragonstone he shouldn't know anything but basic things about them in the years of their marriage as he'd only be seeing them occasionally, not every day as was the case when ADWD was written and Barristan said what he said with the belief that back then they lived in King's Landing (as shown by Barristan saying that Rhaegar had secrets in the Red Keep and that Aerys and Rhaegar traveled together to Harrenhal).
 
I trust the books as canon over every other source just when it's a detail like Rhaegar lived on Dragonstone instead of in King's Landing, I see no reason to think that the information mentioned by Yandel isn't true as that's a detail that's easily verifiable and would have had sources to back it up. So if the new information is current, then just adjust the old beliefs. Barristan's information itself sounds reasonably true that Rhaegar was only very fond of Elia but in light of the World Book revelation, I take his information about Rhaegar and Elia's marriage as second hand information not firsthand as I now don't think that he should know that.
 
 
There isn't, but why would he do a walk of repentance unless he had to? Killing people he thought had conspired to/killed his sons isn't illegal. They committed treason according to him so he has no need to do something that's a punishment by the church. He killed his mistress however and after he made that walk
 
 
He made a vow of fidelity so it sounds more like he did a walk of repentance for having the mistress. In which case why would he do a walk of repentance for a mistress and then publicly make a vow of fidelity unless he had to/it was recommended he do one by the Faith?
 
 
To which you would then argue that Maegor's law was overturned by at least the reign of Viserys I as Daemon Targaryen couldn't take a second wife and instead needed Viserys I to set aside his marriage to Rhea Royce if he wanted to marry Rhaenyra. And then you would argue that Daeron II also reaffirmed the turnover of Maegor's decision to allow polygamy as Daeron II forbade Daemon Blackfyre from taking a second wife.

You are still making an assumption that Selmy would not ever be assigned to Rhaegar or was never at DS.
Also, Rhaegar still apparently lived at Court at least some of the time given he still had a bedroom, or quarters at KL.
Maybe Aerys deliberately assigned Rhaegar a KG that HE could trust, rather than Rhaegars best friend, either way, it's a fictional character put into a place for the purpose of being the authors voice.

And the fact that Selmys memories are consistent with every other character is also evidence. Are you going to call into question the validity of every character whose information you don't like?

When Dany/Martin point blank asked Selmy/Martin, she said, "you were there,did my brother marry for love, or for duty?"

Selmy didn't want to tell her the truth, so he obfuscated. If Rhaegar had married for love, or grew to love Elia, that would have been a truth SO much easier to tell.

[purple-eyes]

When Dany/Martin point blank asked Selmy/Martin, she said, "you were there,did my brother marry for love, or for duty?"

Selmy didn't want to tell her the truth, so he obfuscated. If Rhaegar had married for love, or grew to love Elia, that would have been a truth SO much easier to tell.

 

Actually I am wondering why Barri did not say straightforwardly that Rhaegar married her for duty. 

It is certainly not a shame or insult to marry somebody for duty. Everybody does that without a issue.

Why did he bother to speak a lot of vague stuff about it in stead of saying : Yes, they married for duty and they respected each other?

[RumHam]

 

Polygamy is not illegal in Westeros. Arguing otherwise is a waste of page space.

 

Why? I still think it's probably illegal. We're certainly never told it's legal, and we have no examples of anyone practicing it since Jaehaerys united the Seven Kingdoms under one set of laws. Whether the Targaryens who weren't kings would be above this hypothetical law is another issue. But it's not ridiculous to suggest that polygamy is illegal, and telling someone their argument is a waste of space is pretty dickish. Especially since pretty much everything written on this forum is basically a waste of time while we await the next book. 

[Lord Varys]

Guys, since we are going on and on and on about polygamy I've decided to cast some additional light on the Maegor-Alys issue. I've checked my notes on 'The Sons of the Dragon' reading, and there are are a bunch of important points that are missing in Yandel's version. Now, you can say that this is all out of TWoIaF because 'George changed his mind' but this doesn't really seem to be the case. Ran and Linda gave a condensed version of events, and Yandel therefore lacks detail, he doesn't tell another version. Anyway, it is a good basis for a discussion so I see no need to not give this in a paraphrased fashion here.

 

1. Maegor proclaims that Ceryse is barren when he takes Lady Alys as his second wife. That suggests that he replaces the wife who cannot give him any heirs with a wife he thinks can do that. Ceryse's status as a barren woman is also the reason why Aenys later has Septon Murmison try to make her fertile so that Maegor see the error of his ways and return to his lawful wife. What makes Maegor snap and do this thing is, according to Gyldayn, possibly/likely the fact that Alyssa Velaryon gave Aenys yet another child earlier the same year, the unfortunate Princess Vaella who died in the cradle.

 

2. The castle septon on Dragonstone refused to officiate at the wedding which is why Visenya had do it in the Valyrian rite by blood and fire. Aenys neither knew about this wedding, nor was he present or gave his permission, which would constitute a very grievous offense done by Maegor to his royal brother. It states that the brothers quarreled bitterly thereafter - and we have to keep in mind that this is Aenys we are talking about, a man who was known to be nice and friendly to everyone.

 

3. Ceryse's father, Lord Hightower, complains to the King, and demands that Maegor set Alys aside. But the High Septon, Ceryse's uncle, goes much farther. He denounces the marriage as 'sin and fornication' and refers to Alys as 'this whore of Harroway', and announces that no true son of the Seven would ever bow to such. At first glance one might assume that this is personal judgment of the High Septon due to the fact that his niece's honor is besmirched here, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

4. Maegor shrugs all that off, pointing out that his father had married both his sisters. But the important thing is that he claims that 'the scriptures of the Faith might rule lesser men but not the blood of the dragon'. This establishes, I think, that doctrines of the Faith do indeed condemn/outlaw/forbid the practice of bigamy and polygamy. Maegor himself acknowledges as much, but considers himself and the other members of House Targaryen to be above the laws of the gods as just as the Conqueror, presumably, was.

 

5. Those words of Maegor open a deep wound between House Targaryen and the Faith, a wound no words of Aenys can close again. Many pious Lords of the Realm condemn the marriage between Maegor and Alys, and refer to her openly as 'Maegor's whore'.

 

6. In 40 AC, Aenys - who is still 'vexed and angry' - gives Maegor a choice. Either put Alys Harroway aside and return to Ceryse Hightower or suffer five years of exile. The fact that the King demands Maegor return to Ceryse suggests that they no longer live together at that point.

 

7. Maegor chooses exile, and takes Alys, Balerion, and Blackfyre with him to Pentos. Ceryse remains abandoned in KL, and Aenys has Murmison, the new Hand, lay his hands on her belly each night to try to make her fertile because he hopes that Maegor might repent his folly and return to his lawful wife if she could bear him any children. Ceryse grows soon tired of that crap, and departs for Oldtown and her father, effectively ending the marriage for good.

 

I think we can reasonably deduce from that that in the eyes of the Faith and the High Septon polygamy was, in fact, not valid or acceptable at this time. And King Aenys himself didn't approve of it either. Any other less forgiving King may have taken Maegor's head for this offense, or may have at least separated Maegor and Alys by force. But it seems like he assumes that Maegor would never choose exile. As I see it, there is no indication that Aenys would have allowed Maegor and Alys to live together after they had returned in 45 AC. Presumably, Aenys wouldn't have allowed Maegor to come back at all since he had actually taken Alys with him into exile, throwing the whole thing in his face yet again.

 

But Aenys is secondary there. The important thing is that the Faith does allow or condone polygamy.

 

What we have, I think, on polygamy is two precedents set by kings that it works - Aegon and Maegor. Although if you want to go into great detail the Faith may have twisted Aegon into a guy who did not really practice polygamy since Rhaenys died before Maegor was ever born, so most of his time Aegon actually had only one wife, Visenya, and her only son was only born after the other wife had died. Thus Aegon would have bend the rules but not marched directly over them as Maegor later did.

We learn that Maegor's other four marriages later on during his reign contributed greatly to the Faith Militant's campaigns against him, and especially the black brides thing would have been crucial to the gestation of the final movement to cast him down. We don't know any details about that, though.

 

But we can safely say that the Faith and Jaehaerys I did not have to come to an agreement or make a special law outlawing polygamy. The scriptures of the Faith already did that, and one assumes that no Targaryen king thereafter ever challenged the Faith on the polygamy issue. Which makes sense, since polygamy was, unlike incest, an exception even among the dragonlords of Valyria. There was no reason to continue it, nor was there any practical purpose to it connected to the dragons (unlike with incest). Not to mention the problems Aegon's two wives had caused for the succession.

[Mithras]

Why? I still think it's probably illegal. We're certainly never told it's legal, and we have no examples of anyone practicing it since Jaehaerys united the Seven Kingdoms under one set of laws. Whether the Targaryens who weren't kings would be above this hypothetical law is another issue. But it's not ridiculous to suggest that polygamy is illegal, and telling someone their argument is a waste of space is pretty dickish. Especially since pretty much everything written on this forum is basically a waste of time while we await the next book. 

 

Polygamy was not illegal before Jaehaerys nor do we have any reason to believe that Jaehaerys made it illegal. If people hardly practice it, why should anyone make a law to ban it, especially considering that the powerful men avoid making restrictive laws as much as possible per the famous SSM of George?

[HexMachina]

[mod] cut out the remarks about people being "butthurt" just because they don't share your opinion. furthermore, there is no reason to discourage discussion on a discussion board. It is not a "waste of page space" if it is relevant to the topic of the thread [/mod]

[Ygrain]

Seriously, if Lyanna is his legal wife, what is the point to run off and hide? Isnt it natural to have a child with your legal wife and enjoy the blessing of all your family and the whole world?  

Apparently, you haven't read a thing of what people have been trying to explain you for like two days.

 

I'm out.

[King of the Narrow Sea]

You are still making an assumption that Selmy would not ever be assigned to Rhaegar or was never at DS.
Also, Rhaegar still apparently lived at Court at least some of the time given he still had a bedroom, or quarters at KL.
Maybe Aerys deliberately assigned Rhaegar a KG that HE could trust, rather than Rhaegars best friend, either way, it's a fictional character put into a place for the purpose of being the authors voice.

 

We know he had a bed there because Rhaenys was pulled out from under it. But that's after he returned from being with Lyanna and was leading a war effort from King's Landing, and wouldn't have been spending any time on Dragonstone. So not evidence that Rhaegar maintained a bedroom in King's Landing all the time, just that he had one after he came back from the the TOJ at least.

 

I agree GRRM put it there for a reason. Due to the World Book though I'm of the belief that Barristan is saying second hand knowledge there though now and that he himself didn't know the details of what he told Dany.

 

 

And the fact that Selmys memories are consistent with every other character is also evidence. Are you going to call into question the validity of every character whose information you don't like?

 

It has nothing to do with not liking the information. I'm calling into question what Barristan said in ADWD about Rhaegar and Elia's marriage because we got new information in the World Book that to me makes Barristan's knowledge invalidated. The reason I don't think that Barristan should know what he says is the same reason why I don't think that Ned married Catelyn because he was Brandon's younger brother and that's what custom decreed, that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, that Bloodraven died some point after becoming Lord Commander, etc. I update my beliefs when we get new information and the World Book's account of how Rhaegar and Elia lived together on Dragonstone and not in King's Landing seemingly invalidated Barristan knowing any real details of Rhaegar and Elia's marriage IMO.