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R+L=J v.154


HexMachina

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Oh how interesting more marriage. It's really overrated you know. Ok, skim, skin, skim, marriage, marriage, marriage, Meera and Wyla? Hold on now. The significance of the two characters can be seen in the color green, like the Greenmen, that's all I really need to say, speak to JStar for further information on colors.

 

Lets talk about something new, lets talk about Jon's name, it is far more interesting than a repetitive discussion where everyone agrees to disagree because the topic is a variable who's story contains a wide variance of options which people place an expected value upon. The author who has yet to actually write and publish this part of the story has left a collectively exhaustive amount of possibilities, no matter which way you cut it, neither side has enough information for anything more than assumption, presumption and all the other umptions.

 

I on the other hand have something interesting and non repetitive. So of course, it's a bit outside the box, it's a bit creative, it's a whole lot of what I always do.

 

Why Jon Snow? He created the name and like many authors something usually inspires it, there is usually meaning to it. It's a great name, it's my favorite in the book, and it has that nice iconic feel to it. Look closely, what do you see? It's right on the tip of your nose. Does it matter? I think it actually does, Jon has more than one name, and I don't mean Targayren. If I may and I am going to anyway, so just bare with me. We have talked about many of martins inspirations over the years, Greek Mythology, Mythology Shakespeare, King Arthur, Fairy Tails, Fantasy, his favorite authors, classical literature, you name it, we have explored his work. Now I am going to use a lot of that. On another thread along time ago we discussed Romeo and Juliet, the reason? Well there near exact quotes from Romeo and Juliet in the book, so I am going to start there.

 

  "What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."

 

What is in a name? Better yet what is in Jon's name? Of course there you see a Rose theme. Well covered ground don't need to cover much depth here with roses, needles to say a blue rose. We can all agree weather it's the book or the show, it's very symbolic of Jon, and his parents of course but we are talking about Jon and his name. The series has a name also, it's called A Song of Ice and Fire. Now this name has things hidden in it as well, we know this from the author. Of course you have the primary themes, but the name just like "Dying of the light" was inspired by a poem as most of you know. "A Poem of Fire and Ice" of course Martin inverted the elements, I mean why not wouldn't be the first time he did that. Who wrote it?  Robert Frost one of Martins favorite writers. Have you guessed Jon's name yet? It's really simple. Fairy Tails, sometimes Jon has little sort of homages to fairy tails. We have talked about this, "Lord Snow White and his Seven Black Brothers, Cinderfella and his soon to be Glass Sword Dawn(Pale as Milkglass), Little red and the big bad Wolf (Yiggy and Jon). They are really just plays on them and little themes here and there. Like the real origins of Jon's Story begin with a Woods Witch, seen that in a few Fairy Tails, because that is where it really starts for him, that's what leads to his birth. Got it yet? Final clue, have you ever heard of a Jack Frost Rose? It's a real flower.

 

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8pHY6d9V1BgA0tUunIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTIyc24yNmh1BHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAMxMTU4OWZhZmRlMmZiZGRkNjIyMzJkYmFiMWZiNDU3ZgRncG9zAzEEaXQDYmluZw--?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3DJack%2BFrost%2Brose%26fr%3Dyhs-mozilla-001%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D1&w=675&h=720&imgurl=media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F05%2Fe3%2F7f%2F05e37fc61915643c2305c1a7fe02b403.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpinterest.com%2Fpin%2F328973947750393913%2F&size=80.5KB&name=%3Cb%3Ejack+frost+rose%3C%2Fb%3E&p=Jack+Frost+rose&oid=11589fafde2fbddd62232dbab1fb457f&fr2=piv-web&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&tt=%3Cb%3Ejack+frost+rose%3C%2Fb%3E&b=0&ni=21&no=1&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=11c7r53vg&sigb=149ca7nbm&sigi=12d1gbblf&sigt=10m6bn99t&sign=10m6bn99t&.crumb=LzEddGPYN1o&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&fr2=piv-web&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla

 

You see Jon's can be called Jacks, and Snow is close enough to frost to make your nose itch. Jon's actual name is Jack Frost and you know what he is associated with. Bit of stretch, I don't actually think so, but you might, and that's okay. But food for thought none the less, and yes this is in fact on topic as the rose aspect would clearly tie Jon (Jack) to his parents which are the worst kept secret ever. Now you really don't need all that to look at Jon and go a Jon can be a Jack, and Snow and Frost are very close. Which is what I did and then I looked for support, starting with the rose and working backwards from there.

 

Editing this in, sorry forgot one last thing. The Winter rose from the books, is described as pale as frost. Ok now I am done, and yes I know.

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Do we know that Rhaegar didn't love Elia? Barristan said he was very fond of her when asked by Dany if Rhaegar married for love or duty and Dany (and most fans) seems to have ran with it to mean that he didn't love her. But this is how Jorah describes his first wife
 
 
He seems to have been just fond of the woman he married for duty, but he still says that he loved her in some way. Rhaegar could have been the same with Elia. Wasn't in love with her, but loved her after a fashion like Jorah loved his wife.
 
Plus Barristan's quote is outdated really and probably not still valid. In the World Book we learned that Rhaegar and Elia didn't live in King's Landing but on Dragonstone. Barristan would only ever be seeing Rhaegar and Elia on social visits to King's Landing (like when they presented Rhaenys to Aerys and Rhaella). He wouldn't see them often enough to know how their marriage was like because he'd only ever see them every now and then whereas the quote from ADWD speaks more to Barristan having seen them every day as that's what would have happened if they lived in King's Landing as was the original plan. We know that's the original plan because Barristan in ADWD speaks of Rhaegar having his own secrets in the Red Keep. But now we learned that he did not live there so Rhaegar can't really be keeping secrets in a place he did not live in. I think the information itself, that Rhaegar was very fond of Elia, is still valid, I just don't think the source itself is.

Is there any reason for Selmy to deny that Rhaegars marriage was a marriage based on Love if it had been?
Selmy was a fan of Elias, and he is probably hiding more than he is telling Dany for fear of hurting her.

Also, where are you getting the notion that Selmy was never on DS?

As for Jorah, he liked his first wife as a friend, but he loved his second wife to destruction.
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There is no evidence that either God nor King must endorse a polygamous marriage for it to be a valid marriage. There is evidence that shows it may be politically unwise or undesirable, at certain times, but none that once done, it was invalid without the King's or a God's approval.

 

Other than Daemon Blackfyre asking Daeron II if he could take a second wife and Daeron II saying no.

 

Is there any reason for Selmy to deny that Rhaegars marriage was a marriage based on Love if it had been?
Selmy was a fan of Elias, and he is probably hiding more than he is telling Dany for fear of hurting her.

Also, where are you getting the notion that Selmy was never on DS?

As for Jorah, he liked his first wife as a friend, but he loved his second wife to destruction.

 

There's no reason for Selmy to deny it. I'm just thinking that with the World Book information that Selmy shouldn't actually know any of that anymore seeing as Selmy and Rhaegar wouldn't have been interacting much given that Rhaegar did not live in the Red Keep where Selmy was. They'd only ever see each other occasionally so Barristan shouldn't know that Rhaegar didn't love Elia unless it was always like super awkward between Rhaegar and Elia at Christmas time when they visited Rhaegar's folks or something.

 

As to Selmy visiting Rhaegar on Dragonstone, why would he? He's Aerys' KG. He'd only go to Dragonstone if Aerys sent him there which there's no real reason to do. And again that's not really often enough to know that Rhaegar didn't love Elia but was only very fond of her.

 

IMO with the World Book telling us that Rhaegar and Elia didn't live in King's Landing that Barristan isn't really a good source anymore for what was said in ADWD. The information itself is probably still valid, but now that it's known that Rhaegar and Elia lived in a different city than Barristan did I'd feel more comfortable if the information came from like the steward of Dragonstone in those days. Someone who lived with them and would have actually seen that Rhaegar didn't love her. Barristan's quote IMO seems at best to be second hand information, if not completely outdated

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We don't actually know that Maegor's marriage to Alys Harroway was considered valid, nor is there any reason to believe that any of his children by Alys would have been considered legitimate under the laws of Westeros.  

 

After he married Alys, Meagor went into exile in Pentos until his brother, King Aenys died.  After Aenys died, Maegor returned riding the largest dragon in the world and usurped the crown.  The Grand Maester who protested that Maegor's accession was a violation of Andal custom had his head lopped off by Blackfyre, Maegor took the throne by force, and he used force to enable him to practice polygamy.  But his rule was never generally accepted as legitimate, and one of the reasons the Faith rose up against him was because of the polygamy.  He never had any children by his many wives, so we don't know if any children he might have from a polygamous marriage would have been considered bastards or legitimate.

 

And it is pretty clear that a king cannot do whatever he wants.  Case in point:  Viserys I named his daughter, Rhaenyra, heir to the Iron Throne.  But when Viserys died, Rhaenyra's younger brother was crowned Aegon II.  The argument supporting Aegon was "the hallowed Andal tradition wherein the rights of a trueborn son always came before the rights of a mere daughter."  In other words, Viserys I tried to flout hallowed Andal traditions and he failed.  

 

If Rhaegar actually tried to take a second wife while Elia was still living, there is no question that would flout another hallowed Andal tradition.  And, unlike Maegor and Viserys I, Rhaegar came along at a time when the Targaryens were at their weakest.  Under those circumstances, it is difficult to believe that even Aerys, let alone Rhaegar, could authorize a polygamous marriage and expect that the lords of the Seven Kingdoms would accept any resulting child as legitimate.  

Aegon's son Aenys was the child of his second wife according to WOIAF, and he was accepted as legitimate, or the claim of every king since Aenys except Maegor would be called into question. Maegor was sent into exile, but he was allowed to keep his second wife. 

 

Aegon II and his line lost the IT, and it was taken by Rhaenyra's line. Rhaenyra's claim was accepted as legitimate or she would have had no supporters and taken KL. A feudal king has limitations true, but no war was seldom just over polygamy. 

 

The Blackfyre supporters claimed that Aegon IV promised Daemon to have Daenerys as a second wife alongside Rohanne, which suggests lords would have accepted polygamy. Before that, Sharra Arryn and Argella Durrandon were offered as third wives to Aegon I, and both parties followed the Seven and were royalty. There is precedent for the child of a second wife being accepted as legitimate with Aenys. Rhaegar had precedent for doing so, and polygamy was never truly abolished. On top of that, the Faith had been demilitarized almost three centuries ago with the HS being a puppet, so no Faith rebellion over Rhaegar's decision. Besides, Rhaegar was pretty popular among the lords and commons alike, and could have earned a pass.  

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Good point.

Not really. It completely ignores that the issue with Duncan was that he married a commoner. His children with Jenny would have been unacceptable for succession. A daughter of Lord Paragon is hardly an unacceptable match.

 

Plus, Rhaegar intended to make changes after his return from the Trident, so he definitely wasn't removed from the succession line.

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Aegon's son Aenys was the child of his second wife according to WOIAF, and he was accepted as legitimate, or the claim of every king since Aenys except Maegor would be called into question. Maegor was sent into exile, but he was allowed to keep his second wife. 

 

Aegon II and his line lost the IT, and it was taken by Rhaenyra's line. Rhaenyra's claim was accepted as legitimate or she would have had no supporters and taken KL. A feudal king has limitations true, but no war was seldom just over polygamy. 

 

The Blackfyre supporters claimed that Aegon IV promised Daemon to have Daenerys as a second wife alongside Rohanne, which suggests lords would have accepted polygamy. Before that, Sharra Arryn and Argella Durrandon were offered as third wives to Aegon I, and both parties followed the Seven and were royalty. There is precedent for the child of a second wife being accepted as legitimate with Aenys. Rhaegar had precedent for doing so, and polygamy was never truly abolished. On top of that, the Faith had been demilitarized almost three centuries ago with the HS being a puppet, so no Faith rebellion over Rhaegar's decision. Besides, Rhaegar was pretty popular among the lords and commons alike, and could have earned a pass.  

 

No he's not

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It was accepted as being real outside of Westoros but not within it. If you are told to leave the country for what you did then that is a very clear indicator that what you did is not allowed in the country you did it in. Aenys exiling Maegor proves that Aenys did not allow polygamy in Westoros not that the marriage was a valid one within Westoros. Maegor's polygamy only became legal when he usurped the throne and made it legal himself. Before that it's an illegal marriage in Westoros as the King kicked him out of the country for doing it. That shows that polygamy is not allowed in his country.

 
Aenys action does not prove he did not allow polygamy; it only proves he did not approve of this second marriage. He has good reason for doing so, including his own right to choose to whom Maegor is married, and the impact that marriage has on his first marriage, but that does not in the least prove he outlawed polygamy. Aenys may also have not wanted to push the subject with the Faith given his own propensity for trying to please all sides, but that issue was put to rest with Maegor's rule. Maegor won the war against the Faith Militant and ended the ability of the Faith to raise armies against the monarchy up to Cersei's stupid action allowing them to once again do so. If a Targaryen monarch wished to have a second marriage from the time of Maegor to the time of Aerys II they could have done so without the Faith being able to stop them. The idea the Targaryens for some reason gave up this right after having won the war with the Faith, just isn't supported by any evidence.
 
Why Targaryens after Maegor didn't practice polygamy is an interesting question, but it isn't because they outlawed it or gave up the right from pressure from the disarmed Faith. I suspect it has more to do with the fact polygamy was never common among the Targaryens, and that they found single marriage alliances more useful in binding the rest of Westeros to them. The reward of binding a house in marriage is much more powerful if one is assured there is no other house that can claim the throne. But I'm inclined to believe the most important reason is that for most Targaryens this was something of an aberration that only the Conqueror and his sisters did in recent memory. Aenys quite likely looked at Maegor's second marriage as not only a usurpation of his right to name Maegor's brides, but also a presumptuous move to take on the airs of their father. That would be my guess, but the belief of Ser Jorah and others that Daenerys could have two husbands argues that not only is there no evidence the practice of polygamy was ever outlawed, but that it was still possible.
 
But all of this misses the most important point, and that is whether or not Rhaegar believed it possible. I think his discussion with Elia about the dragon having three heads points to his belief of the need to recreate in his children Aegon and his sisters once again in order to fulfill the prophecy. The absence of polygamous marriage after Maegor has nothing to do with what he thought was necessary. What Rhaegar thought is the point, not Aenys's anger towards Maegor for marrying someone he didn't approve of.
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No he's not

 

Can't see how one can argue Rhaenys isn't Aegon's second wife. That's clearly stated. So, I'm assuming you're agreeing with the rumors Aegon is not the real father of Aenys, right? Not sure how one can be so sure of that belief. Could you clarify?

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Can't see how one can argue Rhaenys isn't Aegon's second wife. That's clearly stated. So, I'm assuming you're agreeing with the rumors Aegon is not the real father of Aenys, right? Not sure how one can be so sure of that belief. Could you clarify?

 

Because she's not

 

 The Aegon who is known to history as Aegon the Conqueror and Aegon the Dragon was born on Dragonstone in 27 BC. He was the only son, and second child, of Aerion, Lord of Dragonstone, and Lady Valaena of House Velaryon, herself half-Targaryen on her mother's side. Aegon had two trueborn siblings; an elder sister, Visenya, and a younger sister, Rhaenys. It had long been the custom amongst the dragonlords of Valyria to wed brother to sister, to keep the bloodlines pure, but Aegon took both his sisters to bride. By tradition, he was expected to wed only his older sister, Visenya; the inclusion of Rhaenys as a second wife was unusual, though not without precedent. It was said by some that Aegon wed Visenya out of duty and Rhaenys out of desire.

 

Rhaenys isn't Aegon's second wife as Aegon married them both together in the same ceremony. Rhaenys is a second wife only in that he married two women. But she is not really a second wife as that would mean that Aegon had married Visenya and then later took a second wife in Rhaenys. He did not do that as he had only one marriage for both of them.

 

Therefore Aenys is not an example of a second wife's son being considered legitimate as the poster was saying. He's just a regular example of a firstborn son being legitimate. By marrying both Visenya and Rhaenys at the same time there was no second wife. He just had two and the one who birthed him a son first is the one who'll be the mother of his heir like any other marriage.

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Because she's not
 
 
Rhaenys isn't Aegon's second wife as Aegon married them both together in the same ceremony. Rhaenys is a second wife only in that he married two women. But she is not really a second wife as that would mean that Aegon had married Visenya and then later took a second wife in Rhaenys. He did not do that as he had only one marriage for both of them.
 
Therefore Aenys is not an example of a second wife's son being considered legitimate as the poster was saying. He's just a regular example of a firstborn son being legitimate. By marrying both Visenya and Rhaenys at the same time there was no second wife. He just had two and the one who birthed him a son first is the one who'll be the mother of his heir like any other marriage.

First, the quote doesn't say the two sisters married Aegon in the same ceremony, You are reading that into the quote in question. But even if they did it is irrelevant to the point of a child of a polygamous marriage being considered by the Targaryens as a rightful heir. Both Aenys and Maegor are considered heirs to Aegon's throne. Maegor usurps his half-brother's children's claim but there is no doubt he still has a claim.
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Whether Rhaenys was technically a second wife or not is irrelevant. The passage quoted makes it clear that she was considered to be the second wife.

 

"The inclusion of Rhaenys as a second wife" is saying that there were two brides there, not that she was considered his second wife.

 

First, the quote doesn't say the two sisters married Aegon in the same ceremony, You are reading that into the quote in question. But even if they did it is irrelevant to the point of a child of a polygamous marriage being considered by the Targaryens as a rightful heir. Both Aenys and Maegor are considered heirs to Aegon's throne. Maegor usurps his half-brother's children's claim but there is no doubt he still has a claim.

 

The quote says he took both his sisters to bride and that Rhaenys was an inclusion to the marriage he was expected to have with Visenya by custom. Therefore IMO he has to have married them in the same ceremony to have married both but included Rhaenys into his marriage with Visenya. Otherwise it would just say that he married Visenya, and then later married Rhaenys. It does not do this so to me the only possible solution is that he married both at the same time.

 

Whether you accept that reading or not though, by your logic you must deny the reverse reading that Aegon married Visenya and then later married Rhaenys as also being a person's belief as it never says he married one, then the other. That would be somebody reading that into the books. So at best if you don't accept my reading, you can't accept another reading that says he married them at two different times. Your position would have to be that we don't know when he married Rhaenys.

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Rhaegar had a conclusive clinical report that another pregnancy would kill Elia and yet he wanted to have more children.

 

Do you think he would prefer killing Elia by impregnating her and then taking another wife or were there other options which didnot include killing Elia?

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"The inclusion of Rhaenys as a second wife" is saying that there were two brides there, not that she was considered his second wife.

 

 

The quote says he took both his sisters to bride and that Rhaenys was an inclusion to the marriage he was expected to have with Visenya by custom. Therefore IMO he has to have married them in the same ceremony to have married both but included Rhaenys into his marriage with Visenya. Otherwise it would just say that he married Visenya, and then later married Rhaenys. It does not do this so to me the only possible solution is that he married both at the same time.

 

Whether you accept that reading or not though, by your logic you must deny the reverse reading that Aegon married Visenya and then later married Rhaenys as also being a person's belief as it never says he married one, then the other. That would be somebody reading that into the books. So at best if you don't accept my reading, you can't accept another reading that says he married them at two different times. Your position would have to be that we don't know when he married Rhaenys.

 

You sure do love arguing technicalities, don't you, MarkG Khal Who Rode West King of the Narrow Sea?

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Rhaegar had a conclusive clinical report that another pregnancy would kill Elia and yet he wanted to have more children.
 
Do you think he would prefer killing Elia by impregnating her and then taking another wife or were there other options which didnot include killing Elia?

I seem to recall the statement was that Elia could not have another child, not that a third pregnancy/birth would kill her. Perhaps she was no longer able to conceive.
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I seem to recall the statement was that Elia could not have another child, not that a third pregnancy/birth would kill her. Perhaps she was no longer able to conceive.

 

One way or the other, it makes a solid motive to set her aside by some mechanism, or take another wife.

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Rhaegar had a conclusive clinical report that another pregnancy would kill Elia and yet he wanted to have more children.

 

Do you think he would prefer killing Elia by impregnating her and then taking another wife or were there other options which didnot include killing Elia?

 

Making babies does not require a person to be wed to the babymaker as Robert Baratheon proved with the many fishwives, farmer's daughters, tavern wenches, and whores who bore his 16 children. If Rhaegar wanted another child he just has to impregnate a woman, not marry them. You're starting with the default position that Jon was born Jon Targaryen and therefore Rhaegar had to have married Lyanna. Myself I prefer to simplify things and just start at the beginning which the title of this thread conveniently simplifies that R+L=J. You don't have to think that Rhaegar had to have married Lyanna to have fathered a child with her unless you're looking for something beyond R+L=J.

 

 

You sure do love arguing technicalities, don't you, MarkG Khal Who Rode West King of the Narrow Sea?

 

What's the technicality here? You made an incorrect statement. Do I need to be whoever the hell MarkG Khal Who Rode West is to point out that you said something that wasn't correct?

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Making babies does not require a person to be wed to the babymaker as Robert Baratheon proved with the many fishwives, farmer's daughters, tavern wenches, and whores who bore his 16 children. If Rhaegar wanted another child he just has to impregnate a woman, not marry them. You're starting with the default position that Jon was born Jon Targaryen and therefore Rhaegar had to have married Lyanna. Myself I prefer to simplify things and just start at the beginning which the title of this thread conveniently simplifies that R+L=J. You don't have to think that Rhaegar had to have married Lyanna to have fathered a child with her unless you're looking for something beyond R+L=J.

 

Except we do not know any Targaryens fathering bastards since Aegon IV.

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