~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I agree with your sentiment that it wasn't fair for Cat to believe Jon is Ned's son all these years. But, I have had to concede to the fact that it was the safest thing for Ned to do. I think Cat could have been trusted with the information, but also burdened by it. Jon is simply too young to have been passed off as Brandon's son. Catelyn loved Brandon btw. It would have hurt her immensely to believe that she had to face her dead love's bastard every day of her life. That would truly have been cruel and Ned Stark is not cruel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Why would saying Jon was Brandon's be better? Brandon is the elder son, it'd be worse being his bastard. It'd make Jon an even greater threat to her trueborn children. It wouldn't. It would hurt Catelyn immeasurably to know that Brandon, whom she loved, fathered a bastard and that his brother is making her live with the child as a constant reminder. Ned is not a cruel person. Again, this would be out of character for him and I don't think Brandon would approve either. Ned wouldn't dishonor his brother with this lie. He would much rather have his own honor questioned than that of his sister or brother. Ned is just that noble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsyao Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Because that would stain Lyanna's honour, saying she had a child with "someone". Do not think Lyanna has any honour, so stopping question her about that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A spoon of knife and fork Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Premature baby can be two pounds. Full term baby can be 10 pounds. Do you have any kids? Any 3 month period is obvious and has nothing to do with physical size. Also I think at least 6 months - 1 year are needed to explain Brandon being Jons dad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 He did not need to tell cat jon is son of rhaegar. He could just say he is son of lyanna with somebody else, for example, arthur dayne, whent or even an unknown servant. They all dead and gone. Arthur would forgive him for the sake of rhaegar. He still can ask cat to keep this secret from everybody else for sake of stark family. So the honor of lyanna or arthur or whent would not be harmed. I think Cat would respect him on this. But cat would be much less bitter and also jon would be much better taken care of. It is a win-win situation, isn it? I mean only told Cat. He still can tell everybody else jon is his bastard. So nothing more dangerous here. If he said Jon was Lyanna's son, it really wouldn't be difficult to guess who the father really was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Catelyn loved Brandon btw. It would have hurt her immensely to believe that she had to face her dead love's bastard every day of her life. That would truly have been cruel and Ned Stark is not cruel. It was far crueller that she had to think she had to live looking at her husband's bastard, husband she really loved, present tense, who supposedly cheated on her when they were married already, and who apparently still had a strong attachment to this mysterious woman after all those years to the point he wouldn't even talk about her to his wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 It was far crueller that she had to think she had to live looking at her husband's bastard, husband she really loved, present tense, who supposedly cheated on her when they were married already, and who apparently still had a strong attachment to this mysterious woman after all those years to the point he wouldn't even talk about her to his wife. I disagree with this. Catelyn hardly thought of Ned while he was at war. She was at River Run with their new son. She was hurt when she went to Winterfell and found Ned their with Jon. She didn't love Ned, she grew to love him. Spare me. Catelyn had it pretty good. If it wasn't for her ego believing that Petyr Baelish could be trusted because he loved her as a girl, Ned might have survived King's Landing. Also, it was only Jon's presence at Winterfell that bothered Cat not that Ned cheated on her. She would have forgiven him any number of bastards if they weren't at Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Many Faced Dude Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 it seems promises are not that important to most people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Viserys Targaryen IV Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 He did not need to tell cat jon is son of rhaegar. He could just say he is son of lyanna with somebody else, for example, arthur dayne, whent or even an unknown servant. They all dead and gone. Arthur would forgive him for the sake of rhaegar. He still can ask cat to keep this secret from everybody else for sake of stark family. So the honor of lyanna or arthur or whent would not be harmed. I think Cat would respect him on this. But cat would be much less bitter and also jon would be much better taken care of. It is a win-win situation, isn it? I mean only told Cat. He still can tell everybody else jon is his bastard. So nothing more dangerous here. Because IF someone knew that Jon was the son of Lyanna the most likely candidate is Rhaegar (though probably believed to be by rape) He didnt tell Cat because he could not trust that she would take that secret to the grave. Having Jon oin Winterfell was high treason against his King. That secret put Ned, Cat, his family and every Stark descendant in jeopardy. Cat would sell that secret out in a minute if she thought it would save Robb and his right to be Lord of Winterfell, not to mention her other children. At the very least she would have demanded that Jon be sent away to protect Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marsyao Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I wonder why everybody would dismiss the possiblity that Jon is indeed Ned's bastard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I disagree with this. Catelyn hardly thought of Ned while he was at war. She was at River Run with their new son. She was hurt when she went to Winterfell and found Ned their with Jon. She didn't love Ned, she grew to love him. Spare me. Catelyn had it pretty good. If it wasn't for her ego believing that Petyr Baelish could be trusted because he loved her as a girl, Ned might have survived King's Landing. Spare you what? The facts? It's not like Ned revealed the truth to Catelyn once they really fell in love with each other. Saying that she would be more bothered, 15 years after Brandon's death, by Brandon fucking someone while they were betrothed is ridiculous. It's not like she was ever deeply in love with Brandon anyway, she was attracted to him and liked him, and that was long time ago. Ned claimed Jon was his son because he thought that was the only sure way to protect him. And what the fuck does trusting Littlefinger have to do with it? (Ego or not ego - and I'm baffled by your idea that trusting Petyr was somehow due to her ego (?!). She trusted him because he was her childhood friend. If anything, her belief he could be trusted shows how little ego she had - she assumed he had taken her rejection as a normal person would and got on with his life - she didn't realize he had been obsessing unhealthily over her his entire life.) Also, it was only Jon's presence at Winterfell that bothered Cat not that Ned cheated on her. She would have forgiven him any number of bastards if they weren't at Winterfell. That's bullshit and you know it. If she hadn't been bothered by Ned supposedly cheating, she'd have no problem looking at Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 That's bullshit and you know it. If she hadn't been bothered by Ned supposedly cheating, she'd have no problem looking at Jon. Cat would disagree with you there Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs. He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence. ... Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. (aGoT, Cat 2) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 it seems promises are not that important to most people To be fair, we don't know for sure what Ned promised Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Ned didn't trust Cat, nor had any reasons to. They got married, were apart from one year and then, he returned with a baby. The best for them was to say it was his bastard. By saying it was Lyanna's, that would have caused so many questions. Imagine Cat had been told Jon was Lyanna's with Arthur. She would be wondering why Ned doesn't take him with the Daynes to be raised. Or the Whents or whoever he said Lyanna had sex with. Then, she would resent him for be around even though he didn't have to be, as he had a "real" family. Instead, he's staining theirs with his presence. Also, remember that when Ned returned to Winterfell, he did with the knowledge of Robert supporting the murder of Rhaegar's kids. He knew that, had Robert found out about Jon, he would be asking for his head as well as for Ned's (he would be committing betrayal). By lying Cat, he feels she's protected as she won't ever find herself in a position in which she could tell anyone the "truth". There's a point where Ned thinks to himself that some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love. There's is literally only one way to keep something secret, and that is to tell absolutely no-one. Remember, Ned kept the secret for his reasons, not for our reasons. Ned was completely justified in keeping it to himself. If Ned even comes close to admitting Lyanna had a child, there are only three possible fathers. Even telling Cat would be a danger. She already resented Jon and the threat he could potentially pose to her children. How much more was she going to resent the son of Rhaegar Targaryen/Arthur Dayne/Great Uncle Oswell? Ned doesn't really know Cat well enough to trust her at first and by the time he does, it will be nearly impossible to tell her the truth. Imagine... Ned: Catelyn, I must speak with you about Jon. Cat, bristling: What about your bastard? Ned: Well, I uh...I've been lying to you all these years. He's not my son. Cat: He's not your son? That's wonderfu...wait, you've been lying to me? Ned: Well you see my sister... Cat: Leave her out of this. You lied to me?? All these years??? You let me think you loved another woman... Ned: Oh I did, I just never had a child with her. Cat: Not helping, Ned! What else have you lied about? Ned: Nothing else. Cat: Why should I believe you? You admitted you've been lying to me for our entire marriage. Ned: But, I didn't know you when we wed. Cat: And all this time since? Ned: But kitty-cat! Cat: Don't you kitty-cat me! You're sleeping in the godswood tonight! Basically these sum up some good reasons not to tell. Catelyn loved Brandon btw. It would have hurt her immensely to believe that she had to face her dead love's bastard every day of her life. That would truly have been cruel and Ned Stark is not cruel. Did she? She was marrying him out of Duty. When did they fall in love? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 To be fair, we don't know for sure what Ned promised Lyanna. We do - we have two important instances when Ned remembers Lyanna pleading and the promise(s): when Sansa pleads with him to protect Lady, and when he promises the young prostitute to take care of Barra's wellbeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 We do - we have two important instances when Ned remembers Lyanna pleading and the promise(s): when Sansa pleads with him to protect Lady, and when he promises the young prostitute to take care of Barra's wellbeing. Fair enough, but we don't know if he promised to keep Jon's parentage secret for anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drekinn Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 "Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share even with those you love and trust." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASOIAF_Ali Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 I wonder why everybody would dismiss the possiblity that Jon is indeed Ned's bastard? I haven't dismissed this idea personally. I know R+L=J is probably true but until it is confirmed by GRRM there is still room for some doubt IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YunoGasai Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Cat would disagree with you there you misunderstood. Cat was prepared to overlook a dozen bastards for Ned. Hell, she's raised that way. But that does not make it any easier. Just bec. you're prepared for your husband to be a cheater doesn't mean that its easier to have his bastards flung on your face though. That it wouldn't hurt as hell. purple-eyes was right. Catelyn would have understood her husband and would never have treated Jon the way she did had he told her about Jon's real parentage. She's prepared for a dozen bastards of Ned, why not a bastard of his sister's? It's not like he fucked her sister dammit. Catelyn would even help Jon have a better childhood. But again, people don't blame Ned for his stupid decisions. They blame Cat. Or Sansa. Or someone else. Brrrrhhh. You're a woman, you should have understood Cat that whatever she might say, a woman would expect loyalty from her husband. And a husband who's openly keeping secrets will never help you or your marriage, or the child you were suppose to protect. Ned and Cat are an almost perfect couple with an almost perfect family. The only wedge against them was Jon. All bec. of Ned's stupid pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YunoGasai Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 Cat wants nothing to do with Jon so no I don't think that she deserved information like that. Uhm Excuse me. Your husband just cheated on you and you don't deserve to know the reason. Riiiiiigghhhttt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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