JonCon's Red Beard Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 worst, imagine if Ned had told Jon. Robb: I'm Aemon the Dragonknight! Jon: I'm (erm... some hero!) Robb: I'm (another hero!) Jon: I'm the Lord of Winterfell! Robb: No, you cannot be the Lord of Winterfell and you can never be because my mother says you're a bastard. *days later* Robb: I'm (hero!) Jon: I'm the Lord of-- Robb: Argh... I told you cannot be a Lord. My mo-- Jon: See, father says I'm not really his son, but the Son of the Last Dragon. So, I'm... The last Dragon! Robb: ...faaaaaather!!!! Jon says he's the son of the Prince Rhaegar Targaryen...! is it truuuuuuth????!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Well. What your said seems to show that it is fine to ignore the feeling of cat or think it not worthy to make her feel better even there maybe some way to make it better. If jon is Ned's real son. Sure. He can have strong feeling and love over his another woman and love child. Anyway he did not marry cat for love. But the truth is jon is not his son. The danger and the weight of the secret on Cat will make her miserable just as well, and wouldn't lift the resentment she has about Jon. She could resent him for being the product of Lyanna with Rhaegar that caused Brandon to shout for Rhaegar's head just as well. Secrets like this are hard, and it hurts everybody involved - Cat, Ned and Jon. But telling it "to make Cat feel better" is the stupidest excuse there is. BTW I had an ex who's child was born with another woman a few months into the start of our relationship and I didn't learn about it until long time after. I loved the little boy, and still have pictures of him. So, don't you even dare to suggest what a woman can or can't feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic. Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 So basically he should have told a different lie, one much closer to the truth that he promised to keep hidden on his sister's deathbed. Can't really blame Ned for keeping it even from his wife, especially after what happened to Jon's siblings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 worst, imagine if Ned had told Jon. Robb: I'm Aemon the Dragonknight! Jon: I'm (erm... some hero!) Robb: I'm (another hero!) Jon: I'm the Lord of Winterfell! Robb: No, you cannot be the Lord of Winterfell and you can never be because my mother says you're a bastard. *days later* Robb: I'm (hero!) Jon: I'm the Lord of-- Robb: Argh... I told you cannot be a Lord. My mo-- Jon: See, father says I'm not really his son, but the Son of the Last Dragon. So, I'm... The last Dragon! Robb: ...faaaaaather!!!! Jon says he's the son of the Prince Rhaegar Targaryen...! is it truuuuuuth????!!! I said he only told cat jon is Brandon's son or lyanna's son, not rhaegar's. Other people still knew jon is Ned's bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 The danger and the weight of the secret on Cat will make her miserable just as well, and wouldn't lift the resentment she has about Jon. She could resent him for being the product of Lyanna with Rhaegar that caused Brandon to shout for Rhaegar's head just as well. Secrets like this are hard, and it hurts everybody involved - Cat, Ned and Jon. But telling it "to make Cat feel better" is the stupidest excuse there is. BTW I had an ex who's child was born with another woman a few months into the start of our relationship and I didn't learn about it until long time after. I loved the little boy, and still have pictures of him. So, don't you even dare to suggest what a woman can or can't feel. Hold on. This child was conceived several months before you started your relationship, right? Nothing is wrong with this, I guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Hold on. This child was conceived several months before you started your relationship, right? Nothing is wrong with this, I guess? So, Cat didn't have an issue with Ned fathering a child during the war. What's important is that you stop making personal assumptions about other posters' gender or understanding, just because we don't agree with "But Ned should have told Cat, so she'd feel better". It's insulting, and it doesn't add to your arguments at all. Yes, developments can vary, but if Jon can barely sit up yet, when he's supposed to be able to crawl and raise himself on his feet already then that's a huge difference. That's not some "variation", that's a huge development difference. Don't wave it off with some nonsensical generalization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 worst, imagine if Ned had told Jon. Robb: I'm Aemon the Dragonknight! Jon: I'm (erm... some hero!) Robb: I'm (another hero!) Jon: I'm the Lord of Winterfell! Robb: No, you cannot be the Lord of Winterfell and you can never be because my mother says you're a bastard. *days later* Robb: I'm (hero!) Jon: I'm the Lord of-- Robb: Argh... I told you cannot be a Lord. My mo-- Jon: See, father says I'm not really his son, but the Son of the Last Dragon. So, I'm... The last Dragon! Robb: ...faaaaaather!!!! Jon says he's the son of the Prince Rhaegar Targaryen...! is it truuuuuuth????!!! :rofl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share Posted August 31, 2015 So, Cat didn't have an issue with Ned fathering a child during the war. What's important is that you stop making personal assumptions about other posters' gender or understanding, just because we don't agree with "But Ned should have told Cat, so she'd feel better". It's insulting, and it doesn't add to your arguments at all. Yes, developments can vary, but if Jon can barely sit up yet, when he's supposed to be able to crawl and raise himself on his feet already then that's a huge difference. That's not some "variation", that's a huge development difference. Don't wave it off with some nonsensical generalization. I am trying to be humorous. If this offended you then I am sorry for that (I did apologize before in my post). But what you said was like: Ned should just ignore the feeling of cat on this and make her feel miserable for her whole marriage, this may not be the best way to treat your wife. I propose a possible better way. Of course grrm would not write like this because this will reveal the central mystery too early. He wanted us to believe Jon is Ned's son. But if it is in reality, it is possible that Ned told cat this is Brandon's bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sharya Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 But if it is in reality, it is possible that Ned told cat this is Brandon's bastard. I agree with your sentiment that it wasn't fair for Cat to believe Jon is Ned's son all these years. But, I have had to concede to the fact that it was the safest thing for Ned to do. I think Cat could have been trusted with the information, but also burdened by it. Jon is simply too young to have been passed off as Brandon's son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light a wight tonight Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 The standard answer used to be that Ned was afraid that Robert would kill Jon in his effort to eliminate the Targaryen family, especially any of Rhaegar's offspring. If nobody but Ned knows the secret's safe, but the more who know the less secure the secret is. It's assumed that Howland Reed knows and suspected that Benjen does also, but they're not considered risks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I am trying to be humorous. If this offended you then I am sorry for that (I did apologize before in my post). But what you said was like: Ned should just ignore the feeling of cat on this and make her feel miserable for her whole marriage, this may not be the best way to treat your wife. I propose a possible better way. Of course grrm would not write like this because this will reveal the central mystery too early. He wanted us to believe Jon is Ned's son. But if it is in reality, it is possible that Ned told cat this is Brandon's bastard. I said nothing like it. My opinion is that Jon's safety and that of Cat supercedes over their feelings. This is about a possible life and death situation, treason against the king. Deciding to lie for yourself is something completely different than asking your wife to lie her whole life about a bastard child. Nor is Catelyn miserable for her whole marriage. You're blowing it out of propotion. Yes, it's a thorn in her side, not because he exists, but because he's there. She doesn't like it. But she's not miserable, not in her marriage, nor as a mother. No, in reality Ned would never have said Jon was Brandon son. He would never scapegoat his dead brother or another dead person for Jon. Besides then the questions would be about who the mother might have been with Brandon, and since he did dally around in the North, any women he'd ever been with would be the talk of WF. He stopped any talk about Ashara immediately for at least that reason alone. An anonymous woman somewhere in Westeros cannot be gossipped about. Nobody's reputation is blemished for it, except Ned's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minkowski Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 she didnt have to know thats why. lyanna asked of him a promise and thats what he did how is that any morally wrong at all? it was between brother and sister now between a husband his wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 I agree with your sentiment that it wasn't fair for Cat to believe Jon is Ned's son all these years. But, I have had to concede to the fact that it was the safest thing for Ned to do. I think Cat could have been trusted with the information, but also burdened by it. Jon is simply too young to have been passed off as Brandon's son. The king is coming? No, he can't come here! Quick hide Jon! No, that will seem suspicious. What about disguising him as a girl? No, Robert knows "the bastard" was a boy. Dye his hair? No, he'll only stand out more. No reminiscing, Ned! If Lyanna is mentioned, change the subject! Cat would be tearing her hair out worrying that Robert will somehow put it together that Lyanna had a child with Rhaegar, and the kid is living with them at Winterfell. This knowledge puts an even worse burden on Catelyn because it's not just Jon in danger, it's her entire family--Ned hid the truth and is harboring the last Targaryen, which Robert might consider treason. Given Robert's temper and his known anti-Targ stance, Ned would be executed and attainted, and she'd be lucky to keep her children together and fall on her father and Edmure for help. It would never work to claim that the kid was Brandon's, Benjen was too young and didn't have a girlfriend, and there's no way Robert would believe Lyanna had the kid with someone other than Rhaegar. So the argument that Ned telling her would have made anything better is nonsensical at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Also, a deathbed wish. For some people, word given to a dying loved one would be sacred. If Lyanna asked "tell no-one", then it's no-one, full stop. Though, even without this condition, a secret directly threatening the life of a child versus a wife's discomfort in an otherwise very happy marriage is a no-brainer. There are ways Ned can make up for it with Cat, but there is no way to make up if Jon is dead (and possibly bringing harm to all the Stark family if revealed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstream Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Ned: Catelyn, I must speak with you about Jon. Cat, bristling: What about your bastard? Ned: Well, I uh...I've been lying to you all these years. He's not my son. Cat: He's not your son? That's wonderfu...wait, you've been lying to me? Ned: Well you see my sister... Cat: Leave her out of this. You lied to me?? All these years??? You let me think you loved another woman... Ned: Oh I did, I just never had a child with her. Cat: Not helping, Ned! What else have you lied about? Ned: Nothing else. Cat: Why should I believe you? You admitted you've been lying to me for our entire marriage. Ned: But, I didn't know you when we wed. Cat: And all this time since? Ned: But kitty-cat! Cat: Don't you kitty-cat me! You're sleeping in the godswood tonight! The king is coming? No, he can't come here! Quick hide Jon! No, that will seem suspicious. What about disguising him as a girl? No, Robert knows "the bastard" was a boy. Dye his hair? No, he'll only stand out more. No reminiscing, Ned! If Lyanna is mentioned, change the subject! :thumbsup: Great stuff, Both you and Falcotron have been killing it with the " what if" dialogues. :bowdown: All right. Then I am sorry. I just thought woman would be easier to understand the feeling of a wife and mother. But anyway, this is not the point. As a male, I don't think that's a fair comment. I fully understand Catelyn's feelings in this situation, and greatly empathize with her. But, as Sweetsunray stated already, I feel like Jon's, as well as everyone else's safety supersedes this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naseridrl Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Why would saying Jon was Brandon's be better? Brandon is the elder son, it'd be worse being his bastard. It'd make Jon an even greater threat to her trueborn children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 If Ned told Cat that Jon was the son of Lyanna with some dude other than Rhaegar, then Cat would naturally ask the reason of withholding this information from public. Then, Ned would have to lie more and more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 If he told her Jon was Lyanna's son it would take very little intelligence and insight to realize who the father was. (As in, the man that the entire realm knew she spent that last year with, and who reportedly raped her during this period.) And Eddard judged (rightly) that Catelyn would not risk the safety of her own children to protect someone as dangerous as a potential Targaryen bastard. Especially not given Robert's known rage at Rhaegar for what he did to Lyanna. If you look at Catelyn's actions when releasing Jaime, can you truly say that Catelyn would not have done anything to safeguard her own children - including deliver a potential Targaryen heir to Robert to prevent the suspicion that the North is harboring this child? Ned couldn't take that chance, given the promise he had given Lyanna, which was to protect Jon as if he was his own son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 It has always bothered me that Catelyn having known her husband for at least 15 years has not figured out that he lied to her about this. It is so far out of character for Ned Stark to father a bastard. Its amazing to me that Cat didn't figure this out. She knew him more than anyone else and she was so bitter and blinded by her hatred of a child that she couldn't see the forest for the tree that was hitting her square in the face. Ned was keeping a promise to his sister. Catelyn wasn't a part of that promise. Ned married her because of Brandon's death in keeping with tradition. A lesser man might have tried to get out of that. In her POV chapter she says she could forgive him any number of bastards, she simply doesn't want to forgive him this one because Ned has him at Winterfell with her own children. She should have trusted in her husband's integrity more. I'm not saying she should have known from the outset, but she should have figured it out at some point. As for Ned blaming someone else for the child's paternity, that is ludicrous. It goes too far against his character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a Spider from Mars Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Catelyn is not all there in the head. Like all of Hoster Tully's children they alway seem to fuck things up. Also Edward Stark barely knew her at the time, his mind was probably on Ashara Dayne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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