The Riverlands Web V.7

[Wizz-The-Smith]

16 hours ago, Tijgy said:

I did not read all of your threads but was ever the whereabouts of the family of Lady Shella Whent discussed? Because already they already disappeared from ACOK. The last thing we heard of them LF mentioning the fact Shella died but that is everything we know?

Hey Tijgy!  Welcome to the Riverland's Web!  I had a quick look at the page Le Cygne attached, there are some cool thoughts on Shella, but Harrenhal and all that surrounds it really needs it's own [Difficult] PQ.  However, with all the hiding holes in the RL's, and suspected hidden characters etc, Shella is one to watch for sure.   

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On ‎22‎/‎01‎/‎2016 at 4:36 AM, Le Cygne said:

I thought this was interesting from a Theon chapter, about the washerwomen references (yes, I was wondering about that scene with Sansa defending Sandor when she heard the women discussing the relative merits of Sandor's and Kettleblack's "jousting" skills by the well, faster may not be better in all things, as she will come to know):

''Washerwomen. That was the polite way of saying camp follower, which was the polite way of saying whore. Where they came from Theon could not say. They just seemed to appear, like maggots on a corpse or ravens after a battle. Every army drew them. Some were hardened whores who could fuck twenty men in a night and drink them all blind. Others looked as innocent as maids, but that was just a trick of their trade. Some were camp brides, bound to the soldiers they followed with words whispered to one god or another but doomed to be forgotten once the war was done. They would warm a man's bed by night, patch the holes in his boots at morning, cook his supper come dusk, and loot his corpse after the battle. Some even did a bit of washing. With them, oft as not, came bastard children, wretched, filthy creatures born in one camp or the other.''

Nice catch!  That's interesting.  It certainly fleshes out the minor characters that are the whores/washerwoman, and the talk of their tactics confirms all our musings about the whores at RR.  Like it!   

[LongRider]

Due to the recent (and not so recent) site resets, I lost many of my links.  Alas, I can no longer link to the original post of Mad Madam Mim and Sandor Speak so I thought I would re-create it here so as I could have a live link again on my signature.  Please excuse my indulgence.  

Sandor Speak: With thanks to the graceful Mad Madam Mim

Fuck = the

 Fuck your ser = Please, call me Sandor

Bloody hells. Bloody hells. I’d skin you alive for a cup of wine, girl = I'm slightly parched

You look almost a woman… face, teats, and you’re taller too, almost… ah, you’re still a stupid little bird = you look pretty today

Do you like wine, little bird? True wine? A flagon of sour red, dark as blood, all a man needs. Or a woman = fancy a drink?

I’ll be sure and tell (Gregor) that, before I cut his heart out. = I have brother issues

She ought to dip him in fire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black = I have dwarf issues

Bugger that. Bugger him. Bugger you.= Actually I just have an issue with everybody

Little Bird = I bloody love you

A flagon of sour red, dark as blood, all a man needs. Or a woman.=  I am an idiot, I am drunk, I drink too much, I know... I am a mess, I don't know what the hell I am doing, but I am bloody in love with you.*

The girl speaks truly. What a man sows on his name day, he reaps throughout the year.= Fuck you Joffrey, you little pissant.*

*later additions

[Le Cygne]

Excellent!

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Ha!  Nice one Longie and MMM! 

[Booknerd2]

I can't even go there with my crazy work hours and how hard it is to come on consistently, so I'll leave it at that. I just want to thank you Wizz for the excellent piece on Piper and Vance and the Jack Vance piece. I have no words which is why there is no way in hell I can touch that. Still marinating in the brain and it was a very weak point for me as far as making connections. So much I hadn't picked up on and pieced together and it was extremely insightful and helpful. Thank you to everyone for the comments and additions and welcome to new faces (avatars) we haven't seen on here before. Hoping that our observations and what we notice,what sticks out or sticks in our craw, and like to share with each other for more perspective on the series and feedback to questions we have or things we wonder about as readers, will maybe give you some things to think about too. And also thank you Le Cygne for the Jane Eyre comparisons. I read it years ago and was rusty and marveled at the parallels.

I will try my best to come back on and post when possible. And the possible for a long time always seems to become the damned impossible. Lol.

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

On ‎06‎/‎02‎/‎2016 at 11:08 PM, booknerd2 said:

I can't even go there with my crazy work hours and how hard it is to come on consistently, so I'll leave it at that. I just want to thank you Wizz for the excellent piece on Piper and Vance and the Jack Vance piece. I have no words which is why there is no way in hell I can touch that. Still marinating in the brain and it was a very weak point for me as far as making connections. So much I hadn't picked up on and pieced together and it was extremely insightful and helpful. Thank you to everyone for the comments and additions and welcome to new faces (avatars) we haven't seen on here before. Hoping that our observations and what we notice,what sticks out or sticks in our craw, and like to share with each other for more perspective on the series and feedback to questions we have or things we wonder about as readers, will maybe give you some things to think about too. And also thank you Le Cygne for the Jane Eyre comparisons. I read it years ago and was rusty and marveled at the parallels.

I will try my best to come back on and post when possible. And the possible for a long time always seems to become the damned impossible. Lol.

Hey bookie!  Hope you're well!     I'm glad you enjoyed my Piper & Vance thoughts, I wanted to put this whole P&V thing in one post after how much I've thrown at you throughout your wonderful Riverland's Web.  Hopefully this gives a clearer picture for some as to what's been evolving in the RL's.  Also, I hope this helps for any future Piper & Vance/RL's stuff in TWOW for the Webbers.  Bring on the RL's arc's!   

And the Jack Vance stuff was cool, thanks.  A nice little extra!  And a look into GRRM's inspirations at the very least. 

I will work on another RL's Web topic when time allows, there is loads to talk about!  Nice to post with you bookie, and thanks for your kind words.  Your work on this thread should not be underestimated !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Hey Webbers!   

A while back we spoke about Beric's parallel to BR in Arya's chapter's and the old gods connection to High Heart, The GoHH etc........  Well I have broken down these chapters for a thread in the re-read section called Bran's growing powers concentrating on everything old gods.  As it is in the RL's I thought I might post it here as well. 

There are a few things in the essays which are mentioned to help the OP in our search, and may not make sense.  So this is a post to explain a couple of things we are looking for in the text over there.

-We believe that the 'wind' is inhabited by the old gods/BR and can be used in old gods strongholds eg: North of the Wall, WF, The Wall and for this post High Heart.  Typical examples are the wind tugging, yanking or just playing with peoples cloaks, sometimes with ghostly fingers etc..  It happens a lot.

Or it can be 'the wind whispered through the trees' just as BR does.  In these chapters, the weirwoods whisper to the GoHH in her sleep as well.  Other times it 'blows' or 'gusts' and shows an interest in/plays with various characters etc..........  So that's why I mention the wind a lot. 

-In that thread we have also been searching for George's wordplay.  He uses the word Ghost/ghost and plays with the capitalisation and meaning [especially in Jon chapters] and we are looking for 'no one' references [among others] around Arya in earlier text.  So I mention these as well, directed at my friend and OP of the thread, Evita.

-We also have a sister thread ready for season 6 of the show, and I reference that as well.  

Otherwise I hope this is a thorough look at some of the chapters we know very well on this thread, but with a distinct old gods bias.  I hope you enjoy them Webbers!   

[Wizz-The-Smith]

THE OLD GODS IN THE RIVERLAND’S : A CLOSER LOOK AT HIGH HEART

Hi everyone   In this short essay series I will research Arya IV – VI and VIII ASOS.  These three chapters are where to find the only mentions of HH in the series.  I will attempt to show the powers of the old gods are still evident in the RL’s.  That Beric Dondarrion is/was almost a direct parallel of BR.  And that the cave under HH is a direct parallel to BR’s cave north of the Wall.

I will also of course include any of the text we have been posting about in the thread if I think it’s relevant.  I shall post the chapters sequentially. 

PART ONE: ARYA IV ASOS

Arya and the BWB are travelling through the RL’s looking for Beric and visiting various people for information.  In this passage they are seeking help from The Lady of the Leaves……………..

‘’You’ve not seen Lord Beric?’’ asked Tom Sevenstrings.

‘’He’s dead.’’  The woman sounded sick. ‘’The Mountain caught him, and drove a dagger through his eye.  A begging brother told us.  He had it from the lips of a man who saw it happen.’’

‘’That’s an old stale tale, and false,’’ said Lem. ‘’The lightening lord’s not so easy to kill.  Ser Gregor might have put his eye out, but a man don’t die o’ that.  Jack could tell you.’’

‘’Well, I never did,’’ said one-eyed Jack-be-Lucky…………

I already knew there was a BR parallel to be found with Beric as I have posted about it before.  But to be thorough I re-read all three chapters again, even though not all the action was at HH.  And I’m glad I did.  This is our first clue to a link between the two characters as of course BR suffered the same fate at the hands of Bittersteel. 

‘Drove a dagger through his eye’ and ‘put his eye out, but a man don’t die o’ that’ explains perfectly what happened to both characters.  

Soon afterwards, they arrive at HH for the first time…………………….

The next day, they rode to a place called High Heart, a hill so lofty that from atop it Arya felt as though she could see half the world.  Around its brow stood a ring of huge pale stumps, all that remained of a circle of once-mighty weirwoods.  Arya and Gendry walked around the hill to count them.  There were thirty-one, some so wide that she could have used them for a bed.

High Heart had been sacred to the children of the forest, Tom Sevenstrings told her, and some of their magic lingered here still. ‘’No harm can ever come to those who sleep here,’’ the singer said……

I bolded the text about the weirwoods not only to signify the obvious allusion to the old gods but also as I will refer back to these ‘thirty-one ww stumps’ in the Arya VI analysis. 

Then the line ‘HH had been sacred to the CotF’ gives us our first indication as to just how important this place was for the children, ‘sacred’ in fact.  Perhaps a central base of operation back in their day?  The central location of the RL’s would’ve been perfect for such a base, had they not been scattered by the Andals.

And then Tom tells us that ‘some of their magic lingers there still’.  With what we know this is a cool line and presents Bran/BR a potential avenue in to the RL’s.  It seems GRRM wanted us to take note of this first mention of old gods/CotF magic as we move forward.  The conversation continued………..

The smallfolk hereabouts shunned the place, Tom told her; it was said to be haunted by the ghosts of the children of the forest who had died here when the Andal King named Erreg the Kinslayer had cut down their grove.  Arya knew about the CotF, and about the Andals too, but ghosts did not frighten her.  She used to hide in the crypts of Winterfell when she was little, and play games of come-into-my-castle and monsters and maidens amongst the stone Kings on their thrones.

It’s said that the ‘place is haunted by the ghosts of the CotF who had died there’, and that ‘the smallfolk shun the place’.  This would insinuate they feel creeped out up there, maybe experiencing ghostly goings on?  Again perhaps a subtle clue to keep an eye out for such when ‘we’ visit HH?

Next Arya thinks ‘ghosts did not frighten her’ and that ‘she used to hide in the crypts’.  There is a couple of things going on here I think.  The play on the word ghost/Ghost for one, we are about to meet the ‘Ghost’ of HH who is later likened to Jon’s wolf Ghost.  Plus all the Haunted/haunting stuff, when the author tells us a place is haunted we should be on the lookout for some of this text.

But also it directly links the thought of ghosts with the WF crypts and the stone kings on their thrones.  I thought this interesting after all we have posted about regards the possible ghosts roaming Winterfell.  Very subtle and may mean nothing, but I think the first time we visit the crypts in Ned I AGOT the statues seem very ‘ghostly’. 

This next bit of text is the first time the wind appears in these chapters………………………. 

 Yet even so, the hair on the back of her neck stood up that night.  She had been asleep, but the storm woke her.  The wind pulled the coverlet right off her and sent it ‘swirling’ into the bushes.  When she went after it she heard voices.

This example is slightly different to our normal findings, but very effective!  I think the wind sent the coverlet ‘swirling’ into the bushes so Arya would witness the conversation going on around the fire.  Perhaps the wind is showing a stronger ability than normal as we’re at HH?  And the word swirling is used a lot around the old gods text, usually the wind itself.  Although this is slightly different, it caught my eye.  Anyway, as Arya ‘watched and listened’…………………………………    

Besides the embers of their campfire, she saw Tom, Lem, and Greenbeard talking to a tiny little woman, a foot shorter than Arya and older than Old Nan, all stooped and wrinkled and leaning on a gnarled cane.  Her white hair was so long it came almost to the ground.  When the wind ‘gusted’ it blew about her head in a fine cloud.  Her flesh was whiter, the colour of milk, and it seemed to Arya that her eyes were red, though it was hard to tell from the bushes.  ‘’The old gods stir and will not let me sleep,’’ she heard the woman say……………….

Again the wind is ‘gusting’ as we have shown a lot, and made her hair ‘blow about in a fine cloud’.  The wind seemed interested in the GoHH and the way her hair blows in a fine cloud reminds me of the text when the wind creates plumes of snow crystals etc…………  

Then when the GoHH says ‘the old gods stir and will not let me sleep’ this is our first textual evidence that the old gods are actually present.  It is left at that by the author, but we will come back to her relationship with the old gods in Arya VIII.  Continuing…………………………………..

The next morning, the little white haired woman was nowhere to be seen.  As they saddled their horses, Arya asked Tom Sevenstrings if the children of the forest still dwelled on High Heart.  The singer chuckled. ‘’Saw her, did you?’’

‘’Was she a ghost?’’

‘’Do ghosts complain of how their joints creak?  No, she’s only an old dwarf woman.  A queer one, though, and evil eyed.  But she knows things she has no business knowing, and sometimes she’ll tell you if she likes the look of you.’’

We have another play on the word ghost.  Unbeknownst to her, Arya is asking Tom if the Ghost was a ghost?  And the next line is I think another set up for us to ponder as Tom tells us ‘she knows things she has no business knowing’.  How does she know things?  Again I will revisit these thoughts in Arya VIII.

IN CONCLUSION

I think this chapter was setting some stuff up for our next visits to HH.  Namely……..

Beric having one eye/BR parallels and the thirty-one weirwood stumps atop the hill are tied in for the next chapter, Arya VI.

Tom telling us the GoHH knows things she shouldn’t, and I address this in the third chapter analysis Arya VIII.

But also, this chapter reveals that magic still lingers there – it’s considered haunted – the old gods are stirring – and the wind throwing Arya’s coverlet into the bushes as if to facilitate her hearing that conversation.  Plus some of my musing on the various text.

See you in part two. [Hopefully]  

[Wizz-The-Smith]

THE OLD GODS IN THE RIVERLAND’S: A CLOSER LOOK AT HIGH HEART

Hey everybody.   This is part two of three looking at the old gods in the RL’s.  I hope you enjoyed part one, in the first instalment I mention that there were two set ups I tie in to this chapter.  Those being Beric’s one eye/BR parallels and the thirty one weirwood stumps atop HH.

The latter is important as Arya and co were blindfolded on the journey to this cave, and we are not informed where it is.  However, I think there are big clues that this is a cave underneath HH.  The hill is huge and so perhaps the journey from the top to wherever the entrance to this cave is, is actually quite long?  They certainly didn’t want Arya or Gendry to know the route.  And anyway, where else in the RL’s would you find so many weirwood roots?  For the record I think this is definitely HH. 

 PART TWO: ARYA VI

We’ll jump right in as they enter the cave……………………

The walls were equal parts stone and soil, with huge white roots twisting through them like a thousand slow pale snakes.  People were emerging from between those roots as she watched; edging out from the shadows for a look at the captives, stepping from the mouths of pitch-black tunnels, popping out of crannies and crevices on all sides.  In one place on the far side of the fire, the roots formed a kind of stairway up to a hollow in the earth where a man sat almost lost in the tangle of weirwood.

Big as the fire was, the cave was bigger; it was hard to tell where it began and where it ended.  The tunnel mouths might have been two feet deep or gone on two miles.  Arya saw men and women and little children, all of them watching warily.

[A bit later the Hound is unimpressed with the BWB’s claim that they have bloodied many an army.]

‘’You lot?  Don’t make me laugh.  You look more swineherds than soldiers.’’

‘’Some of us was swineherds,’’ said a short man Arya didn’t know. ‘’And some was tanners or singers or masons.  But that was before the war come.’’

The similarities to BR’s cave are everywhere.  The weirwood roots like slow pale snakes – people in the tunnels stepping/looking out -- a man lost in the tangle of ww – tunnels that may go on for miles – references to ‘little children’ and ‘singers’. 

Bran thinks the weirwood roots are like a ‘nest of milk snakes or giant grave worms, soft and pale and squishy’, very similar to our ‘slow pale snakes’ here.  Then as Bran passes passages/chambers in his cave, ‘he saw eyes looking back at them’ much as Arya has people ‘popping out of crannies and crevices on all sides’. 

A man seemingly sitting a weirwood throne, ‘lost in the tangle of roots’ needs no explanation.  The tunnels are described as ‘possibly two miles long’ which as we know parallels BR’s cave as well.  Then we get the clever reference to the ‘little children’ and the ‘singers’.  I thought it odd there were children at this BWB hide out, and that of all the professions the short man could’ve listed I wouldn’t have thought singers should be so high on the list.  I suppose Tom ‘o’ Sevens is there.  Anyway, it works perfectly for what I think George is trying to achieve here, the direct parallel to the old gods cave. 

As we continue, suddenly someone starts to speak from across the cave……………….

The voice came from the man seated amongst the weirwood roots halfway up the wall.  ‘’Six score of us set out to bring the King’s justice to your brother.’’  The speaker was descending the tangle of steps toward the floor. ‘’Six score brave men and true, led by a fool in a starry cloak.’’  A scarecrow of a man, he wore a ragged black cloak speckled with stars and an iron breastplate dinted by a hundred battles. 

When he reached the floor, the outlaws moved aside to let him pass.  One of his eyes was gone, Arya saw, the flesh about the socket scarred and puckered, and he had a dark black ring all around his neck.  ‘’With their help, we fight on as best we can, for Robert and the realm.’’ 

Again we get the ‘man seated amongst the weirwood roots halfway up the wall’ which just screams BR.  And this is quickly followed by ‘a scarecrow of a man, he wore a ragged black cloak’ which again describes BR’s appearance.  Then to top it all off we get ‘one of his eyes was gone’ to fully complete the parallel. 

A one-eyed scarecrow of a man sitting a weirwood throne in a cave full of ww roots, tunnels, little children and singers. 

These next couple of examples are just things I thought of when reading again.  So why not put forward my thoughts?

As Beric removes his breastplate so as to fight on an equal footing with the Hound we get………

Lord Beric’s ribs were outlined starkly beneath his skin.  A puckered crater scarred his breast just above his left nipple………….

The ‘ribs outlined starkly beneath his skin’ again made me think of BR and his withered appearance.  But the choice to use the word ‘starkly’ caught my eye as well.  Knowing that Beric is basically the mirror image of BR, it instantly made me think of Bran.  Was this another clever choice of words for us re-readers to catch later on?  Perhaps.

Also…………………..

Thoros brought the Hound his swordbelt. ‘’Does a dog have honour?’’ the priest asked. ‘’Lest you think to cut your way free of here, or seize some child for a hostage……..

With all the talk of an invasion of the cave in the sister thread this horrible possibility jumped out at me.  Could that be possible?  An abduction of one of the CotF?  I hope not, but again, thought I’d share that line as it made me think.  Too much probably!    Moving on……………………..

Lit from below, his face was a death mask, his missing eye a red and angry wound. 

Arya gets another look at Dondarrion’s ‘death mask’ of a face and also ‘his missing eye is red’.  Both of which could be tied to BR of course.  Although George has played with the red eyes.  Beric’s red eye is missing, BR’s is not. 

Finally, after the Hound plunged his sword through Beric’s neck/shoulder, Arya looks as though she may attack.  But she is subdued before anything can happen.  She still let him have some stick though.  Then afterwards…………..………………..

‘’You go to hell, Hound,’’ she screamed at Sandor Clegane in helpless empty-handed rage. ‘’You just go to hell!’’

‘’He has,’’ said a voice scarce stronger than a ‘whisper’.

When Arya turned, Lord Beric Dondarrion was standing behind her, his bloody hand clutching Thoros by the shoulder.

Beric rises from the dead again to the shock of Sandor I’m sure.  And he speaks his last words of the chapter in ‘a voice scarce stronger than a ‘whisper.’  We have posted before about BR and the wind whispering in various guises.  BR in the darkness of the cave, and the wind whispering through trees etc.  And now we have BericRaven whispering as well.  

IN CONCLUSION

In this chapter we get the tie in with all those weirwood stumps from Arya IV, and the one-eyed Beric that we were told about.  That was a cool set up by George to drip feed us the information so we could work out where this cave was.

To list everything we got in this chapter, there was: The entire cave parallel, including the roots, people looking/stepping out from tunnels, the tunnels being long, Beric in/on his weirwood throne, little children and singers – The text where Beric is a scarecrow of a man wearing a black cloak having one-eye – His missing eye being red – His voice being scarce a whisper.

This is very clever from Martin, he obviously had a vision of this cave in the north for years before writing about it.  In fact I think he had something similar in mind since AGOT, with all we have found.  As we move on, I will try to answer Tom ‘o’ Sevens mention that ‘she knows things she no right knowing’.  And continue with the old gods search as normal.

I hope this has made sense and will help as I attempt to break down the final chapter in this short series, Arya VIII. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

THE OLD GODS IN THE RIVERLAND’S: A CLOSER LOOK AT HIGH HEART

Hi people.  Hopefully I have been able to link together some text that confirms this is an old gods stronghold.  And potentially shown that the cave the BWB use is in fact underneath HH, and that Beric and his surroundings were a direct parallel to BR/old gods/CotF’s cave in the north.

In this edition, part three, I will attack Tom’s assumption that the GoHH ‘knows things she has no reason to know’.  And you may notice a more familiar tone to this chapter’s analysis.

PART THREE: ARYA VIII

Arya and the BWB approach HH, once they are at the top of the hill they build a camp fire.

From up here she could see a storm raging to the north, but High Heart stood above the rain.  It wasn’t above the wind, though; the gusts were blowing so strongly that it felt like someone was behind her, yanking on her cloak.  Only when she turned, no one was there.

Ghosts, she remembered.  High Heart is haunted.

This is a cool bit of text so I bolded almost all of it.  The ‘gusts’ of wind are really strong atop the hill and we get a familiar personification as it is ‘yanking’ on her cloak.  There doesn’t have to be a reason why the wind is this strong, but I think it’s the fact we are in old gods territory, even in the RL’s.  This is their place.  Some of the text touches on this as we move forward. 

There is Arya’s thought that it is ghosts as well.  She says the wind is a ghost here, we also meet the ‘Ghost’ of HH and as I had previously mentioned, Jon’s wolf Ghost is next.  And if you consider we think there is a presence in this wind, then it really is rather ‘ghostly’ to have your cloak ‘yanked’ or ‘tugged.’  Perhaps this falls in line with the ‘ghostly fingers’ phrase we see sometimes [Jon says the eyes of the ww’s in the grove beyond the wall have ‘eyes like Ghosts’ when it is probable both Bran and BR were watching through them.]

Also for Evita, another time ‘no one’ is used.  I think I have seen this quite a lot around the wind actually, but will have to keep an eye out for this reference in the future.

As the chapter continues, they sit and talk around the fire.  Beric mentions how fire consumes and that six times is too many etc………...  The wind then returns with familiar text………

That night the wind was howling almost like a wolf and there were some real wolves off to the west giving it lessons……………[then]  the others were fast asleep when Arya spied the small pale shape creeping behind the horses, thin white hair flying wild as she leaned upon a gnarled cane.  The woman could not have been more than three feet tall.  The firelight made her eyes gleam as red as the eyes of Jon’s wolf.  He was a ghost too.  Arya stole closer, and knelt to watch.

Having attempted to link the ‘howling wind’ with a wolf/BR/old gods in the AGOT prologue analysis, this line seems to back that notion.  And in the same sentence as well, thanks George.  Not only that but ‘the wolves are giving the wind lessons’, ha awesome!   But most importantly [in my mind at least] they are working together.  Perhaps strengthening the idea that this link/relationship between wolf and wind/old gods is one to follow?  And that the ‘howling wind’ is our clue for an old gods presence in said element?

Also I bolded the descriptions of the GoHH to show that she is an albino.  The ‘small pale shape’ with ‘thin white hair’ and the ‘gleaming red eyes’.  She is also three feet tall and resembles a CotF, but she is not.  Just a prophetic albino living amongst weirwood stumps atop a cave that resembles BR’s cave far in the north. Hmmm. 

There are some other cool insinuations but we will get there.  For now, this being an old gods stronghold and pretty windy, here’s another thing she mentions……….

‘’Give me wine or I will go.  My bones are old.  My joints ache when the winds do blow, and up here the winds are always blowing.’’

Of course the winds are always blowing up there, this seems like an old gods portal into the Riverland’s.  Where their powers are stronger than elsewhere.  The GoHH tells us all of this in fact…………

She cackled again. ‘’Look in your fires, pink priest, and you will see.  Not now, though, not here, you’ll see nothing here.  This place belongs to the old gods still…they linger here as I do, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead.  Nor do they love the flames.  For the oak recalls the acorn, the acorn dreams the oak, the stump lives in them both.  And they remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists.’’

This is an evocative line.  Agreed that the ‘place belongs to the old gods still’, but the next bit sounds like Bran and BR.  The description ‘shrunken and feeble but not yet dead’ is what Bran thinks of himself and could certainly describe BR as well.  Anyway it confirms the old gods still ‘linger there’ if we believe the GoHH, as I do. 

The next bit I find interesting. ‘Nor do they love the flames’ and they ‘remember when the First Men came with fire in their fists’.  I have mentioned a couple of times that I see the wind paying particular attention to Mel at the Wall.  And there is this weird inter mingling of old gods and Red gods with Beric and LSH in the RL’s.  Beric seems to parallel BR and everything old gods in the cave, yet is animated by the power of the Red god and Thoros.  He has passed whatever this weird mix is onto LSH, who I think has this very cave at High Heart as a base for the BWB. [The same cave Brienne is potentially taking Jaime too by the way.]

This line is for Evita.

The dwarf woman vanished as suddenly as she had appeared……..

I know you have noted the word ‘vanished’ as a symbol of magic in the Direwolves, appearing and reappearing.  So thought perhaps a prophetic albino who seems an agent of the old gods ‘vanishing’ much the same as she seemed to appear may be of interest to you. 

To try and address the question of why Tom basically says ‘she knows stuff she shouldn’t know’ this last bit of text in the chapter is cool, and worth extra thought I feel.  Remember that whenever we see the GoHH she has had visions/dreams that she relays to the BWB.  And also she is one of the few that gets these visions right as the fandom has shown when breaking down her prophetic predictions………….

‘’Your brother may be gone,’’ said Thoros. ‘’Your mother as well.  I did not see them in the flames.  This wedding the old one spoke of, a wedding on the Twins…she has her own ways of knowing things, that one.  The weirwoods whisper in her ear when she sleeps.  If she says your mother is gone to the Twins…’’

Right, so we know the old gods can see the future as well as the past, yes?  And Thoros straight out tells us here that the ‘old one’ has the weirwoods whisper in her ear as she sleeps and that’s how she knows things.  So logic would suggest that it was the old gods that gave the GoHH all of this information.  I’m sure someone has pointed this out before, but I don’t see much talk of the old gods in the breakdown of her prophecies.    

Anyway, could this be proof of BR/old gods influencing events as far south as the RL’s?  Sending dreams/visions as the weirwoods whisper to the prophetic dwarf in her sleep?  Of course only to have her relay these messages to the BWB or relevant players in the area that could act on these prophecies.  I think it’s a definite possibility.      

IN CONCLUSION

In this chapter we get – The strong wind ‘yanking’ on Arya’s cloak – Arya thinking of the wind as a ‘ghost’ – The ‘howling wind’ being tied directly with the wolves again [the wolves given it lessons no less] – The prophetic albino surrounded by weirwood stumps atop a cave that resembles BR’s, ww throne and all – The strong winds always blowing there, this is the old gods place -- That the old gods linger, shrunken and feeble but not yet dead.  And they remember – The ww’s whispering into the GoHH’s ear as she sleeps, potentially influencing events south of the Wall, in the RL’s at that.

High Heart certainly seems like a hive of old gods activity, and a stronghold that Bran should now be able to access/influence as BR has.  This is awesome, and the possibilities are vast!  It’s very exciting.  There is a caveat though, when you realise that this cave is very likely where LSH is at the moment, in what is a BWB base/hideout.  And that Brienne is probably taking Jaime to that very cave.  Will Bran see what goes on?  This is a creepy thought, but perhaps a necessity to really master this ability to have a thousand eyes and two. [In Bran’s case]

Thanks for reading, I hope you enjoyed it. 

[LongRider]

17 hours ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

or seize some child for a hostage……..

With all the talk of an invasion of the cave in the sister thread this horrible possibility jumped out at me.  Could that be possible?  An abduction of one of the CotF?  I hope not, but again, thought I’d share that line as it made me think.  Too much probably!    Moving on……………………..

It refers to the later stealing of Arya by the Hound.  

Great work Wizz!   One thought occurred to me when reading your last post; we learned in Bran's posts from BR's cave that there are CotF 'plugged' into weirwood tree roots like BR is.  However, we get no explanation for them.  Could they be on the 'weirnet' as well?  I don't see why not, they may be plugged into HH and passing info to the Ghost, not to mention, giving Jaime some pretty wild dreams when he was there.

Perhaps Beric is plugged into BR, but the Ghost is plugged into the CotF?  I like that idea. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, LongRider said:

It refers to the later stealing of Arya by the Hound.  

Great work Wizz!   One thought occurred to me when reading your last post; we learned in Bran's posts from BR's cave that there are CotF 'plugged' into weirwood tree roots like BR is.  However, we get no explanation for them.  Could they be on the 'weirnet' as well?  I don't see why not, they may be plugged into HH and passing info to the Ghost, not to mention, giving Jaime some pretty wild dreams when he was there.

Perhaps Beric is plugged into BR, but the Ghost is plugged into the CotF?  I like that idea. 

I got the impression that the CotF plugged into the roots in Bloodraven's cave were more gone than him. He is the last Greenseer afterall. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

6 hours ago, LongRider said:

It refers to the later stealing of Arya by the Hound.  

Great work Wizz!   One thought occurred to me when reading your last post; we learned in Bran's posts from BR's cave that there are CotF 'plugged' into weirwood tree roots like BR is.  However, we get no explanation for them.  Could they be on the 'weirnet' as well?  I don't see why not, they may be plugged into HH and passing info to the Ghost, not to mention, giving Jaime some pretty wild dreams when he was there.

Perhaps Beric is plugged into BR, but the Ghost is plugged into the CotF?  I like that idea. 

Hey thanks Longie!    Oh, I agree it refers to Arya.  I was musing if we could find double meaning in the quote as I had presented the 'little children' as CotF in the Beric/BR parallel.  TBH, I had just read the show thread and they were talking about an invasion of the cave in there.  So I was perhaps influenced to include that for them.

The CotF that seemed 'plugged in' can not be ruled out, fair point.  But I tend to agree with Lost Melnibonean that the last greenseer is a better option.  Thematically it makes sense as well, kind of showing us what the teacher can do before we start to see Bran take on his mantle.  Still you're right to bring those guys up.  How many are there?  I can't remember, for some reason I think it's six.  Anyway when Bran is on his way to the cave north of the Wall he has that chaperone of CH and all those ravens etc.... The number of Ravens gets lower every day Bran notices, until there were about six there.   I should really look up the text.

Beric and the Ghost being 'plugged' into BR and the CotF is a cool idea.  I think the main reason they look like they do is to fit this parallel Martin is trying to create.  He has made the Ghost resemble a CotF because it fits nicely with the old gods hints.  Likewise Beric, and the little children, singers etc........  But your idea is just as viable, and a little better tbh.  That's unlike me to turn down a one eyed option as being somehow physically linked to BR.  But I think Beric just fits as part of this parallel. 

The Ghost on the other hand does have the weirwoods whisper to her in her sleep, so she is 'plugged' in at some level.    

[Lost Melnibonean]

I posted this in a Jojen Paste thread, but I figured y'all might dig it considering where this thread seems to be going...

We meet the ghost of High Heart here. . .

 

Quote

The next day they rode to a place called High Heart, a hill so lofty that from atop it Arya felt as though she could see half the world. Around its brow stood a ring of huge pale stumps, all that remained of a circle of once-mighty weirwoods. Arya and Gendry walked around the hill to count them. There were thirty-one, some so wide that she could have used them for a bed.

. . .

Beside the embers of their campfire, she saw Tom, Lem, and Greenbeard talking to a tiny little woman, a foot shorter than Arya and older than Old Nan, all stooped and wrinkled and leaning on a gnarled black cane. Her white hair was so long it came almost to the ground. When the wind gusted it blew about her head in a fine cloud. Her flesh was whiter, the color of milk, and it seemed to Arya that her eyes were red, though it was hard to tell from the bushes. "The old gods stir and will not let me sleep," she heard the woman say. "I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror. All this I dreamt, and more. Do you have gifts for me, to pay me for my dreams?"

Arya IV, Storm 22

So, the ghost is short, old, and white with red eyes, perhaps an albino. And she has prophetic dreams like Jojen, who we recall has eyes the color of moss. (Bran III, Clash 21) And she lives on, near, or under a hill crowned with weirwood stumps. Later, through Jaime, we learn that weirwood never rots, (Jaime, Dance) and that their magical properties apparently survive even after they are cut down (See Jaime VI, Storm 44).

Then we meet Bloodraven, the last greenseer. . .

 

Quote

Before them a pale lord in ebon finery sat dreaming in a tangled nest of roots, a woven weirwood throne that embraced his withered limbs as a mother does a child.

His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. What skin the corpse lord showed was white, save for a bloody blotch that crept up his neck onto his cheek. His white hair was fine and thin as root hair and long enough to brush against the earthen floor. Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh, to emerge again from his shoulder. A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

Bran II, Dance 13

So, greenseers sit in tangled nests of weirwood roots from which they receive nourishments. And Bloodraven, like the ghost is a small albino with a red eye.

 

Quote

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers. "

Bran III, Dance 34

And now we see that greenseers are marked by red or moss-colored eyes, although Jojen insisted he was not a greenseer, but merely possessed of the greensight (Bran I, Storm 9). But it seems likely that the difference between a greenseer and a person with the greensight is more a matter of degree, rather than a different category entirely. We are told greenseers are not robust, and we know that neither Bloodraven, the ghost, and Jojen are robust.

Now here’s what piqued my interest. . .  The ghost is old, and Bloodraven tells us that greenseers don’t live long until they join with the wood. So, the ghost of High Heart must have herself a little weirwood nest under the hill, eh?

And consider this. . .

 

Quote

"The trees will teach him," said Leaf. She beckoned, and another of the singers padded forward, the white-haired one that Meera had named Snowy locks. She had a weirwood bowl in her hands, carved with a dozen faces, like the ones the heart trees wore. Inside was a white paste, thick and heavy, with dark red veins running through it. "You must eat of this," said Leaf. She handed Bran a wooden spoon.

The boy looked at the bowl uncertainly. "What is it?"

"A paste of weirwood seeds."

Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated.

"Will this make me a greenseer?"

"Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden. "This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees."

Bran III, Dance 34

So, whom do you suppose was sacrificed for the ghost of High Heart?

[LongRider]

Why would there even be a sacrifice for the GoHH?  We don't know if she is a greenseer.  She might be as advertised; a woods witch, or a dwarf witch, a dwarf of some sort.  We don't know if she is a dwarf or a CotF or a greenseer.

She said she 'gorged on grief at Summerhall' and there was a great tragedy and fire there, as we know.  It there were any sacrifices, they are currently obscured and may never fully come to light.  It's possible that some sacrifice might have been made to hatch the dragon eggs, a bad plan obviously, but perhaps possible, and one hell of a sacrifice for a little known woods witch. 

The sap of the ww trees has always been compared to blood, so I don't see that Jojen, a man with less power than Bran, would be needed when BR tells BR tells him he has the power in his blood already.

[Lost Melnibonean]

16 minutes ago, LongRider said:

Why would there even be a sacrifice for the GoHH?  We don't know if she is a greenseer.  She might be as advertised; a woods witch, or a dwarf witch, a dwarf of some sort.  We don't know if she is a dwarf or a CotF or a greenseer.

She said she 'gorged on grief at Summerhall' and there was a great tragedy and fire there, as we know.  It there were any sacrifices, they are currently obscured and may never fully come to light.  It's possible that some sacrifice might have been made to hatch the dragon eggs, a bad plan obviously, but perhaps possible, and one hell of a sacrifice for a little known woods witch. 

The sap of the ww trees has always been compared to blood, so I don't see that Jojen, a man with less power than Bran, would be needed when BR tells BR tells him he has the power in his blood already.

Like I said, I posted it in a Jojen paste thread... but leaving the paste bit behind, since we don't need to debate that (solid as a rock) theory here, we know she want a CotF. She might have been a half breed, but we have no direct evidence of CotF cross breeding, do we? And the circumstantial evidence of such cross breeding between CotF and humans is pretty attenuated, isn't it? 

Presumably, then, she is a wee albino human. Given that she was old in Aegon the Unlikely’s day, she is living an unnaturally long lifespan. I can only think of two ways folks in ASOIAF live unnaturally long lifespans, either Bloodraven's way of wedding a tree, or possibly Shiera Seastar's way of blood magic that Egg rumored about. (Is Melisandre unnaturally old, or just old and wearing a glamor?) 

Given her proximity to what is surely a weirwood cave and those red eye and other attributes associated with greenseeing, I'm thinking she's a greenseer. 

[Booknerd2]

So unfortunately, I took was forced by fate and being busy a long hiatus from the threads. There was also a little block involved too. Thank you Wizz, and the rest of the posters for getting me back on track with some really great posts. And I have to say too that parts of the show brought up major items, topics, issues, etc. to ponder again. 

Let me start Wizz with your first post in a recent bunch of posts. And some of what I have to say might seem familiar to what I've shared with you already.

So I started small. I sometimes need to go off and generalize and do like a personal generalized brainstorming session/sessions. I have been trying to think of any occasion in the series where I can clearly remember wind, and trying to let all you wrote regarding that to seep in. And I am nowhere near rereading parts (too many) pertaining to the many points that have been made. I did spend some time looking up "wind" in general to get a warmup going. I checked out cultural symbolism of wind in many cultures as a starting point. In general, I am going to just dive in the best I can. I never entertained it. Too occupied with the other events, mysteries, and personal dramas going on in a massive large scale series. My explanation of why will follow shortly. This why the RW is such an effective group effort. There is just some stuff that if its not my "thing," an area that struck a chord, or I can't make headway or even offer any kind of halfway decent comment for whatever reason, I just won't. Until something sort of hits. Half the time I can't comment right away on most of the stuff you or some others write because it takes me forever to let marinate. Having the busies doesn't help. When there is stuff that just socked me in the face and I never pondered, I become at a loss for words. Oh, but give me a prompt for Stranger, Big Nyms, Arya, the Hound, Gendry and other fav people or topics…I can't shut up. Lol. Yes, Big Nyms and Stranger are people to me. Yup.

I will put this next part in spoilers just in case because it occurs later.

Spoiler

I think in Mercy for the write up I did on RW, I know I pulled apart the meaning or what the mentions of fog struck in me. I would think being stuck in a fog also connotes a lack of wind. And yeah, right now a lost and not at full force Arya, has personally, emotionally, regarding identity, and psychologically has gotten the "wind knocked out of her." All the unfortunate Starks have. The wind has halted and they are down and out. I'm totally with you in thinking there is something to "divine winds"(the old gods and more maybe) and the powers of the Starks, whatever exactly it all may be. Really, even in the 6th book title, "Winter" denotes the Starks and their wolf/direwolf avatar which is them, a part of them; equates with being a Stark. So we get winds and Stark/wolves pretty much pointed out to us, I would think. 

And thank you again, because seriously a whole world of thought has been opened here.  I really left the 6th book title off my radar as something to ponder -  foolishly. I was in all honesty thinking: Uh, ok, duh. It just means winds as force, that the Stark rebound/comeback is near and it sets up in book 6. They will get some kind of momentum again. Their fortunes will turn for the better and they have a fighting chance again. I thought the title was great because it helped to know that after being kicked around for five books we get to see them rise again.

And I left it quite at that, well, until your posts and others that have posted too.

I will come back as more marination occurs and how to word what I want to say comes out.

Also, was there not a sort of wind shout out on the show?

 

 

[LongRider]

Hi Bookie!

So nice to hear from you. 

9 minutes ago, Booknerd2 said:

I really left the 6th book title off my radar as something to ponder -  foolishly. I was in all honesty thinking: Uh, ok, duh. It just means winds as force, that the Stark rebound/comeback is near and it sets up in book 6. They will get some kind of momentum again. Their fortunes will turn for the better and they have a fighting chance again. I thought the title was great because it helped to know that after being kicked around for five books we get to see them rise again.

I like your take on the wind in the Winds of Winter title.  If the Starks can use the force of the winds that could make for some goooooood times!

[Le Cygne]

Wizz, I missed that you had posted something new, I need to catch up! And so good to see Bookie again!